Buddhism and Taoism....

[ZenStatic]

Do they mix? Can someone really be a practitioner of both, or are they at odds with each other?

[beancurdturtle]

My opinion, for what it's worth.

 

Buddhism is focused on suffering. The objective is to create and live within a physical and spiritual framework aimed at the avoidance of suffering. The Noble Truths and 8-Fold Path are aimed at this objective - and if someone actualizes them they will be a contented and wonderful person indeed.

 

Original (Philosophical) Daoism is about knowing that everything is defined by and made manifest by it's complimentary opposite. So suffering cannot exist without ecstasy. The objective is to be accepting of both suffering and ecstasy (of all the opposites) and live in a way that achieves a balance between the opposites. By actualizing Daoist philosophy a kind of frictionless existence is born wherein the Daoist achieves benevolence, contentment, and harmony.

 

By my reckoning, an effort to avoid suffering will create friction with balance and doesn't integrate very well with a goal of attaining harmony through non-action. However, the kind of person that both paths aims to produce is very much the same. So from a forest vs. tree perspective there is a great deal of compatibility.

 

But that's only my opinion. And it's flavored by my Philosophical Daoist perspective.

[forestofsouls]

I asked a Taoist priest, Master Chen, this question. He said they conflict like going west to east as opposed to east to west. But he said the end goals were the same.

 

Personally, I like to practice Taoism (tai chi and chi kung) for health and Buddhism for the mind. One day, I may have to choose in order to take one approach whole heartedly, but fortunately, that day has not yet arrived.

[ZenStatic]

Is there any easy way to explain the differences in approach on reaching that goal?

[el_tortugo]

Do they mix? Can someone really be a practitioner of both, or are they at odds with each other?

 

"When we talk about the tantric world, we are talking about this visual, auditory, sensory world, which has not been explored or looked at properly. Nobody has bothered to actually experience it. People just take it for granted. We may have been interested in our world when we were little children, but then we were taught how to handle it by our parents. Our parents already had developed a system to deal with the world and to shield themselves from it at the same time. As we accepted that system, we lost contact with the world. We lost the freshness and curiosity of our infancy a long time ago. And now, although the world is full of all kinds of things, we find that in communicating with the world we are somewhat numb. There is numbness in our sight, numbness in our hearing, numbness in all our senses. It is as though we had been drugged. The reality of the world- the brilliance of red, the brightness of turquoise, the majesty of yellow, and the fantastic quality of green- has not been seen properly. We have been indoctrinated, or we have indoctrinated ourselves. The point of tantra is to reintroduce the world to us. A direct relationship between teacher and student is essential in Vajrayana Buddhism. People cannot even begin to practice tantra without making some connection with their teacher, their vajra, indestructible, master."

 

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche

[GrandTrinity]

AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF PRACTICE THERE IS NO SEPERATION. In the low level of these religions there is a huge gap. The religions are differerent, the practices are not.

 

Buddhism is upper two tan tiens and focused on afterlife and intention. Taoism is lower tan tien and focused on "now" and anything practical such as the body.

 

-paraphrase of Grandmaster Yuanming Zhang from our talk last weekend

[el_tortugo]

This book blends the two in a way if you like to check it out . . . Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation (Paperback)

by Wen-Kuang Chu

[hagar]

Do they mix? Can someone really be a practitioner of both, or are they at odds with each other?

 

Ofcourse you can be a practitioner of both. Buddhism and Taoism is smilar in just the same way as to vehicles are similar. They both have wheels and take you to the desired destination. They may run on different fuels and have different feel and built for different terrain, but they do have the same objective: get you to your destination, and to take the analogy further: they both take you "home". This is what these two traditions have in common: Revealing the underlying nature of everything, which is joy. A joy that is beyond suffering and avoidance of suffering. This joy is the joy you had as you entered this world. It is buddha nature and "returning to the source".

 

The ordinary conception of Buddhist practice and philosophy is the emphasis on suffering and impermanence.

What is apparent if you look deeper is that Buddhist teachers point to the nature of things, which is quite amoral, non-personal, yet highly focused on the opening up of the limited self to the suffering of others. On a very high level, Buddhism focus on working with energy. The energy of mind, of emotion and the transformation, purification and liberation of that energy which is the self, only to end up with the realization that the mind is the universe.

 

Through different methods, terminology, and traditions, that is what Taoist schools do as well. The only difference is that Taoists start with the body, and end up with the mind/heart, and often do not separate the two, while some Buddhist schools discard the body as unimportant and a hinderance to the cultivation of mind/heart. But what they both show is that a realized person is a manifestation of natural, inherent joy.

 

Now, I should probably put my money where my mouth is and start practicing instead of just referring...

 

h

[林愛偉]

They are totally opposite in methods of cultivating in terms of focus of mind. Daoism focuses on Duality, but to a certain extent. Duality is not the end all be all, and neither is emptiness. THis is what is usually misunderstood in Daoism.

Buddhism recognizes duality, but knows it isn't the end all be all, as well as emptiness not the end of it all as well. Buddhism is not all about suffering as well. Suffering as a focus in Buddhism is only a tool of perception to keep the mind in a manner of sincerity(concentration).

Buddhism is about non dual teachings.. which means dropping the view of duality. You may say there is duality, but that is not the original nature, and the labelling of Original Nature is only used as a focus of the mind. At some point it too must be dropped, along with the mind.

Daoism attains enlightenment, but it will take a long time through this path to attain complete pure enlightenment, enlightenment with no marks (no attachments) Becoming immortal doiesn't equal enlightenment.

Buddhism also uses cultivation of energy through postures, and movement. Nowadays, it is Taiji Quan. Buddhism cultivates both body and mind. Buddhist monks have l ived for over a few hundred years, as well as Daoist monks, and their knowledge is unfathomable.

Both are well manners of cultivation. One takes you directly and cultivates both mind and body...without the idea of their being separation, and the other cultivates mind and body through a longer route. If it may take one 2 lifetimes to attain enlightenment with Buddhism..in some cases, it may take one 5-10 lifetimes with Daoist cultivation... ofcourse it is given their karma, which is equivalent to one's mental abilities of understanding and cultivation skill.

THough the above statement is just to paint a picture, that outcome is totally based on one's own level of skill in cultivation, karma.

 

Buddhism is a complete system of cultivation, and so is Daoism. To say either one lacks something is to misunderstand. But it is proper to say that one is more direct in attaining complete pure enlightenment than the other. The more direct path is Buddhism, while the more longer path is Daoism. Daoism cultivates for celestial bodies, and power..and eventually reaching some stage of enlightenment, though not wrong, it is still not too ultimate. Yet that still depends on one's teacher, and their level of wisdom. It is not fixed in stone.

Buddhism, depending on one's concentration power, skill in means, transformation is sudden or gradual, and realization of non dual mind reveals itself.

 

Also, there really isn't a practicing of them both, for if y ou look at methods of cultivation for virtue, and wisdom, patience and compassion, they are similar. But the mental foundation in cultivation is two different paths inwhich Buddhism is faster in attaining than Daoism. Methods that are cultivated in Daoism are simialr to that of certain cultivation schools in Buddhism. One gets you there faster.. but that is dependant upon one's karma and cultivation.

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 15, 2007 by 林愛偉

[林愛偉]

AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF PRACTICE THERE IS NO SEPERATION. In the low level of these religions there is a huge gap. The religions are differerent, the practices are not.

 

Buddhism is upper two tan tiens and focused on afterlife and intention. Taoism is lower tan tien and focused on "now" and anything practical such as the body.

 

-paraphrase of Grandmaster Yuanming Zhang from our talk last weekend

 

 

 

Buddhism does not only focus on two dantian, it also cultivates the lower dantian. That is where the breathing cultivation takes place. haha

 

It is in seeing the conditions of the mind of the past, present and future, and then realizing that there is only now, and that even now cannot be measured. So that means there is no distinction of a Now, a past or a future.

Becuase of the human mind and its conditions, we use words such as Now, and past , present. But neither of them exist, nor do not exist, and neither of the two are real. Buddhism is of no marks. Original nature is of no marks. There is impermanence to those who believe in permanence, and permanence for those who believe in impermanence. haha

The mind is liek that until it isn't.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 15, 2007 by 林愛偉

[masongoliver]

Buddhism does not only focus on two dantian, it also cultivates the lower dantian. That is where the breathing cultivation takes place. haha

 

It is in seeing the conditions of the mind of the past, present and future, and then realizing that there is only now, and that even now cannot be measured. So that means there is no distinction of a Now, a past or a future.

Becuase of the human mind and its conditions, we use words such as Now, and past , present. But neither of them exist, nor do not exist, and neither of the two are real. Buddhism is of no marks. Original nature is of no marks. There is impermanence to those who believe in permanence, and permanence for those who believe in impermanence. haha

The mind is liek that until it isn't.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

 

I have been practising and studying theravadin buddhism for the past ten years and have been working on the jhanas for 2 years. There are many similarities in the concept of the dan tian system and the jhanics systems.

 

For anyone who doesn't know about the jhanas, they are terms for the 8 stages of meditative absorptions that all meditators will eventually find. The buddha traversed through the first 4 jhanas and having arrived at the 4th, he attained the 3 abilities that made him the buddha. They are 1. the ability to see into his past lives, 2. the ability to see into the past and future lives of all beings, 3. the ability to see into the causality of birth and rebirth.

 

It's interesting as I am reading through these forums how much parallels i can find.

 

the method of neikung involves condensing, storing, and solidiying one's yang energy into the dan tien and dropping it into the Yin regions of the body (the tail bone I think) which creates the kinetic energy that can manifest.

 

the jhanas work like this

the meditator focuses on the breath until a feeling of tingling, or warmth appears in the body. One then turns the focus onto these mildly pleasant feelings until they expand and expand and pulls the mind completely inward into a state of rapture and ecstasy. This would be the first jhana. One then separates the physical feeling of rapture with the emotional feeling of joy that comes with rapture and focuses on that joy until joy takes over the rapture and become self-sustaining. This is the 2nd jhana. One then calms the joy down and focuses on the feeling of contentment and tranquility that arises from joy until the contentment and tranquility becomes self-sustaining. This is the 3rd jhana. Then one drops this feeling of contentment and all feelings and perception and sink into a state of neutrality and complete stillness, where pleasure and pain no longer exist. This is the 4th jhana.

 

And it is in this 4th jhana that the mind is , "bright, pliable, flexible, sharp and completely unified" that the meditator can use to "See" into the nature of all things. It is said that most supernatural abilities comes from the mastery of the 4th jhana.

 

I wonder if the process of the jhanas work the same way as the perfection of the ying and yang chi?

[林愛偉]

I have been practising and studying theravadin buddhism for the past ten years and have been working on the jhanas for 2 years. There are many similarities in the concept of the dan tian system and the jhanics systems.

 

For anyone who doesn't know about the jhanas, they are terms for the 8 stages of meditative absorptions that all meditators will eventually find. The buddha traversed through the first 4 jhanas and having arrived at the 4th, he attained the 3 abilities that made him the buddha. They are 1. the ability to see into his past lives, 2. the ability to see into the past and future lives of all beings, 3. the ability to see into the causality of birth and rebirth.

 

It's interesting as I am reading through these forums how much parallels i can find.

 

the method of neikung involves condensing, storing, and solidiying one's yang energy into the dan tien and dropping it into the Yin regions of the body (the tail bone I think) which creates the kinetic energy that can manifest.

 

the jhanas work like this

the meditator focuses on the breath until a feeling of tingling, or warmth appears in the body. One then turns the focus onto these mildly pleasant feelings until they expand and expand and pulls the mind completely inward into a state of rapture and ecstasy. This would be the first jhana. One then separates the physical feeling of rapture with the emotional feeling of joy that comes with rapture and focuses on that joy until joy takes over the rapture and become self-sustaining. This is the 2nd jhana. One then calms the joy down and focuses on the feeling of contentment and tranquility that arises from joy until the contentment and tranquility becomes self-sustaining. This is the 3rd jhana. Then one drops this feeling of contentment and all feelings and perception and sink into a state of neutrality and complete stillness, where pleasure and pain no longer exist. This is the 4th jhana.

 

And it is in this 4th jhana that the mind is , "bright, pliable, flexible, sharp and completely unified" that the meditator can use to "See" into the nature of all things. It is said that most supernatural abilities comes from the mastery of the 4th jhana.

 

I wonder if the process of the jhanas work the same way as the perfection of the ying and yang chi?

 

I have acultivatio brother who once said that during his recitation practice, his head would become so dense and heavy that he had to stop. I said, just pbring that heaviness to the dantian (in the belly). He said that is exactly what one of the Dharma masters advised their students to do during all of the recitation. Basically it was focusing the Yang qi from reciting and concentration in the dantian. The Buddhists do not worry of the fine details. They simply cultivate concentration and do not worry on the outcome because if proper concentration is cultivated, the right outcome will be accomplished.

That is why there is little talk in developing spiritual powers and little emphasis on Qigong cultivation. They would simply say, cultivate patience, compassion and wisdom, then do not worry of the end result because it is inevitable. Just cultivate, concentrate, and you will attain...but it isn'te really attaining.

 

Every level reached is just the mind letting go of more and more things. And the experience of it is an outcome of proper concentration. Spiritual powers and powers developed from the practices in Buddhism are not discussed becaue they are not really so important to the next person, and wil lonly lead people to think that developing power is enlightenment, and they will develop bigger egos than they already have. Tha tis to steer them away from their original mind.

THough some people want to see in order to believe, it is still their ego which is looking, not their original nature. That is why Buddhists do ont play with their abilities infront of others. It is a disservice to their cultivation regardless of their desires to see something "cool". It is a defilement of their mind to want to see such. It shows more that they need to cultivate. haha

So this is why muc of Qigong and energetic cultivation in Buddhism isn't really spoken about. And as a hint to where it comes from, it is all in MEDITATION. A friend of mine came with me to see my other friend in a Daoist temple out in Taian. He wanted to ask her if there is a transmission of technique similar to that of Buddhism, because he used to be a monk. Also if there is Shengong practice. She answered as I answered him.. it all comes form meditation. Concentration.

 

 

Peace and Happiness,

 

Aiwei

[ZenStatic]

Thank you for the answers. But truly, all that has happened is that I am no confused on an even deeper level, after all of this talk of duality, dantian, etc. I must be honest and admit ignorant in regards to these matters, and even the terminology. Is there a way to perhaps "dumb down" the answers?

[林愛偉]

ALso, on the talk of Buddhism using only the two upper dantians,... I remember Heavenly Master Chang YiXiang

saying that men , in beginning their cultivation, should not focus on the lower dantian. They should focus on the heart and mind first.

Why? Because of the sexual desire that arises from yang qi in the lower dantian. If they are not properly guided, the men may masturbate, have sex and waste their energy, and or they may become sick and cause damage to their urniary system, kidneys and sexual organs. Woman on the other hand can focus on the lower dantian, because every month the menstruation ccle kicks in and drains a good amount of excess yang qi. ALso, women can control their sexual desires better than men can.. in most instances.

One more thing is, that a women can stop her mentruation cycle naturally with certain practices. THat is why these methods area recommended.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[林愛偉]

Thank you for the answers. But truly, all that has happened is that I am no confused on an even deeper level, after all of this talk of duality, dantian, etc. I must be honest and admit ignorant in regards to these matters, and even the terminology. Is there a way to perhaps "dumb down" the answers?

 

 

Both schools of cultivation look to attain enlightenment. One does it faster, one does it slower. The extra talk explains why. But its not important. Just work with the teachings you have more fate with. THose teachings will be the ones which assist you better. Fast and slow depend on your own mind and the conditions which govern your life.

 

Nothing mysterious.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

[WhereDidILeaveThatSelf...]

Hello

I won't express my own opinion as I think it is put far more elequently in the book "The Way of Zen" by Alan Watts. This gives an excellent overview of the interralationship between Taoism and buddhism (not just Zen) and will pretty much answer your question.

regards

[zenbrook]

Thank you for the answers. But truly, all that has happened is that I am no confused on an even deeper level, after all of this talk of duality, dantian, etc. I must be honest and admit ignorant in regards to these matters, and even the terminology. Is there a way to perhaps "dumb down" the answers?

You want dumb....? I'm your man

 

As with all these things, I would suggest it depends upon your own personal point of view. The question is not whether Buddhism and Taoism mix, but whether you find something of value in each/either/or that is of benefit.

 

There are many 'Buddhisms' and many 'Taoisms' depending on how one interprets them. As an example: I have been a practitioner of both in my time, a non-ritualistic and in many ways secular Zen-based Taoism and a highly ritualized and religiously oriented Tantric Buddhism.... yet for me the two are identical in that they offered me effective methods (albeit outwardly very different) to lessen confusion and promote wellbeing. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, just as I have my strengths and weaknesses as a practitioner. My personal preference (yes, I did just say that) is for Taoism. My Taoism and your's will as likely be different. Does it matter? Not a jot. Which is better? The best one of all is the one that you practice.

 

And practice, as we know, makes perfect.

 

Peace (& welcome!),

ZenB