Yin chi number 3

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Level 72 use of spoiler tags, nesting quotes, and nesting spoilers! Wow, tech is impressed! (you want my job? lol)

 

Though also a little concerned about how long this takes you to be able to post stuff....

 

Edit: please don't reply, don't want to see anyone waste that long replying to me just having some fun with this .

 

Somebody posts 10 different times in response to one post -- ppl. request "consolidate your posts into 1, please." User then consolidates all his posts from the thread every time he posts. This to me indicates significant difficulty distinguishing between "it should be like this" and "it should be like this always, all the time, no matter what."

 

Said person then makes his mission defining polarities based on hearsay, second hand information, and tells people what to reject and accept as truth about said polarities, based on, again, on something someone said, yet obviously has issues differentiating implied and surface level statements. Hopefully, this will be taken into consideration by those trying to learn something about reality on the internet.

 

--

[Mal]

It's taken many hours to get the formatting right.

Though also a little concerned about how long this takes you to be able to post stuff....

Yes it really must take ages, I think leaving the already existing upstream posts and just using multi quote to put replys in one post would be alright.... but that's just me.

 

But look we have an actual conversation happening here - perhaps everyone could come to some sort of agreement about what to do - then we might not even need an admin decision

 

Thought ?

[dawei]

 

Yes it really must take ages, I think leaving the already existing upstream posts and just using multi quote to put replys in one post would be alright.... but that's just me.

 

But look we have an actual conversation happening here - perhaps everyone could come to some sort of agreement about what to do - then we might not even need an admin decision

 

Thought ?

 

Vey simple... we do exactly what the forum has provided us to do:

 

1. Reply to either single of multiple comments as you want,

2. but NEVER MOVE old replies. That is internet posting etiquette 101.

 

Why never move an old reply? (Does it really have to be pointed out... I guess so).

a. Internet conversations are similar to real-life conversations; they are linear. If you move replies you complete break the linearity and logic of the flow of communication.

b. Wastes time. The reason one will often reply to one comment is the default manner of linear posting is most efficient.

c. Wastes readers time. Readers are reading disjointed flow and cannot piece together the original flow anymore.

d. Wastes repliers time. Repliers end up with a hugh reply that they do not want and cannot easily edit. The default manner of linear posting/reply is broken.

e. A person moving their posts completely together 'litters' the thread with empty place holders which disconnect the flow and force the focus of the thread on themself and their replies... this is often a tell-tale sign of a troller who likes the attention.

 

When the mods said to 'consolidate replies', it was in reference to NEW REPLIES... Now, we have the option again to do it separately as they removed the dafault consolidation.

 

In other words, they have restored the original functionality of a month or more ago.

 

summary reminder:

1. Reply to either single of multiple comments as you want,

2. but NEVER MOVE old replies. That is internet posting etiquette 101.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I know, we could add a new board feature where members can't edit their posts after say about a half an hour time limit....

 

JOKING!

 

*ducks*

[JohnC]

If Chang did a television interview and told you you were incorrect, you'd invent reasons why he was a liar or a con artist.

 

You get that you are doing the same thing right? That as much as we cite something different, you come back with what you believe as evidence. That it won't go anywhere but in a circle.

 

The bottom line is that it comes down to a choice about what you believe, and then respecting others beliefs.

You believe one thing about yin chi, and we believe something separate.

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I'll respect your opinions, so please respect ours.

 

Although jumping into threads and telling people they are wrong in separate systems, and in general saying that 'THIS is how the world works and everyone that believes anything opposite is WRONG' probably won't get you very far...

 

John

Edited November 26, 2013 by JohnC

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Yes it really must take ages, I think leaving the already existing upstream posts and just using multi quote to put replys in one post would be alright.... but that's just me.

 

But look we have an actual conversation happening here - perhaps everyone could come to some sort of agreement about what to do - then we might not even need an admin decision

 

Thought ?

 

Hmmm, if posts are consolidated, perhaps just every 10 posts into one? Instead of every single post.

[xor]

There may be a misunderstanding, I haven't done Stillness Movement. Apart from that I don't speculate on what my teacher might have been told. I gauge anyone on what he says by what he can demonstrate or in some cases if I have that experience he is talking about there is no need if I believe he can get there...

[abandonhope]

Are there any members of the Mo Pai on here?

Yes if there are any members of Mopai on here will you PM me. Thankyou

[Mal]

My thoughts.

 

 

Putting in the effort to format it is mostly done now. It's not that big of an inconvenience on my end at this point.

 

I am not comfortable at all not combining my posts, I would rather have one post and zero possibility I can be accused of spamming too many posts.

 

These guys are going to bang the war drums and accuse me of anything they can to stop me from discrediting their teacher. No matter what I do, bloody murder will be screamed because it's almost heresy to question anything this guy says.

 

I would rather not give them ANY ammo to say I am spamming.

 

I say he is flat out wrong on this topic, and every time it is brought up again I will disagree with it.

 

This is one of the most fundamentally important issues in energy cultivation I am aware of.

 

It's not my intention to spam, harass, bother, troll or whatever anyone here, but this is really important.

I'm not sure I understand

"every time it is brought up again I will disagree with it."

followed by

"It's not my intention to spam, harass, bother, troll or whatever anyone here, but this is really important"

 

because it seems that they (the members here) understand that you point of view is different to theirs.

 

What is the benefit of "every time it is brought up again I will disagree with it." to TTB?

[xor]

If Jim were still around I think he'd disagree with you on that, he accomplished what many Indonesian students couldn't.

 

Didn't someone quote Magus of Java saying JC sent level three students to China to look for others? So there were many above him if we believe that.

[gramp]

Hello More_Pie_Guy,

 

I missed the posts where you described your experience with Ya Mu's system. I wanted to compare your experience with my experience.

 

You appear to be a very dedicated cultivator. You probably did very well with Ya Mu's system? But, perhaps, you did even better with Mo Pai?

 

I hate to see any of these systems get disrespected... Many serious cultivators did not survive the "Cultural Revolution." (Total dead in China and Territories: 77 Million dead. More than World War II alone.) Let us honor the dead, our respective Lineages, our respective technologies. Our systems have developed under different conditions, and for different purposes. Let us respect each other, and learn from each other.

 

Permit me to direct your attention to my--apparently too subtle--hint on the nature of technology and ground wires:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31831-mo-pai-what-are-the-alternatives/page-28#entry491680

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31831-mo-pai-what-are-the-alternatives/page-34#entry492153

 

Both of our Lineages have powerful practitioners. Both our Lineages have suffered from repression. What logic is there in bashing each other? There are real problems to solve. Right now, I'd prefer to focus on the healing properties of my particular practice... I'd like to be prepared in case the World goes completely mad again: there are many injured and sick along with the dead if that were to happen.

 

We honor your Lineage. Please honor our Lineage.

[Mal]

It is blatant disinformation, to the level of absurdity.

 

Picture if you will that you are on an forum about airplanes, and one of the members posts a picture of his car and claims it is in actuality a Gulfstream G650, not a car as others wrongfully claim, and that he can indeed fly this "car" airplane in the air.

 

Somehow or another he convinces a good portion of the people there that everyone who is talking about cars means airplanes.

 

You establish that it isn't a prank being played, that somehow this guy has convinced people all cars now are airplanes, and there is no such thing as a car.

 

Now imagine when you try to provide evidence for why this is absurd, the group gathers together plugs their ears with their fingers and hums the national anthem of Ireland.

Well in that case I would probably harmonize with their singing and wander off as soon as I could Because I would truly doubt that anything I said was ever going to change their opinion - what others want to believe is up to them.

[tongkosong]

Hello More_Pie_Guy,

 

I missed the posts where you described your experience with Ya Mu's system. I wanted to compare your experience with my experience.

 

You appear to be a very dedicated cultivator. You probably did very well with Ya Mu's system? But, perhaps, you did even better with Mo Pai?

 

I hate to see any of these systems get disrespected... Many serious cultivators did not survive the "Cultural Revolution." (Total dead in China and Territories: 77 Million dead. More than World War II alone.) Let us honor the dead, our respective Lineages, our respective technologies. Our systems have developed under different conditions, and for different purposes. Let us respect each other, and learn from each other.

 

Permit me to direct your attention to my--apparently too subtle--hint on the nature of technology and ground wires:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31831-mo-pai-what-are-the-alternatives/page-28#entry491680

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31831-mo-pai-what-are-the-alternatives/page-34#entry492153

 

Both of our Lineages have powerful practitioners. Both our Lineages have suffered from repression. What logic is there in bashing each other? There are real problems to solve. Right now, I'd prefer to focus on the healing properties of my particular practice... I'd like to be prepared in case the World goes completely mad again: there are many injured and sick along with the dead if that were to happen.

 

We honor your Lineage. Please honor our Lineage.

 

Please understand that More Pie Guy does not represent Mopai or its views. He was taught by Jim, who was an outdoor student of Mopai. I feel that none of us should be able to have the final authority on what is Yin or what is being taught in a school. I am not worthy or knowledgable enough to represent Mopai or John Chang's views. Unless a student is given authority by the master of a school to represent the school's ideas and views, I feel it is better to keep our opinion to ourselves and maybe learn from others. In my opinion, the Magus of Java was never intended by John Chang to be the bible on everything Neigong related, but, I am not saying that everything in the book is false.

 

As to More Pie Guy's opinion to Jim's accomplishments (compared to the indoor Indonesian students), I would say it is good to have a high opinion on your teacher, but do not do that while belittling others' accomplishments. This put you and Jim in a bad light because your ignorance shows your arrogance. Instead of arguing and promoting your views, More Pie Guy, it would be better use of your time to further your practice. I humbly hope that if you insist on continuing your arguments, please avoid using Mopai's name or John Chang's. Remember Jim's conversation with John Chang was mostly done through an interpreter, a non-professional interpreter at that.

[Brian]

Thank you, tongkosong.

 

_/|\_

[JohnC]

I'm not giving an opinion on the matter, I am stating reality as it is.

 

Your version of it.

And so are we... albeit with more acceptance of others opinions.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I see you as spreading mis-information.

 

It's clear to me you aren't interested in debate, or actually looking at the issue.

Please don't post in any stillness movement threads, we aren't interested in your opinions about SM.

 

John

[Brian]

Hello More_Pie_Guy,

 

I missed the posts where you described your experience with Ya Mu's system. I wanted to compare your experience with my experience.

 

You appear to be a very dedicated cultivator. You probably did very well with Ya Mu's system? But, perhaps, you did even better with Mo Pai?

 

I hate to see any of these systems get disrespected... Many serious cultivators did not survive the "Cultural Revolution." (Total dead in China and Territories: 77 Million dead. More than World War II alone.) Let us honor the dead, our respective Lineages, our respective technologies. Our systems have developed under different conditions, and for different purposes. Let us respect each other, and learn from each other.

 

Permit me to direct your attention to my--apparently too subtle--hint on the nature of technology and ground wires:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31831-mo-pai-what-are-the-alternatives/page-28#entry491680

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31831-mo-pai-what-are-the-alternatives/page-34#entry492153

 

Both of our Lineages have powerful practitioners. Both our Lineages have suffered from repression. What logic is there in bashing each other? There are real problems to solve. Right now, I'd prefer to focus on the healing properties of my particular practice... I'd like to be prepared in case the World goes completely mad again: there are many injured and sick along with the dead if that were to happen.

 

We honor your Lineage. Please honor our Lineage.

 

For clarity, gramps, it is important to note that MPG has NO first-hand knowledge of the Stillness-Movement system whatsoever.

[Green Tiger]

Even if studies are performed that show a statistical improvement beyond placebo, it's really hard to honestly say if said faith healing really had much more of an effect than the persons own belief and attitude.

 

We could take a random sampling of participants and perform a double-blind trial and I'm confident the results would be well above placebo, but no such trial has been performed, so far as I know.

 

Would probably be higher on my 'to do' list if I were interested in convincing skeptics. I'm more interested in developing skillz

Edited November 26, 2013 by Green Tiger

[Green Tiger]

That may be the case, but placebo effect is also correlated to the amount of belief and enthusiasm a patient has that said placebo is going to heal them. The mind is a powerful thing.

 

 

We could take a random sampling of participants and perform a double-blind trial and I'm confident the results would be well above placebo, but no such trial has been performed, so far as I know.

 

Would probably be higher on my 'to do' list if I were interested in convincing skeptics. I'm more interested in developing skillz

 

Presumably, the random sampling of people would include plenty of participants who were completely oblivious. Few to no true believers would be involved, I suspect.

[Brian]

Correct meditation while being grounded to the earth.

 

During meditation you will absorb as much yin energy at the perineum as you gather at the lower dan tien, assuming you are grounded to the earth.

 

The lower dan tien after filled full of yang chi, compressed as much as possible, and cut lose, it is sent down to the perineum where it attaches to the yin center there, they are brought back to the original location and forced together.

 

After that you can directly perceive yin energy.

I think this is important -- you are saying here, in unambiguous terms (and you have said this repeatedly in other locations less succinctly), that yin energy can be directly perceived after it is joined with yang energy in the dan tien, correct? That a proper cultivation method will allow one to gather yin energy before being able to sense it and that after it is fused with yang chi that yin chi can be directly perceived?

[JohnC]

No John, it's not my version, it's how it is.

 

Even if you assume mo pai is a hoax, works with imaginary energies, has no reality to it whatsoever... By the very manner they are defining what they call yin chi, describe how it does and does not work, it's mechanics, etc. It cannot be the same energy described in SM.

 

There is no other side of the story, there is no opinion here to it.

 

This is a fact, is a fact, is a fact, is a fact.

 

What I don't get is why on earth if you have so much disdane and disgust for the mo pai system, do you feel the need to continue to argue that YOUR system uses the same energy it describes as yin chi.

 

If it's worthless, bogus, doesn't know what it's talking about, why is it you are so convinced that your system and it both are labeling yin chi to be the same thing.... ESPECIALLY since everything about the nature of yin energy as described by both systems is completely at odds with one another.

 

This doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I have complete respect for the system of Mo pai.

 

We aren't talking about the system of Mo pai, or what mo pai considers yin chi.

We are talking about your lack of respect for others to believe something other than you, whether it's fact, fiction, or somewhere in between.

 

What I have disdain for is your disrespect of our choice to believe something. Even while we are respecting the fact that you are believing something different. It's called trolling. What you are doing is the same as a religious extremist, making sure that we all know the 'truth'.

 

Generally shitting on everyone else's opinion, and pushing your own in the name of 'It's a fact!!!'

I'm not interested in your 'facts'

 

You can call it fact as much as you want. Doesn't change whether it is or isn't.

Hundreds of years ago, fact was the world was flat.

 

John

Edited November 26, 2013 by JohnC

[Green Tiger]

Even if this were the case it wouldn't impress me more than reiki, or faith healing. I want to see measurable electromagnetic anomalies, with scientists and medical doctors present, I want to see the subject thoroughly checked for devices which might be used to perpetuate a hoax.

 

 

Yes . . . the hallmark of scientific medical study is not actually the double-blind trial with a randomly selected participant pool . . . it's the presence of scientists and medical doctors . . .

 

Electromagnetic anomalies are another topic entirely. I was talking about a trial to study the effectiveness of a chi-based healing technique.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Do placebos work on horses? 'cause SM medicine does.

 

I think the claims that the medicine is placebo is actually even more ill founded than the claims here about yin chi. The effectiveness of it is documented. I remember saying in one of the other yin chi threads that MPG should ask for those stats from Brion, rather than making more untrue statements. That would have been simple, however, apparently too difficult for someone who prefers to trash-talk rather than do a simple investigation of the subject he's talking about by asking someone who is only an email message away. Simply willful arrogance and ignorance.

 

Anyways, talk all you want about whatever you want MPG, your posts and posting style simply discredit yourself further and reveal the true light of everything else you've said about anything - ill-informed and worthless opinions coming from someone who can't understand basic instructions on how to post in an internet forum, yet goes on a mission based on a few abstract bits of guidance he received from lower level students of a system he is not even affiliated with.

 

Whatever dude.

[gramp]

Hello More_Pie_Guy,

I suspected the following: Your actions and claims do not represent the practices of either system or Lineage.

Now, based on information provided by my Teacher and several students--and by actual students in your claimed study area--I find more evidence that Your actions and claims do not represent the practices of either system or Lineage.

I am a Westerner. I begrudge the fact that Your actions and claims continue to make Westerners look selfish.

By the way, My Experience with Yin Qi does NOT resemble a bird or a desk. I have attempted to read the remainder of your Manifesto, but more important duties are at hand.

I am reminded of the ancient maxim:

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:15-16

 

 

15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.† 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.† 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.† 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

† 7:15 Because they can easily deceive others, those who put on a show of virtue or religion are more dangerous than those who are evil outright. Thus, we must be all the more cautious among those who are outwardly virtuous.

Nelson, Thomas (2008-02-28). The Orthodox Study Bible: Ancient Christianity Speaks to Today's World (p. 1280). Matthew 7:15-23. Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.

 

 

[Brian]

I think this is important -- you are saying here, in unambiguous terms (and you have said this repeatedly in other locations less succinctly), that yin energy can be directly perceived after it is joined with yang energy in the dan tien, correct? That a proper cultivation method will allow one to gather yin energy before being able to sense it and that after it is fused with yang chi that yin chi can be directly perceived?

Let's say for instance that another method instructs practitioners to meditate on their roof sitting on a pillow, with no grounding wire to absorb yin chi.

 

Even if they claim that the first step is mixing yin and yang, from the very beginning of the practice, they are not.

 

If they are stating yin chi can pulled in ungrounded while in mid flight on an airplane, they are also not working with yin chi as defined by mo pai.

 

You can claim to be mixing concrete and water to make blocks, but if you have only air and water you won't be making much concrete no matter what your first step is.

So can yin energy be directly detected or not? (Ignoring for the moment that sitting on the ground doesn't put the perineum in contact with dirt, or that your depiction of the mo pai cultivation method requires one to sit bare-assed in raw dirt to work (unless you use a wire), or that dirt is actually a pretty lousy conductor itself...)

 

IF someone is able to gather yin chi (say by sitting on the ground and meditating) and then merges the yin and yang energy, would it be perceptible?

[JohnC]

 

It's a fact.

 

Even if you start with the assumption that mo pai is wrong in this matter, that what they describe as yin chi is bogus, it's mechanics are bogus, the whole thing is a hoax, and made up imaginary nonsense. That doesn't mean SM and MP are describing the same energy when they talk about yin chi.

Your right, it could be completely different. Might be the same too.

 

I believe that for the mo pai system they have you sit on the ground to gather yin chi. As far as I know, I don't practice mo pai.

 

I also believe that in our system it's not necessary to sit on the ground.

 

Not mutually exclusive in my mind, and not a 'fact' because you and your system says so.

 

I further believe that there may be other ways to even further cultivate all that there is to cultivate, yin chi included. Things no one knows yet.

 

I don't need to use the ignore button, I respect your choice in your decision and it doesn't bug me that you state it. I am not interested in you shitting on SM or SM threads though.

 

If you can't respect what we believe please abstain from commenting in SM threads, and use the ignore button as much as possible.

 

I wish you the best on your path as well.

 

John

Edited November 26, 2013 by JohnC