Yidams in Vajrayana

[Simple_Jack]

The newbie knows zero about Buddhism but is told from day one that he must cultivate unshakable faith in the guru (who he may never have met, or only fleetingly). Sorry, but this is worse than second-rate. If you can't use your own powers of discrimination, how can you ever have more than a fanatic's shallow conviction about what you are involved in?

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=14002&start=40:

 

Malcolm: Hence the detailed and pointed instructions in Vajrayāna texts about taking extreme care in choosing one's guru; the kind of guru to avoid, and the pitfalls of picking a bad one....

 

....as you know, the guru considered the primary refuge in Vajrayāna because that is the person from whom one receives both the ripening empowerments, and more importantly, the liberating instructions.

[RongzomFan]

There are almost no bad Tibetan lamas around.

 

This isn't scandal filled Zen.

[gatito]

~~~Ad hominem~~~

Gatito,

 

A vague claim of cultish atmosphere which is present in every religious gathering, Hindu, Christian etc. doesn't sound like much.

Especially since you yourself follow the most dubious internet neoadvaitins around.

 

~~~Ad hominem~~~

Nothing "vague" about it - it's very specific and certainly, several other people here seem to understand the point(s) clearly. You are, in fact, only demonstrating the point that some of these followers are simply brainwashed into undiscriminating adulation.

 

Also, I don't follow anyone myself - see my tips for finding a Teacher in my signature

 

Furthermore, consider that I've also made it clear that I'm completely against charging for the teaching of Advaita - so, name one "internet neoadvaitin" who doesn't charge for their teachings. (Hope that you can follow the logic here.)

Edited November 29, 2013 by gatito

[gatito]

Lets dissect this magical post that gatito thinks is so great:

 

 

Again, what kind of illogical shit is this?

 

The whole point of Tibetan Buddhism is to become a samyakbuddha like your lineage forebearers.

 

If you don't believe in that sort of thing, then you have no reason to go into tibetan buddhism in the first place.

 

 

You keep stating this, as if its fact. Do you have a reference?

 

Anyone with internet access can research teachers. What a load of yet more completely illogical shit.

 

 

This sounds like personal opinon, and/or unsubstantiated claims

 

How could anyone fail to recognise this as anything but a scholarly, erudite, and appropriately-worded rebuttal?

[RongzomFan]

Actually, it's not an argument. I'm stating my opinions based on my experiences and my observations and it seems that a number of other people are also aware of pitfalls to which you appear to be blind.

 

(BTW kindly note that I edited the post that you've just quoted to read "some" rather than "many")

Where are your experiences and observations?

 

You mentioned you visited Lerab Ling once, and then you linked to someone's elses illogical post:

 

Spending a day at Lerab Ling temple in France and several visits to a centre in England and seeing things that are entirely consistent with this: -

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32739-yidams-in-vajrayana/?p=500206

 

(thetaobums.com/topic/32739-yidams-in-vajrayana/?p=500206)

Edited November 29, 2013 by RongzomFan

[gatito]

All religions have money. The world operates on money.

 

If that's all you got, you got nothing.

Absolutely correct, that's why I'd strongly advise anyone to steer clear of all belief systems and to make the exploratory and experimentally-verifiable investigation into the true nature of Consciousness for themselves - as the Buddha apparently strongly advised.

 

Where are your experiences and observations?

 

You mentioned you visited Lerab Ling once, and then you linked to someone's elses illogical post:

Yes, as I said, I spent day at Lerab Ling AND made several visits to a temple in England, which were the basis for my observations and conclusions. Edited November 29, 2013 by gatito

[RongzomFan]

as the Buddha apparently strongly advised.

 

Whatever Buddha may or may not have said is irrelevant to the teachings of the Madhasiddhas i.e. Vajrayana.

[RongzomFan]

Absolutely correct, that's why I'd strongly advise anyone to steer clear of all belief systems and to make the exploratory and experimentally-verifiable investigation into the true nature of Consciousness for themselves - as the Buddha apparently strongly advised.

 

And I would advise people to investigate:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32153-mystical-buddhist-readings/

 

[gatito]

Yeah, yeah Tibetan Buddhism is full of bastards who are out to get you so caveat emptor and the first virtue of the path is discrimination etc. etc. . So what has all this got to do with yidams? Is there anyone with experience of yidam practice that is able to add anything without breaking samaya?

A bit too strongly worded perhaps?

 

However, I do take your point and perhaps this can now return to topic?

[RongzomFan]

Yes. unlike you, I don't need to rely on a religions (or any other belief system).

 

 

The whole point is to have rainbow body realization like Dudjom Rinpoche.

 

If you don't believe in that, then you shouldn't go into Tibetan Buddhism in the first place.

 

This is simple logic.

[RongzomFan]

 

You really shouldn't be posting this "stuff" in the Buddhist Forum then - should you?

 

If you don't even understand that Buddhadharma includes the teaching of the Mahasiddhas, then you really are starting from square one.

[RongzomFan]

OK stop filling this good thread with insults and crap or I will have to get it cut off into the pit

 

Tibetan Buddhism at it's core is Lamaism, for many who see this it can be shocking but that is how it has worked for many hundreds of years. Whether such Lamaism works in the west without many Lama's to choose from is a very important subject, at the moment it is debatable whether it can transfer well out of the native context it grew up in.

 

Indian Vajrayana is Lamaism too.

[RongzomFan]

Hinduism is Lamaism too.

 

Brahimin priests say to follow the guru.

[RongzomFan]

the native context it grew up in.

 

The rules of transmission, samaya etc. are from the primordial termas.

 

There is no native context. These things are not made by man.

[Aetherous]

Instead of pitting the thread, which is supposed to be about yidams, please moderators enforce people staying on topic and not spamming with multiple posts. Nothing against RongzomFan or anyone else. If people want a discussion about lamaism etc, please make a new thread? I am actually interested in a discussion on yidams. Maybe the thread could be split if it's not too much trouble.

[gatito]

OK stop filling this good thread with insults and crap or I will have to get it cut off into the pit

 

Tibetan Buddhism at it's core is Lamaism, for many who see this it can be shocking but that is how it has worked for many hundreds of years. Whether such Lamaism works in the west without many Lama's to choose from is a very important subject, at the moment it is debatable whether it can transfer well out of the native context it grew up in.

 

Also having read some of the supposedly "restricted" writings, I just found it an incredibly complex belief system with no basis in experimentally verifiable reality, so I question whether it ever actually "worked" (whatever that actually means in real terms).

[Aetherous]

No problemo! I appreciate your point of view on this, as well as everyone else.

[RongzomFan]

Absolutely correct, that's why I'd strongly advise anyone to steer clear of all belief systems and to make the exploratory and experimentally-verifiable investigation into the true nature of Consciousness for themselves

 

Just like you don't believe in Tibetan Buddhism, I don't believe in your Consciousness Neoadvaita stuff.

 

I am familiar with Neoadvaita, since I am a former neoadvaitin.

[Simple_Jack]

Absolutely correct, that's why I'd strongly advise anyone to steer clear of all belief systems and to make the exploratory and experimentally-verifiable investigation into the true nature of Consciousness for themselves - as the Buddha apparently strongly advised.

 

You mean like this?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32311-the-importance-of-bodhichitta-and-compassion/?p=496946

 

Lotus_Bitch wrote: Go tell an Advaitan that cit is conditioned by certain factors of mentality (nama) and materiality (rupa), dependent on contact to give rise to the 6 sense media and to practice by being mindful of the arising and passing of each. You will either get a confused look, be laughed at or both.

[yabyum24]

The whole point is to have rainbow body realization like Dudjom Rinpoche.

I wish you well in that RongzomFan. It's a worthy aim and I hope you achieve it.

[RongzomFan]

I wish you well in that RongzomFan. It's a worthy aim and I hope you achieve it.

 

If I found Buddhadharma when I was younger, then maybe it is possible.

 

I am aiming for liberation in the bardo.

[Simple_Jack]

If I found Buddhadharma when I was younger, then maybe it is possible.

 

I am aiming for liberation in the bardo.

 

Yup, most of us won't be able to achieve the body of light while still living...if we can even manage to achieve it during the dying process.

[gatito]

No problemo! I appreciate your point of view on this, as well as everyone else.

 

Thanks for indulging me Scotty

 

You mean like this?

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32311-the-importance-of-bodhichitta-and-compassion/?p=496946

 

Lotus_Bitch wrote: Go tell an Advaitan that cit is conditioned by certain factors of mentality (nama) and materiality (rupa), dependent on contact to give rise to the 6 sense media and to practice by being mindful of the arising and passing of each. You will either get a confused look, be laughed at or both.

 

I've no idea because I haven't got the inclination to plough through 13 pages of "stuff". Sorry.

 

However, you could read John Levy and Krishna Menon if you want to try to shoehorn Direct Path Advaita into Buddhism or vice-versa. I don't believe it will work though = and that's not because I think that there's any exclusivity in Direct Path Advaita, as opposed to Buddhism or any other valid system, but that they are different paths that could be be thought of as different languages. If anyone here is truly bilingual, they'll confirm that it's the common experience of those who are that it's impossible to translate accurately from one language to another: the world appears to be subtly different according to the language in which you think.

[Simple_Jack]

I've no idea because I haven't got the inclination to plough through 13 pages of "stuff". Sorry.

 

However, you could read John Levy and Krishna Menon if you want to try to shoehorn Direct Path Advaita into Buddhism or vice-versa. I don't believe it will work though = and that's not because I think that there's any exclusivity in Direct Path Advaita, as opposed to Buddhism or any other valid system, but that they are different paths that could be be thought of as different languages. If anyone here is truly bilingual, they'll confirm that it's the common experience of those who are that it's impossible to translate accurately from one language to another: the world appears to be subtly different according to the language in which you think.

 

They're different paths because they are predicated off of different views; the latter of which is dependent origination.

[gatito]

They're different paths because they are predicated off of different views; the latter of which is dependent origination.

 

I'm not clear what point you're trying to make here.

 

Is it that your viewpoint is right and everything else is wrong?