Yidams in Vajrayana

[Aetherous]

What do you guys think of this perspective?

Also, feel free to discuss whatever you like regarding yidams in this thread.

[Cheshire Cat]

Nice article

 

The yidam practice produces a strong connection with the Guru. Even if you're not 100% convinced about the "qualities" of the Guru, you'll end up worshiping him as a Buddha.

Therefore, be careful about your Lama.

 

Then, I want to ask a question.

According to taoist healing arts, the negative emotions shorten lifespan.

What about the wrathful deities who work with negative emotions?

Imho, it's not healthy, unless one know the "trick" to use the power of the negativity without being afflicted.

Lets' talk about anger, for example... what's the trick?

[C T]

Nice article

 

The yidam practice produces a strong connection with the Guru. Even if you're not 100% convinced about the "qualities" of the Guru, you'll end up worshiping him as a Buddha.

Therefore, be careful about your Lama.

 

Then, I want to ask a question.

According to taoist healing arts, the negative emotions shorten lifespan.

What about the wrathful deities who work with negative emotions?

Imho, it's not healthy, unless one know the "trick" to use the power of the negativity without being afflicted.

Lets' talk about anger, for example... what's the trick?

whats the trick?

 

When a practitioner who is prone to anger leading to destructive outcomes begins to work with a yidam (for example, a wrathful deity), after a period of cultivating the awakened qualities, he or she will be able to use the sheer force of the energy (behind the anger) for immediate activation of pure intention to bring other beings to the shores of liberation.

 

With practice, one learns to connect more and more with the essence, and less and less with the reactive emotions.

 

Also, the essence of all yidams is utterly pure and of one taste -- pure in the beginning, pure in the middle and pure in the end.

 

Therefore, when anger arises, if there is recognition of mind essence (meaning, pure perception arises simultaneously at the moment of recognition), then its immediately seen and felt as primordial energy (neither good nor bad), which can then be harnessed for increasing one's bodhicitta; conversely, if there is no recognition, then it is said that that will lead to tainted perception followed by ignorance, delusion, activating the rest of the links (12 in all), and one gets drawn into further negativity by being caught in the wheel of rebirth (rebirth here means the intents of ignorance leading to the next result, which is also ignorant in nature). The kindness of the Guru lets us see that it is possible to break this chain, and shows us the way by blessing us with a personal yidam.

 

Thats why, for the above reason, all the masters have vehemently emphasized that there is no fundamental difference between samsara and nirvana. They sometimes remind us that the only difference between a buddha and us is simply one of recognition. Therefore, when it is said that a buddha is a fully awakened one, it means that there is no longer any moment or possibility for impure perception to arise.

 

For someone like me, for example, with layers of delusion, there are more moments of failure to recognize mind essence than otherwise, therefore it is crucial that i have to cultivate with a yidam. Without working with a yidam, the process/path of arriving at this experiential understanding leading to insight can be difficult. The proper practice with a yidam helps to cut through these obstacles (ignorance) leading to purer and purer fields of perception.

 

(Apologies for the ramble) _/\_

[Cheshire Cat]

When a practitioner who is prone to anger leading to destructive outcomes begins to work with a yidam (for example, a wrathful deity), after a period of cultivating the awakened qualities, he or she will be able to use the sheer force of the energy (behind the anger) for immediate activation of pure intention to bring other beings to the shores of liberation.

 

In my case, practicing with a wrathful deity produced a sudden increase of anger (I'm a calm person by nature).

[C T]

In my case, practicing with a wrathful deity produced a sudden increase of anger (I'm a calm person by nature).

Did you consult with anyone as to why this happened?

[RongzomFan]

There are connections between yidam and bardo.

[Cheshire Cat]

Did you consult with anyone as to why this happened?

 

No, the Lama is almost inaccessible.

 

Anger can be used for magical purposes and I understand why certain yogis may benefit from it, but it's not good for health on the long term.

Edited November 28, 2013 by DAO rain TAO

[yabyum24]

The article is a standard Vajrayana teaching. The Yidam is the main 'generation stage' practice with a selection of The Six Yogas of Naropa cultivated for 'completion stage' - depending on the specifics of the tantra.

[Cheshire Cat]

There are connections between yidam and bardo.

 

 

[Aetherous]

I certainly don't know, but from what I've read the "vajra wrath" actually gets rid of anger, and is peaceful and compassionate by nature. On the other hand, I can definitely see why a wrathful form would cause actual wrath like anger to arise...only makes sense!

[Aetherous]

The yidam practice produces a strong connection with the Guru. Even if you're not 100% convinced about the "qualities" of the Guru, you'll end up worshiping him as a Buddha.

Therefore, be careful about your Lama.

 

This is something I am personally trying to reconcile. In my religion especially, I'm not allowed to worship or bow down to any person, or any "idol"...and that is not something I'm willing to go back on (consider it being similar to samaya).

 

So the article was nice in that it's made clear, this yidam is just your visualization and mind creation, and is a symbolic tool. I can work with that. I can work with prostrations as being purification of oneself, instead of them being worship of someone or something.

 

I'm interested in exploring Tibetan Buddhism, but it's tough when we're told to prostrate to the yidam, supplicate or basically pray to, seek refuge, receive empowerments from, etc...the yidam or the root guru. Hard to reconcile those views with the views presented in the article.

 

Beyond my personal issues with this, which aren't meaningful to many other people I'm sure...I'm also interested in hearing about people's experiences with yidams. For instance, apparently some people experience these things as real after a period of practice, and receive actual guidance from their yidams. That would be very interesting.

[yabyum24]

it's tough when we're told to prostrate to the yidam, supplicate or basically pray to, seek refuge, receive empowerments from, etc...the yidam or the root guru. Hard to reconcile those views with the views presented in the article.

That's a big problem within Tibetan Buddhism for many westerners. Followers are unequivocal that one must view one's teacher as the purest manifestation of Buddha, anything less and there can be no result to speak of.

 

Once he is thus seen, he is utterly beyond reproach and one cannot questions instructions etc., as it demonstrates doubt, which you should not have.

 

In old Tibet seekers would often wander from place to place, getting to know several teachers before finding one they could implicitly trust. That kind of sensible approach is now only available to wealthy jet-setters with time on their hands or those in California , everyone else tends to follow whichever 'resident' guru covers their patch - if you're even lucky enough to have one of those.

 

Such a situation can quickly get quite 'Cult-like' and claustrophobic. Senior disciples and the inner circle pulling the strings whilst their minions operate the cash tills.

[RongzomFan]

That's a big problem within Tibetan Buddhism for many westerners. Followers are unequivocal that one must view one's teacher as the purest manifestation of Buddha, anything less and there can be no result to speak of.

 

Once he is thus seen, he is utterly beyond reproach and one cannot questions instructions etc., as it demonstrates doubt, which you should not have.

 

In old Tibet seekers would often wander from place to place, getting to know several teachers before finding one they could implicitly trust. That kind of sensible approach is now only available to wealthy jet-setters with time on their hands or those in California , everyone else tends to follow whichever 'resident' guru covers their patch - if you're even lucky enough to have one of those.

 

Such a situation can quickly get quite 'Cult-like' and claustrophobic. Senior disciples and the inner circle pulling the strings whilst their minions operate the cash tills.

 

 

I don't see what the problem is.

 

A mere instant of having considered the Lama to be a human being

is said to postpone spiritual attainment (siddhi) by years and months.

-Dudjom Rinpoche

 

seeing one’s teacher as an ordinary pandit, a sublime Arhat, a sublime Bodhisattva, a nirmanakaya Buddha, or even a sambhogakaya Buddha will not do: you have to see him as the dharmakaya Buddha. If you are able to do so and pray to him thus with unwavering devotion, the wisdom of realization can arise in your mind without your having to rely on any other factor as a path.

-Khenpo Ngawang Pelzang (He has multiple pages emphasizing the same point)

[RongzomFan]

Such a situation can quickly get quite 'Cult-like' and claustrophobic. Senior disciples and the inner circle pulling the strings whilst their minions operate the cash tills.

 

Money is energy. Its not negative or positive.

 

All religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism use money.

[RongzomFan]

Followers are unequivocal that one must view one's teacher as the purest manifestation of Buddha, anything less and there can be no result to speak of.

 

You must view the guru as the dharmakaya. And as more important than any yidam.

 

Read A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher.

 

Both Dudjom Rinpoche and Khenpo Ngawang Palzang are samyaksambuddhas who finished the path well within their lifetimes. Not to mention both come from major lineages.

Edited November 29, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Seeker of Wisdom]

it's tough when we're told to prostrate to the yidam, supplicate or basically pray to, seek refuge, receive empowerments from, etc...the yidam or the root guru. Hard to reconcile those views with the views presented in the article.

In Buddhism, devotional practice is not with the idea that some other being is so great, we are so lowly, and we should beg that being to swoop down and 'save' us from our evil nature.

 

In prayer, prostration and so on, what is being venerated isn't the being/yidam, although if it is a real being we have respect. The real focus is on Buddha-nature, which is also our nature, although in us it is dormant due to the obscurations.

 

It is not a low being sucking up to a high one, hoping for pity. It is more like a guy who's just joined a gym looking at the hench guys - or in the case of a yidam, imagining themselves muscular - and saying to himself, 'I can and will become strong!' There is no expectation of divine intervention.

 

There is a meaningful self-respect here. Acknowledgement that we aren't there yet, some healthy willingness to face our flaws - but with the underlying conviction that our nature is at base free of these flaws, inspiration from respecting beings who have freed themselves - or from imagining ourselves as the yidam - and the determination to meet that potential.

 

There is a difference between seeing a Lama (and ourselves) as fundamentally a Buddha, and currently a Buddha. The former is a healthy relationship of respect, based on a strong understanding of emptiness and Buddha-nature. The Lama's flaws are empty impositions on a deeper truth - as are ours. The latter is just ignoring all the flaws of another person, pure delusion.

 

When prostrating, the downwards motion is a symbolic throwing of all our energy into the goal of enlightenment and the upwards motion is our conviction that we will achieve it and rise up from our sleep.

 

When taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha; this isn't sucking up to outside forces hoping they will do the work for us. It is more like identifying a course that we can follow to get where we want to be, reinforcing our focus on reliable guides, paths and milestones so we are intent on what we are doing.

 

Such is my simplistic understanding.

[Simple_Jack]

This is something I am personally trying to reconcile. In my religion especially, I'm not allowed to worship or bow down to any person, or any "idol"...and that is not something I'm willing to go back on (consider it being similar to samaya).

 

Maybe you should consider sticking with Abrahamic religions instead of reconciling the differences.

 

I don't see what the problem is.

 

It's the distrust with Tibetan feudalistic power structures which are reminiscent of the Vatican Church

[RongzomFan]

Maybe you should consider sticking with Abrahamic religions instead of reconciling the differences.

 

 

It's the distrust with Tibetan feudalistic power structures which are reminiscent of the Vatican Church

 

Different schools such as Kagyu or Sakya held political power different times.

 

Nothing at all like The Vatican.

 

 

[Aetherous]

Maybe you should consider sticking with Abrahamic religions instead of reconciling the differences.

 

Do you think the differences are irreconcilable? The only way this would be the case, is if a Tibetan Buddhist absolutely must worship yidams and gurus or lamas...if there absolutely isn't another way to view it and practice.

 

It's not that I want to combine religions into a mish-mash thing...it's just that I want to explore Tibetan Buddhism as well, which can only really be done through practice.

 

Also, I hope my issue with this won't dominate the thread, which is just about yidams. I suppose I won't discuss it much more in order to keep things on topic, and not on the topic of another religion. Thanks people who responded!

[gatito]

That's a big problem within Tibetan Buddhism for many westerners. Followers are unequivocal that one must view one's teacher as the purest manifestation of Buddha, anything less and there can be no result to speak of.

 

Once he is thus seen, he is utterly beyond reproach and one cannot questions instructions etc., as it demonstrates doubt, which you should not have.

 

In old Tibet seekers would often wander from place to place, getting to know several teachers before finding one they could implicitly trust. That kind of sensible approach is now only available to wealthy jet-setters with time on their hands or those in California , everyone else tends to follow whichever 'resident' guru covers their patch - if you're even lucky enough to have one of those.

 

Such a situation can quickly get quite 'Cult-like' and claustrophobic. Senior disciples and the inner circle pulling the strings whilst their minions operate the cash tills.

 

That resonates very closely with my own experiences of Tibetan Buddhism, which, frankly, I found deeply shocking.

[Simple_Jack]

This Tibetan feudalism stuff is pure Chinese propaganda. I'm surprised you fell for it.

 

Maybe you meant guru-student relationship which is directly from India.

 

I'm just commenting from the perspective of the average Westerner.

[Simple_Jack]

Do you think the differences are irreconcilable?

 

::Shrugs::

 

That's for you to decide.

[RongzomFan]

That resonates very closely with my own experiences of Tibetan Buddhism, which, frankly, I found deeply shocking.

 

If you found Tibetan Buddhism shocking, go to your local Hindu temple and get your mind blown.

[gatito]

Ok, which was what?

 

Spending a day at Lerab Ling temple in France and several visits to a centre in England and seeing things that are entirely consistent with this: -

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32739-yidams-in-vajrayana/?p=500206

 

(thetaobums.com/topic/32739-yidams-in-vajrayana/?p=500206)

[yabyum24]

I don't see what the problem is.

 

A mere instant of having considered the Lama to be a human being

is said to postpone spiritual attainment (siddhi) by years and months.

-Dudjom Rinpoche

 

seeing one’s teacher as an ordinary pandit, a sublime Arhat, a sublime Bodhisattva, a nirmanakaya Buddha, or even a sambhogakaya Buddha will not do: you have to see him as the dharmakaya Buddha. If you are able to do so and pray to him thus with unwavering devotion, the wisdom of realization can arise in your mind without your having to rely on any other factor as a path.

-Khenpo Ngawang Pelzang (He has multiple pages emphasizing the same point)

Like I said, in Tibet people came from a Buddhist background and were in a position to judge between Lamas. Many studied under several before finally committing. They got close to their Lamas and were left in no doubt as to their authenticity.

 

Contrast that with many westerners whose first point of contact with Buddhism could be a strongly devotional group of other westerners at a Buddhist centre someplace.

 

The newbie knows zero about Buddhism but is told from day one that he must cultivate unshakable faith in the guru (who he may never have met, or only fleetingly). Sorry, but this is worse than second-rate. If you can't use your own powers of discrimination, how can you ever have more than a fanatic's shallow conviction about what you are involved in?

 

Now lets apply this logic to the thousands of devoted followers of the founder of the Gelug lineage. Would you advise them to immediately cease viewing their Lamas as the dharmakaya?

 

The quotes above become self-defeating when the discriminating mind is abandoned.