The Free Will Thread

[Cameron]

Ok...big issue..Free Will.

 

Do you think it is real?

 

Pretty much the central issue I see between what teachers like Adyashanti, Sailor Bob etc and teachers like those on "The Secret" don't have in common is the whole free will thing. Oh, alot of the talk besides that is similar. It's "all one"..we are all "energy"..it's all good..but the difference is one camp says there is no self and this free will business is just a thought in your head. It's like you think your driving the car only to realize the car is driving itself, always has driven itself, always will drive itself. You just need to slip into the passenger seat..relax into what is..enjoy the ride.

 

The other camp is very much a believer in the driver of the car. You are the designer of your life. You manifest what you want..whether it's the car,the house,the hot girlfriend/boyfriend. This is founded on the idea that the driver(self) exists directing the experience of life and making choices that may or may not benefit that life.

 

The no free will camp says choices are an illusion. It's basically the thought/idea that there is a you in the first place that makes choices that is the illusion. There is no self. There is no controller. You just think there is.

 

So let's talk about this whole free will thing. Be honest if you don't know just say you don't know. I don't know but am leaning heavily towards this whole no free will thing. Which is bad news for the ego.

[goldisheavy]

Ok...big issue..Free Will.

 

Do you think it is real?

 

Understanding in terms of thums-upping and thumbs-downing ideas is really flawed. I suggest you thoroughly examine both free will and determinism and see that both ideas are flawed. Eliminate extremes, and middle also disappears. And yet here you are!

 

You have to really work through it in your mind. That doesn't mean you will definitely reach a conclusion. As you work through it, something happens. It's not a conclusion, and it's not like "the answer" to the question either. Call it wisdom, call it whatever you want. It cannot be really described until it happens, but it cannot happen if you don't examine very very thoroughly the basic foundational assumptions involved in all these questions.

 

It's like you are meeting your own mind for the first time. People think they know their minds, but nothing is further from the truth. Habitually reacting to situation, thinking that you totally know who you are, all this is nonsense that only deluded people can take seriously. Once you look at your mind, you might see you have no clue what it is like. All your preconceptions about your own mind go out the window, eventually. Your own mind is Buddha, Tao, but if you think your mind is just your mind and if you think you know how it works and what it does, then you get only a very limited use out of it.

 

It's like if you have a wish-fulfilling gem but you think it's a potato, you only get one potato's worth of use from it and no more. But just telling yourself "my mind is Tao" is not sincere either. It's not authentic. Authenticity comes after you examine the root of your mind, on your own, for a long time, consistently, creatively, and maybe luck plays some role in it too.

 

Getting a "yes" or "no" or "neither" or any such answer to the free will question is pure garbage that's not worth your time.

 

All that is only my opinion of course.

[Cameron]

I agree it's probably not a simple yes or no answer. But in a way it is. When I stumble on this sense of "not knowing"...of being open to the possibility that there is no self and thus "no controller" it takes my mind to a deeper place.

 

But perhaps people from wisdom traditions such as Buddhism or Taoism might say there is no controller or decider but there is the deeper aspect we might call "spirit" or "prajna wisdom" or "awakeness". This awake presence is "self so". This aspect of life Sailor Bob calls "intelligence energy". The whole universe runs itself. The sun doesn't will itself to shine, flowers don't will themselves to bloom, it's all natural. Only us human beings have this cognizing ability and all of our emotional states to imagine a self in control and behind the wheel steering all of this.

 

And let's face it. People love the idea of a self that is in control and steering what is. We all(for the most part) cherish this seperate self and compare it to other selves to see how "successful" we are. We compete, work our asses off, to accomplish things and then turn around saying "look at what I have done".

 

Could you imagine one of the really "successful" people in the world, a worldy success like Bill Gates or Oprah or Bill Clinton or whoever, saying "I really don't have anything to do with this, it's all just what arises and happened on it's own". No! We love the idea of a controller or a director.

 

It may not be as cut and dry as saying there is no free will and no director and it's all just a big make believe show we are playing. But my guess is that is closer to the truth than the dream land of ego's in control the world is in. Happy to hear others opinions though.

[agharta]

 

 

Could you imagine one of the really "successful" people in the world, a worldy success like Bill Gates or Oprah or Bill Clinton or whoever, saying "I really don't have anything to do with this, it's all just what arises and happened on it's own". No! We love the idea of a controller or a director.

 

 

 

 

It reminds of that Chinese saying "When a Chinese person succeeds, he's a Confucian. When he fails, he's a Taoist."

 

Another one--"After 2 years of being a bum (not working, scrounging food, living off donations), one will not want to go back to working/making a living."

[Lozen]

Of course there is free will. You also have the choice to believe or not believe in it.

 

How is the idea of not being responsible for your actions a blow to the ego?

[thelerner]

The question seems wrapped up in the old existential time waster of 'do I really exist?' some people like to use. Ultimately you have to say to them, fine you don't exist, sit in the corner and don't bother me with your non existence.

 

We all make hundreds(?) of decisions a day. If you're not making the decisions then go sit in the corner and have 'whatever' make them for you and live your life for you in the corner.

 

I think the person who gets the most out of life realizes they have control over themselves. Total Control, is an illusion, but our influence over our life situation is huge. Life is like a poker. You don't control the cards you get, but how you play them is under your control, as well counting cards and watching the other players.

 

 

 

Michael

[Cameron]

Of course there is free will. You also have the choice to believe or not believe in it.

 

How is the idea of not being responsible for your actions a blow to the ego?

 

 

By "ego" I mean a sense of a seperate self that seemingly chooses what it wants or doesn't want. Ime not saying the thoughts that there is a seperate self that seemingly chooses what it wants or doesn't want doesn't happen. Ime saying it does happen..most people live and die there entire life believing in it..but it's all an illusion(possibly).

 

This perspective..sounds absolutely ridicoulous to the ego identity and if your not "awake". And let's face it. No one on Taobums is even close to being enlightened so we are mostly just giving our opinion on what we "think" is true..which is mostly more illusion.

 

But I still think it's interesting enough to get feedback on. Even if it is feedback from dream characters who think they are real

[Cameron]

We all make hundreds(?) of decisions a day. If you're not making the decisions then go sit in the corner and have 'whatever' make them for you and live your life for you in the corner.

 

 

Michael

 

 

This is actually very interesting and I think points to the heart of the fear that comes up(for me atleast) when some teachers talk about this no free will business.

 

As if if you let go of your seeming control and let everything be..what you would do is go sit in the corner for your entire life. I mean..what is it that makes us think by giving up our seemingly great control we would just end up doing nothing?

 

In a way it also seems related to the control vs. allow everything to be approach to meditation. The people who want to control everything may think if they give up the control nothing will happen..or whatever...that's just it..YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN. The whole no free will thing doesn't mean your taking a morbid I have no power approach to life(I think) it means your STEPPING INTO THE UNKNOWN..and living your life from that place.

 

All Ime saying(could be wrong also this is the Free will thread and totally up for a good debate) is that no control is reality anyway..you just think reality is in your control.

 

Maybe it is maybe it isn't...the rest of the phenomenal universe besides humans seem to pretty much run itself just fine without this idea of a self in control, but maybe we are special and unique..it's possible your right.

[Lozen]

This perspective..sounds absolutely ridicoulous to the ego identity and if your not "awake". And let's face it. No one on Taobums is even close to being enlightened so we are mostly just giving our opinion on what we "think" is true..which is mostly more illusion.

 

So are you saying that the less ridiculous this sounds, the more awake you are?

 

I guess I'm making all of my free will decisions in bed then. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Tao Parrot]

Okay, so what is free will, exactly? Does it mean there is a magical soul somewhere that is completely non-deterministic? Something that acts chaotically, randomly? Would that even be a good thing?

 

Putting that aside, you have a brain. If bits of your brain are damaged, you stop being able to do things. It's not just about losing motor control, in some cases you stop being able to even think about certain things. So, just where does this free will live?

 

The being that is you that is (hopefully) still reading this post is a collection of cells, which are a collection of molecules, which if you dice it down far enough are tiny little packets of the universe. You are a lump of universe. Does the universe have a free will? Hey, here's the good part: when you die, all that happens is the little packets get separated. We'll all be around for the life of the universe, we'll just...not be looking for food anymore.

[el_tortugo]

[Cameron]

So are you saying that the less ridiculous this sounds, the more awake you are?

 

I guess I'm making all of my free will decisions in bed then. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

 

Who knows. Go with you gut!

[forestofsouls]

If you think you have free will, try the following exercise for a week. Every time you go through a door, sense your entire body, as much as possible. Check back next week with your results. You can obtain experience in this area rather than philosophy.

[林愛偉]

Free will is like a credit card. Before you use the credit card, you have credit. After you use it, you are in debt. It becomes a "Debt" card.

 

Free will... before your karmic afflictions, you had an undefiled mind, free will, so to say; there was no separation, all things are satisfied without lack, all things are one, no duality, therefore no desire, no afflictions. Once you thought of a you, there was no more free will, only the process of karma. Once the process of karma is ended, there is complete free will.. but it isn't a distinction that there is free will, because there is no duality at that point.

 

One can make any decision, do anything they please, but unless they end karma, they will be on the constant wheel of their own doing. That may be fine for others who think it is free will, but it isn't free will anymore. It is one being controlled by their ignorance, greed and anger, and tossed from one outcome to the next due to their own karma.

 

The idea of free will is just a thought. Anything can be done, yet one will reap all outcomes due to the process of karma. Mostly everyone makes decisions based on their capacity to understand. That capacity is determined by one's karma. So, one's free will is based on their karmic afflictions.

 

 

 

Peace, and Happiness,

Aiwei

Edited June 16, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Yen Hui]

So let's talk about this whole free will thing. Be honest if you don't know just say you don't know. I don't know

but am leaning heavily towards this whole no free will thing. Which is bad news for the ego.

 

According to Taoist teaching, 'free will' is an innate human capacity that is only completely realized through

long spiritual cultivation. The I Ching has much to say about this subject. Here is an interesting passage, for

starters, from the section entitled The Great Treatise, that summarizes the deeper implications of the I Ching:-

 

On Effecting Central Harmony, According to the Great Treatise of the I Ching

 

3. Since in this way man comes to resemble heaven and earth, he is not in conflict with them. His wisdom

embraces all things, and his tao brings order into the whole world; therefore he does not err. He is active

everywhere but does not let himself be carried away. He rejoices in heaven and has knowledge of fate,

therefore he is free of care. He is content with his circumstances and genuine in his kindness, therefore he

can practice love.

 

Here we are shown how with the help of the fundamental principles of the Book of Changes it is possible to

arrive at a complete realization of man's innate capacities. This unfolding rests on the fact that man has innate

capacities that resemble heaven and earth, that he is a microcosm. Now, since the laws of heaven and earth

are reproduced in the Book of Changes, man is provided with the means of shaping his own nature, so that

his inborn potentialities for good can be completely realized.

 

In this process two factors are to be taken into account: wisdom and action, or intellect and will. If intellect

and will are correctly centered, the emotional life takes on harmony. We have here four propositions based

on wisdom and love, justice and mores, reminding us of the combination of these principles with the four words

in the hexagram Ch'ien, THE CREATIVE: "Sublime success; perseverance furthers."

 

The effect of wisdom, love, and justice is shown in the first proposition. On the basis of all-embracing wisdom,

the regulations springing from a love of the world can be so shaped that all goes well for everyone and no

mistakes are made. This is what furthers.

 

The second proposition pictures wisdom and love, excluding no person or thing; these are regulated by the

mores, which do not allow one to be carried away into anything improper or one-sided, and therefore have

success.

 

The third proposition shows the harmony of mind, perfect in wisdom, that rejoices in heaven and understands

its dispensations. This provides the basis for perseverance.

 

Finally, the last proposition shows the love that acquiesces trustingly in every situation and, out of its store of

inner kindness, manifests itself in good will toward all men, thereby attaining sublimity, the root of all good.

[End of Quotation]

 

According to the above, then, we clearly have "will", which is the power of decision. To deny the existence of

human will is delusional, imo. The question, though, is whether or not human will is "free" will. The answer to

this is inherent in the above passage, and which is expounded throughout the I Ching. If there is such a thing

as free will, it is only completely realized when both will and intellect are correctly centered, that is spiritually

oriented and rooted, and the emotional life is harmonious. It is implied herein that the will does not act freely,

in some sense, in the state of emotional disharmony. Emotional disharmony means being controlled by unruly

passions; and deserting the good because of these passions. Unruly passions are egotistic drives, but the will

does not disappear with the cessation of such drives. To the contrary, the will is purified and strenghtened as

these unhealthy drives are progressively eliminated; and regains its inborn freedom.

 

However, this "freedom" of the will is never without limits, according to the I Ching. For example, see Hex. 31:

 

Nine in the third place means:

The influence shows itself in the thighs.

Holds to that which follows it.

To continue is humiliating.

 

Every mood of the heart influences us to movement. What the heart desires, the thighs run after without a

moment's hesitation; they hold to the heart, which they follow. In the life of man, however, acting on the spur

of every caprice is wrong and if continued leads to humiliation. Three considerations suggest themselves here.

First, a man should not run precipitately after all the persons whom he would like to influence, but must be

able to hold back under certain circumstances. As little should he yield immediately to every whim of those in

whose service he stands. Finally, where the moods of his own heart are concerned, he should never ignore the

possibility of inhibition, for this is the basis of human freedom. [End of Quote]

 

There is much, much more that I would like to add to this, but I feel the above is a sufficient start. Later!

[林愛偉]

If one doesn't cultivate to open up higher wisdom, they are not in line with heaven's will. Some peopel are born with that capacity, and some aren't. As for the Yijing and its function in determining one's fate...the fate can be changed. And once that is done, it is getting closer to being other than an ordinary person. An ordinary preson goes with the flow of things, and works with their fate But someone more wiser will look to the causes of the situation, and change them accordingly to offer greater results for others.

Yijing is the outline for us to understand our karma, but because of its constant changing, we must really look to control what outcomes manifest. Free will isn't innate, it is taught. Choice making, if that is seen as free will, is also taught at a young age, and is acquired by one's exercising of preferences. So, choosing to do anything is really based on our preference, which is based on the experiences we have had, and the outcomes manifested from them.

One can make a choice to change their destiny, yet that is still on preference. But changing destiny is a good thing. Who said everyone's destiny is in line with the will of the heavens, and who said the will of the heavens is the highest?

Those in the heavens carry its wisdom, yet there are also evils in the heavens that influence one to do things they assume is their own choice. That is why using theYijing to recognize one's outcomes is a tool to recognize one's causes. If one can see their causes, and detach from greed, then they can change their destiny to be in line with the will of the more wiser, compassionate, patient heavens. Because there are evil ones out there as well, there are people who are inline with those heavens too.

One doesn't know the will of heaven until they have pure wisdom. That wisdom is from cultivation, not from intellect, but the use of the intellect comes from proper cultivation of inherent wisdom. THis wisdom is not of reading tons of books and going to school. It is from lessening in the mind, the afflictions, karma, attachments we have. It is the clouds being removed from the mind to reveal the brightness. Then there is no more labeling of brightness.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 16, 2007 by 林愛偉

[fatherpaul]

If one doesn't cultivate to open up higher wisdom, they are not in line with heaven's will. Some peopel are born with that capacity, and some aren't. As for the Yijing and its function in determining one's fate...the fate can be changed. And once that is done, it is getting closer to being other than an ordinary person. An ordinary preson goes with the flow of things, and works with their fate But someone more wiser will look to the causes of the situation, and change them accordingly to offer greater results for others.

Yijing is the outline for us to understand our karma, but because of its constant changing, we must really look to control what outcomes manifest. Free will isn't innate, it is taught. Choice making, if that is seen as free will, is also taught at a young age, and is acquired by one's exercising of preferences. So, choosing to do anything is really based on our preference, which is based on the experiences we have had, and the outcomes manifested from them.

One can make a choice to change their destiny, yet that is still on preference. But changing destiny is a good thing. Who said everyone's destiny is in line with the will of the heavens, and who said the will of the heavens is the highest?

Those in the heavens carry its wisdom, yet there are also evils in the heavens that influence one to do things they assume is their own choice. That is why using theYijing to recognize one's outcomes is a tool to recognize one's causes. If one can see their causes, and detach from greed, then they can change their destiny to be in line with the will of the more wiser, compassionate, patient heavens. Because there are evil ones out there as well, there are people who are inline with those heavens too.

One doesn't know the will of heaven until they have pure wisdom. That wisdom is from cultivation, not from intellect, but the use of the intellect comes from proper cultivation of inherent wisdom. THis wisdom is not of reading tons of books and going to school. It is from lessening in the mind, the afflictions, karma, attachments we have. It is the clouds being removed from the mind to reveal the brightness. Then there is no more labeling of brightness.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

if heaven has a will why not man then wills are free

and free will is as it is

[林愛偉]

if heaven has a will why not man then wills are free

and free will is as it is

 

 

Have you ever read any Daoist literature talking of the will of heaven?

Man's will is only called man's will because the mind is in a human body. Heaven's will is called

heaven's will because of those in the heaven's have a higher cultivation, and lighter karmic afflictions than humans and animals.

 

If one was in accord with the will of heaven, they are only in accord with the will of those in the heavens, because a place itself has no will... haha

 

Everyone talks of the will of heaven, and being in accord with it, so I use what they are familiar with. Those in the heaven's carry less karmic afflictions than those in lower realms. Some afflictions though, may be of evil nature, and some not.

Now, what is the will of the heaven's? They are to keep all beings in peace, and enlightenment. Stop the confusion and the self imposed afflictions. One's will means nothing unless there are those who are resonant with it. That means the mind must be light in order to resonate with something not mundane.

 

But it isn't mandatory to follow any will. haha Will is just another name of the desire to attain something. It is inevitable to attain enlightenment, peace.

Yet, as said earlier, the will of heaven, is actually the will of those in the heaven's wanting to make differences on this realm. Nothing more. It can be evil, or good.

 

It doesn't matter what one is in accord with, just awaken, cultivate and do good things.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 17, 2007 by 林愛偉

[fatherpaul]

Have you ever read any Daoist literature talking of the will of heaven?

Man's will is only called man's will because the mind is in a human body. Heaven's will is called

heaven's will because of those in the heaven's have a higher cultivation, and lighter karmic afflictions than humans and animals.

 

If one was in accord with the will of heaven, they are only in accord with the will of those in the heavens, because a place itself has no will... haha

 

Everyone talks of the will of heaven, and being in accord with it, so I use what they are familiar with. Those in the heaven's carry less karmic afflictions than those in lower realms. Some afflictions though, may be of evil nature, and some not.

Now, what is the will of the heaven's? They are to keep all beings in peace, and enlightenment. Stop the confusion and the self imposed afflictions. One's will means nothing unless there are those who are resonant with it. That means the mind must be light in order to resonate with something not mundane.

 

But it isn't mandatory to follow any will. haha Will is just another name of the desire to attain something. It is inevitable to attain enlightenment, peace.

Yet, as said earlier, the will of heaven, is actually the will of those in the heaven's wanting to make differences on this realm. Nothing more. It can be evil, or good.

 

It doesn't matter what one is in accord with, just awaken, cultivate and do good things.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

there is no heaven

there is no karma

there is no will

 

seeing into these things

one is free to do as he will

this may seem a contradiction

but it is so

 

peace,

paul

[林愛偉]

there is no heaven

there is no karma

there is no will

 

seeing into these things

one is free to do as he will

this may seem a contradiction

but it is so

 

peace,

paul

 

There is a heaven

There is Karma

There is will

 

not seeing into these things

one is caught in confusion.

there is no contradiction because there is no duality

and it is as it isn't.

 

 

AMITABHA

 

Aiwei

[fatherpaul]

There is a heaven

There is Karma

There is will

 

not seeing into these things

one is caught in confusion.

there is no contradiction because there is no duality

and it is as it isn't.

AMITABHA

 

Aiwei

*sigh*

as you wish

[Cameron]

I realize for the most part topics like this are beyond conventional style online chat. I do appreciate you all giving your best shot at it though.

 

Sitting with an awakened person yesterday I realize the essence of what wants to be communicated goes beyond the words themselves.

 

What an awakened person communicates is mind to mind,heart to heart. Most of these concepts gets thrown in the trash.

 

Namaste,

 

Cam

[林愛偉]

*sigh*

as you wish

 

 

 

You missed it. It is as you said, and let's not forget for those who have the heavens and such in their mind, it is as I have said. In the defiled mind, duality exists. As you said is very true, as I have said is very true.

 

Actually, neither are true, because making a distinction itself creates a view, and thus makes it false. The original mind, the original nature has no marks.

 

My reply to you was a dialogue of no marks.

 

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[fatherpaul]

 

You missed it. It is as you said, and let's not forget for those who have the heavens and such in their mind, it is as I have said. In the defiled mind, duality exists. As you said is very true, as I have said is very true.

 

Actually, neither are true, because making a distinction itself creates a view, and thus makes it false. The original mind, the original nature has no marks.

 

My reply to you was a dialogue of no marks.

 

 

Peace,

Aiwei

the breeze flows through this wall of words

 

peace my friend,

paul

[林愛偉]

the breeze flows through this wall of words

 

peace my friend,

paul

 

 

Peace and Happiness to you too my brother.

 

Aiwei