Debunking a Creator

[RongzomFan]

Many of the famous Taoist teachers believe in God, like John Chang, Waysun Liao, Chunyi Lin and there are probably others. It seems like for these guys practice enhances their belief in God rather than diminish it, which probably goes back to what Manitou said earlier about studying the microcosm to understand the macrocosm and when you do that you understand where God exists within it all.

 

And the tertons say everything is illusory, since the basis never displays as anything other than the 5PLs.

Edited December 5, 2013 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

Many of the famous Taoist teachers believe in God, like John Chang, Waysun Liao, Chunyi Lin and there are probably others. It seems like for these guys practice enhances their belief in God rather than diminish it, which probably goes back to what Manitou said earlier about studying the microcosm to understand the macrocosm and when you do that you understand where God exists within it all.

 

That's due to their individual inclinations. Is this implying all followers and/or schools of Daoism view the micro and macrocosm in terms of a monotheistic or monistic world view? Do the examples of those teachers imply that the seminal texts of Daoism should only be interpreted in monotheistic or in monistic frameworks?

[Simple_Jack]

That's due to their individual inclinations. Is this implying all followers and/or schools of Daoism view the micro and macrocosm in terms of a monotheistic or monistic world view? Do the examples of those teachers imply that the seminal texts of Daoism should only be interpreted in monotheistic or in monistic frameworks?

 

This would be ignoring the heavy influence of Buddhism on Daoist iconography, meditation and ritual practice, philosophical discourse, etc.

Edited December 5, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[RongzomFan]

http://books.google.com/books?id=2HS1DOZ35EgC&pg=PA280&dq=an+imitation+of+Buddhist+sutras+which+came+close+to+plagiarism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KgWhUtunPMbIsAS6yIC4BA&ved=0CDgQuwUwAA#v=onepage&q=an%20imitation%20of%20Buddhist%20sutras%20which%20came%20close%20to%20plagiarism&f=true

[Aetherous]

Many of the famous Taoist teachers believe in God, like John Chang, Waysun Liao, Chunyi Lin and there are probably others. It seems like for these guys practice enhances their belief in God rather than diminish it, which probably goes back to what Manitou said earlier about studying the microcosm to understand the macrocosm and when you do that you understand where God exists within it all.

 

"Tao" itself could have possibly been viewed as God.

[Jetsun]

That's due to their individual inclinations. Is this implying all followers and/or schools of Daoism view the micro and macrocosm in terms of a monotheistic or monistic world view? Do the examples of those teachers imply that the seminal texts of Daoism should only be interpreted in monotheistic or in monistic frameworks?

 

How they each define God I don't know and it is an assumption of mine why they do, I just found it interesting that these highly accomplished teachers still believe in God, I think John Chang and Chunyi Lin even go to Church while Waysun Liao says we have a spark of God within us which can be nurtured. People can interpret this how they like.

[Simple_Jack]

But the idea exists in Mongolian Tengrism as Tengri or "Eternal Blue Sky", in Native American "religion" as Wakan Tanka, etc. Also, in Vaishnavism you say there isn't the idea of a creator or supreme God, yet they worship Vishnu as precisely that. Even in Samkhya you could say that Purusa is God.

 

As we can see, the idea wasn't just confined to middle eastern belief systems.

 

Besides...saying that because an idea wasn't historically part of some cultures, means that the idea isn't true or worthy of consideration, would be false.

 

Not that I care about anyone's consideration of the idea of God...I don't care if you personally believe, don't believe, don't know, or don't care enough to think about it...just saying.

I would not categorize these beliefs as monotheism, but closer to one of these three:

 

1. Monism

 

2. Henotheism

 

3. Monolatrism

Adding a fourth with Kathenotheism. Categorizations of Dharmic religions aren't as black and white as Abrahamic religions.

 

P.S. Samkyha is for the most part an atheistic dualist school.

 

I forgot to add in Panentheism as another category.

[RongzomFan]

I go with Loppon Namdrol, when he says everything, including buddhahood, etc., is completely equivalent to an illusion:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5370&sid=a9dde9a3567e20eb76eead9a37c84a2a&start=80#p58244

[thamosh]

I go with Loppon Namdrol, when he says everything, including buddhahood, etc., is completely equivalent to an illusion:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5370&sid=a9dde9a3567e20eb76eead9a37c84a2a&start=80#p58244

 

You don't know what your saying......Its one thing to quote its another to understand.

[RongzomFan]

You don't know what your saying......Its one thing to quote its another to understand.

 

 

Since he is a friend of mine, and has taught me Madhyamaka over many many months, I think I do.

[thamosh]

Since he is a friend of mine, and has taught me Madhyamaka over many many months, I think I do.

 

 

Well im just a lowly practitioner with no attainment please tell me in your own words.

 

What is meant by existence is an illusion and that the creator is fake.

 

Do not quote anyone do not name drop just speak your truth that you have experienced that you are now giving testimony to.

[RongzomFan]

What is meant by existence is an illusion

 

Its an illusion. Like a dream. Like a mirage.

[thamosh]

Its an illusion. Like a dream. Like a mirage.

You talk as if you know but you don't let me ask you this...

 

Out of darkness and light which one would be the illusion of the 2?

 

Well the truth becomes obvious when you bring the 2 together........

 

its separation that creates the illusion.....

 

So now between you and god which one is real or fake.....

 

RongZomFan,

 

There is a big difference between someone who knows what they are talking about and someone who thinks they know what they are talking about.

[RongzomFan]

You talk as if you know but you don't let me ask you this...

 

Out of darkness and light which one would be the illusion of the 2?

 

Well the truth becomes obvious when you bring the 2 together........

 

its separation that creates the illusion.....

 

So now between you and god which one is real or fake.....

 

RongZomFan,

 

There is a big difference between someone who knows what they are talking about and someone who thinks they know what they are talking about.

 

Does anyone know what this guy is talking about?

[RongzomFan]

Some people, hearing that all phenomena are completely equivalent with illusions freak out. Some people who hear that phenomena are empty, freak out. This is why it is a bohdhisattva downfall to teach emptiness to the immature.

N

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5370&start=100#p58342

[thamosh]

Does anyone know what this guy is talking about?

 

I guess its too much to hope for an intelligent accurate response to my post.....

 

that's ok most cant beat me when it comes to things like this.

Edited December 6, 2013 by thamosh

[RongzomFan]

I guess its too much to hope for an intelligent accurate response to my post.....

 

that's ok most cant beat me when it comes to things like this.

 

New Agers think they are profound.

[thamosh]

I wish you luck. You wont learn until you decide to.

[RongzomFan]

I wish you luck. You wont learn until you decide to.

 

And you are the only one with the answers right?

[Simple_Jack]

I guess its too much to hope for an intelligent accurate response to my post.....

 

that's ok most cant beat me when it comes to things like this.

 

Not everyone adheres to "non-dualism" as you defined it.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[deci belle]

mr Fan said:

There is no place for a Creator in an ad infinitum regression of cause and effect.

There isn't even a place for a creator in the case of the totality of reality being causeless.

[ralis]

I go with Loppon Namdrol, when he says everything, including buddhahood, etc., is completely equivalent to an illusion:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5370&sid=a9dde9a3567e20eb76eead9a37c84a2a&start=80#p58244

 

Exactly what does that prove? Just more absolutist thinking.

[RongzomFan]

Exactly what does that prove? Just more absolutist thinking.

 

No, its a result of reasoning.

[ralis]

Some people, hearing that all phenomena are completely equivalent with illusions freak out. Some people who hear that phenomena are empty, freak out. This is why it is a bohdhisattva downfall to teach emptiness to the immature.

 

N

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5370&start=100#p58342

 

You have stated the problem with religion in general and Buddhism in particular. To say that certain ideology is only for the mature is arrogance. That attitude further divides and serves no one.

[ralis]

No, its a result of reasoning.

 

Your reasoning is flawed and proceeds from incorrect conclusions.