Ego and Attachment

[juliank]

In the past few months I have been coming across a couple different ways of viewing the Ego and my relation to it. I would like to hear others views especially when it is useful in the moment to moment experience of cultivation.

 

1) Ego is bad and we should attempt to rid ourselves of it. Granted, it wont happen overnight but through meditation, good works, viewing ourselves in the proper perspective slowly but surely the ego will erode. Humility becomes paramount and we should always strive to be humble so as not to let nasty ego rear its head and get us off track in our ego diminishing goal. Enlightened beings are egoless.

 

2) Ego is not bad but our attachment to is bad or perhaps the society's view of ego is incorrect. Thus, we should follow the same prescription as above but an obsession with diminishing the ego is silly and we should cultivate to simply develop a proper relationship to ego. One can still feel good about ones ego accomplishments such as career, education, physical abilities, but one must always understand that one's Real self is not the Ego and one must maintain awareness of this fact at all times. This view will see Enlightenment not as the absence of Ego but as a complete mastery of the Ego's attempt to delude us of our true Self and the relationship to Ego.

 

3) This view may see Ego as a good thing as it's part of reality itself. If there was no Ego we could never have come to the conclusion that Realization is possible or even needed. Hence, just as a certain element can be used to make a bomb or cure cancer the Ego can be used as material for Enlightenment itself. We work with Ego and we shape Ego to our ends for self realization. We don't shun it or try and repress it. We let it bask in itself and dance around and see in the poisons of Ego the elixir to Enlightenment.This enlightenment view may see ego simply as expanding into Bliss and Love to encompass all of existence itself. Hence, the need for Ego to diminish is not only an incorrect view but is wrong in terms of a metaphysical goal. The Ego does not disappear but expands into Love and Fullness and in that process rids it of the poison of small mindedness that is usually associated with ego.

 

My question is not to ask you what view of ego you take although we can go into that but what I want to know is how your view of Ego has been USEFUL in terms of moving forward spiritually, dealing with others, being honest and gentle with yourself and in your practice of moment to moment cultivation. This is something that keeps coming up personally and I wonder if there are others who may given this some thought.

Edited December 2, 2013 by juliank

[de_paradise]

There are different paths and different stages of realization within paths, so there are no rules per se. Your #1 sounds like fundamentalism, which may be good for beginners so they don't go too far astray, but needs to be cast away asap.In #2, satisfaction from accomplishments is same as satisfaction from pleasures: you have to ferret out your "attachment" to it.You can do this by contemplating how you feel in the state of lack of the accomplishment: if you feel bad or restless, you have an attachment. That is to say there is an unconscious force leading you arround with an invisible carrot and stick. You should try to release those or they wont just go away because you do some cool qigong or go deep in meditation. There are many people on this forum I think would say that attachment is not an issue, and you should just enjoy whatever you want and that is the path. This could be true after you have released the majority of your negative gunk, issues, complexes, bad memories, unconscious triggers--but not before, or that is delusion. I think if you are starting to feel naturally blissful much of the day, really at ease even in daily negative trigger situations, that would show you have released much of the negative gunk. But even still, I would want to work to a deep somatic level, childhood programming level to see where ego attachments are.

 

There is not much we are doing in terms of making cultivation progress that is not ego or small mind connected. Its about directing the ego or small mind in the right directions, that open up to vibrating at non-ego states (love, gratitude, wishing joy, etc.) To simply make meditation progress into subtle mind states and one pointed focus, one doesnt need to shed ego at all. Some people on this forum only want powers, or only want deep states, and be the same basic small minded person that they are now--its possible. Virtually everyone we communicate with in the world assumes a certain set of ego-based values, and we have to talk to them without getting all preachy about our own new aims and values, and often communication with others will let you see for yourself if you have actually changed, and let you know what you still have to work on.

[Starjumper]

In Taoism having a strong ego is not a problem, in fact that's basically what Shen is. Keep in mind that having an ego and having an ego problem are two entirely different things. There was this really old Chinese guy who kind of took me under his wing for a bit, and we exchanged a bunch of messages and some emails. I deem him to be an immortal.

 

What this Taoist immortal once said was: A person's ego should be like a wild stallion racing free across the open plains.

 

That's Taoism, that's Shen. All you Hindus and Buddhists back to your cushions and quiet now.

[Boy]

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Edited January 15, 2014 by Boy

[liminal_luke]

I see at as a developmental process. First it's important to build up a functioning ego. We need boundaries. This is my body, these are my thoughts. They belong to me. That is your body, those are your thoughts. They belong to you. This is step one and can't be rushed over or shortchanged in the rush towards trancendence.

 

Once a healthy ego has been in place for a period of time we naturally start to gravitate towards transpersonal experiences which may seem to blur the distinction between self and world we so diligently worked to build up back in the day.

 

This model is useful because it does away with the false idea that the ego is good or bad. Some spiritually aware people are working on building up their ego, and some spiritually aware people are working on dismantling theirs. And this is exactly as it should be.

 

The danger of the anti-ego position applied indiscriminately is that people will attempt to rid themselves of their ego before they really have one to lose.

Edited December 3, 2013 by liminal_luke

[Marblehead]

Hi Juliank,

 

I think everyone on this board knows that I love my ego.

 

I like the stage 3) that your view is at now.

 

My ego is a reflection of how I feel about myself. If our ego and our reality are equal then I think we will have inner peace.

 

 

To Starjumper, but even the wild and free stallion must rest at times in order to gain reserve energy. I think we need to allow our ego to rest periodically as well. Spend some time just being.

 

 

My ego allows me to set goals in my life and give me the initiative to accomplish those goals. When I am capable of doing those things I set as goals it shows me that I am what I think I am.

[Starjumper]

To Starjumper, but even the wild and free stallion must rest at times in order to gain reserve energy. I think we need to allow our ego to rest periodically as well. Spend some time just being.

 

I agree, in fact it seems one of the trials along the Way is to learn how to restrain a strong ego =)

[Starjumper]

The title mentions attachments too, but I didn't notice any questions about it.

[Starjumper]

I guess you could say that the wild stallion should be reined in sometimes and kept in the corral. That itself could be a good subject for debate, I mean, discussion.

[C T]

Ego is like chewing gum stuck on a shoe. Its probably not even your own, and no matter how you try to scrape it off, there will always be bits left behind, which, over time, gets covered over by grime and dirt, but beneath it all, its still stubbornly blotched there, attached, till the end of the life of the shoe.

[Marblehead]

The title mentions attachments too, but I didn't notice any questions about it.

Yeah, attachments to things external to our body/mind, when we lose, will cause us great sorrow. This includes other people too. But then, holding without clinging is acceptable, I think. Our attachments give our life more meaning but we must be cautious so that we do not believe that our attachments are a part of our true essence.

[Marblehead]

Ego is like chewing gum stuck on a shoe. Its probably not even your own, and no matter how you try to scrape it off, there will always be bits left behind, which, over time, gets covered over by grime and dirt, but beneath it all, its still stubbornly blotched there, attached, till the end of the life of the shoe.

WoW! What a statement! I don't necessarily agree with it. Hehehe. But I will hold my tongue.

[Stosh]

Ego is a specific Freudian term within a specific discipline , if you dont abide by the discipline , since not everyone believes in Freudian psychology,, then the term is misused. When Ive tried the "nonwesternized" contingent how the systems stack against they dont want to make direct analogy , and often they rebel against scientific inquiry.

 

I can agree with CT that ego persists , that abandoning it is a hopeless endeavor.. I just dont have the disparaging attitude.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Stosh

[Starjumper]

Concerning attachment. It is true that attachments will cause suffering and there are some non Taoist traditions that focus on suffering (can we say Buddhism) and solve this problem by implying that a person should rid themselves of attachments but I disagree with that. My views on it, which I think align with the Way, is that attachments also bring joy. In other words attachments will generate both joy and suffering, probably in more or less equal amounts.

 

That really isn't a problem is it? To ask people to get rid of attachments is contrary to human nature. Shouldn't you be attached to your children or pets or spouse?

 

So the way I look at it is that a person should be aware of how attachments cause suffering and then choose their attachments wisely. Some are worth it and some aren't. Like purely egoic attachments like, unneeded material goods, are more likely to cause more suffering than joy.

[C T]

Concerning attachment. It is true that attachments will cause suffering and there are some non Taoist traditions that focus on suffering (can we say Buddhism) and solve this problem by implying that a person should rid themselves of attachments but I disagree with that. My views on it, which I think align with the Way, is that attachments also bring joy. In other words attachments will generate both joy and suffering, probably in more or less equal amounts.

 

That really isn't a problem is it? To ask people to get rid of attachments is contrary to human nature. Shouldn't you be attached to your children or pets or spouse?

 

So the way I look at it is that a person should be aware of how attachments cause suffering and then choose their attachments wisely. Some are worth it and some aren't. Like purely egoic attachments like, unneeded material goods, are more likely to cause more suffering than joy.

Ah, the bane of misunderstanding what the Buddha taught.

 

He never said to get rid of attachments. The encouragement given is to recognise the transient nature of the world, of which the human one is no different, and to the the degree one can see this, then the pitfalls/obstacles of becoming slave-like to those things which changes all the time is very much in the forefront of one's awareness. As long as this awareness (mindfulness) is present, then its ok to become affectionate towards the external, while simultaneously prepared internally that impermanence and change, the onset of sickness, old age and death are very much facts of this process, both to oneself and those external to oneself.

[yabyum24]

My question is not to ask you what view of ego you take although we can go into that but what I want to know is how your view of Ego has been USEFUL in terms of moving forward spiritually, dealing with others, being honest and gentle with yourself and in your practice of moment to moment cultivation. This is something that keeps coming up personally and I wonder if there are others who may given this some thought.

I've never really had a view on ego, apart from some discursive, theoretical junk I picked up along the way, which I've always been lax in maintaining. So a 'view' per se has been neither useful nor detrimental.

 

My discovery of 'what' it actually is, came about through meditation. Now I have no "view" on it at all, least of all a moral one. It's not something anyone can 'decide' to abandon, as part of a glorious spiritual crusade - they're in denial if they think they can.

 

There's nothing wrong giving love to those near to us or holding them dear. Abandoning grasping and hate does not mean turning into stone.

[Starjumper]

Ah, the bane of misunderstanding what the Buddha taught.

 

He never said to get rid of attachments. The encouragement given is to recognize ...

 

I agree, those were my thoughts, that Buddha wouldn't have said that since he was so enlightened. I think it's the 'priests' or wannabees that seem to focus on eliminating attachments.

 

I'm no expert on Buddhism, but I direct you to the work of art titled "The Vinegar Tasters". Isn't that kind of what we're talking about here?

[Stosh]

CT speaks well enough for himself ,

but I want to suggest based on inference that attatchments might also be seen as nonacceptance of the transient essence of things, erroneous suppositions about the permanence or 'reality' of those things which lead to discontent,

 

the flowing wave wished frozen , the delicate scent of rose wished sustained until it is no longer detectable, taking for granted the fleet feet of youth, a baby's first steps , favorite meals , a graceful dance. They happen at all because they do change , they are not stagnant , and the fearful grasp for security which wants to 'not let go' is the problem.

Peace may be found in accepting these things as transient , because they appear for but a moment , the moment lost cannot be regained , so wisdom may lie in appreciating them all the way through their cycles of development and cessation rather than wishing the moments captured,,, for they cannot be.

[juliank]

I've never really had a view on ego, apart from some discursive, theoretical junk I picked up along the way, which I've always been lax in maintaining. So a 'view' per se has been neither useful nor detrimental.

 

My discovery of 'what' it actually is, came about through meditation. Now I have no "view" on it at all, least of all a moral one. It's not something anyone can 'decide' to abandon, as part of a glorious spiritual crusade - they're in denial if they think they can.

 

There's nothing wrong giving love to those near to us or holding them dear. Abandoning grasping and hate does not mean turning into stone.

 

The reason why I asked about what view of ego has been useful/detrimental in terms of spiritual evolution is because it has come up in my own path that when I interact with others there are moments when I detect that my reactions/comments are born from an egoic space. Then I will make the attempt to temper the ego and speak from a place where the ego is attenuated or diminished to a degree. I will lower my voice, not be so opinionated, and smooth out my comments. What I am curious about is if that is necessary in terms of spiritual evolution ?

 

Naturally and with zero filters I am opinionated, intense, charismatic, articulate, enthusiastic, playful, over the top, brash and authoritative. I loathe small talk and political correctness. I like to drive to the heart of matter and shatter social masks. Mainly because since I was very young I could see through them with razor like accuracy both in myself and in others. These are not labels I apply to myself haphazardly as this is how I have been described by others so many times I have lost count. In fact I goad others in describing my psychological characteristics with brutal honesty so I can work on myself better.

 

What I must accept is that my relationship and my view of Ego has to be well defined so that I can better navigate it. The problem that I find is when I put myself in that place of trying to temper my thoughts and words is that I am essentially a neutered version of myself. I understand that "myself" is just another thought form too which makes the task of navigating it that much more complicated. If the Ego is just another thought well then what does it matter if I bask in it with full force and let it ride like a stallion as long as I know that it's not my essential self anyways ? Do you see now how taking a proper view of Ego would clarify how to approach its movement in my life ?

[Boy]

...

Edited January 15, 2014 by Boy

[C T]

Ah, yes! I read you loud and clear, brother.My advice then, based on my own journey and what I've read and heard from the big guys is what I was getting at earlier and what yabyum24 seems to be pointing at as well, is quite simply this: Don't try to define the ego. Don't bother with taking the right view towards it. Don't have a relationship with it. Don't navigate it. Don't have points one, two and three about it. Just find it! Find the ego!

 

That is walking the walk.

 

Good luck!

If only it can be found.

[Stosh]

Me too !

I must be brutally honest , my mind is like a brilliant star, lighting the darkness, I am also so much fun , jovial and joyful I'm like a christmas all year long! but.. truly threatening as a stormy sea when aroused. Everyone I know agrees with this , sees my great humility, and wonders how such a handsome man can be so down to earth and relateable, I don't even know why I should change this because my ego has no fault ! Its not even discernable. I guess its just my gentle nature pushing me around again and I should accept it all with my usual grace.

 

[juliank]

I see what you are saying Boy but then what ?

 

I read an analogy that capturing what the Ego is (this could be applied to many of the concepts we discuss here) is like trying to catch a bare fish with your hands. You will be able to feel its scaly skin as it moves through your hands but it will slip right by you continuously.

[juliank]

haha stosh i like your style.

 

i certainly perceive many faults in my ego and frankly i wish i could be fully objective about my own state of being. how does one work on that which is just a thought ? namely the self/ego ? it sometimes feel like a dog chasing its own tail...

 

the only time that none of these thoughts bother me is in deep meditation and a few hours past that. i know that most wise teachers say that i should just allow that meditative state to flow into the rest of the day.

 

easily said. not easily accomplished.

[Boy]

...

Edited January 15, 2014 by Boy