Debunking a Creator

[RongzomFan]

I am not interested in Brahma. Full stop.

 

Ok forget about the word Brahma.

 

I will use the western word "demiurge."

[Isimsiz Biri]

Ok forget about the word Brahma.

 

I will use the western word "demiurge."

 

I am not interested in demiurge.

[Aetherous]

If a Creator creates cause and effect, he is a changing being like Brahma, the demiurge of Dharma.

 

This is an illogical statement. Being a creator of cause and effect does not necessarily make one a 'changing being' subject to cause and effect.

 

Are Buddhas free of cause and effect? Is the Dharmakaya a changing being?

[RongzomFan]

 

This is an illogical statement. Being a creator of cause and effect does not necessarily make one a 'changing being' subject to cause and effect.

 

Are Buddhas free of cause and effect? Is the Dharmakaya a changing being?

 

Dharmakaya is not a thing.

 

It is the realization of emptiness.

[Aetherous]

Dharmakaya is not a thing.

 

It is the realization of emptiness.

 

I'm out of my element with Buddhism, being a newbie...but I don't think you're right about that based on what pretty much any source says.

 

edit: I'd agree that it's not a "thing".

Edited December 6, 2013 by turtle shell

[RongzomFan]

I am not interested in demiurge.

 

 

Allah is a demiurge

[RongzomFan]

I'm out of my element with Buddhism, being a newbie...but I don't think you're right about that based on what pretty much any source says.

 

And I've never heard Dharmakaya is a thing, except on this forum.

[Aetherous]

Edited my post to say it's not a "thing".

[Isimsiz Biri]

Allah is a demiurge

 

RongzomFan is server of Mara.

[RongzomFan]

RongzomFan is server of Mara.

 

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

When you hear the reality, you smile? You naughty boy. Tell my greetings to your master Mara. I will defeat it in January 2014 one more time.

[RongzomFan]

First I'm repeatedly accused of promoting Buddhism.

 

Now I serve the enemy of Buddhadharma, Mara?

 

Can you guys come up with something consistent?

[RongzomFan]

Allah is a demiurge

 

bump

[Isimsiz Biri]

RongzomFan is server of Mara.

 

bump

[Isimsiz Biri]

The Buddhist 969 movement is supporting of killing innocent women and children.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/969_Movement

 

This is RongzomFan's "Faith"

 

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[Isimsiz Biri]

You demon, do you have faith? What kind of a creature are you insulting everybody's faith?

 

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[Isimsiz Biri]

 

Not every South Asian Scholar.

 

Read your fucking link:

 

It is David Germano, not every South Asian Scholars.

 

The Funerary Transformation of the Great Perfection

David Germano, University of Virginia

JIATS, no. 1 (October 2005), THL #T1219, 54 pp

Section 8 of 9 (pp. 24-27)

© 2005 by David Germano, IATS, and THL

The Ultra Pith (yangti)

The Ultra Pith canon of forty-two texts is, in contrast to the Crown Pith literature, internally heterogeneous, and closer to the Four Cycles texts in overall content. As regards the influence of funerary Buddhism, I believe that originally it inhabited an intermediate position between the Crown Pith and Four Cycles. In short, there are two principal strands of the Ultra Pith: a fifteen-text “Brahmin Tradition” linked to Vimalamitra that I suspect was originally an eleventh to twelfth century contemporary of the Seminal Heart; and a nine-text Padmasambhava-based tradition linked again to Nyangrel Nyima Özer and his descendants from the twelfth century onwards.56 This problematizes the contemporary Tibetan categorization of the Crown Pith and Ultra Pith as both Padmasambhava treasure traditions, which one often hears in oral teachings. There are also at least two other independent constellations of texts under the Ultra Pith rubric: six texts linked to Śrīsiṁha and Vairocana (bairo tsana, eighth-ninth century) that have more affinity to the Mind Series canon, and five texts with the sub-rubric Black Ultra Pith.57

The Vimalamitra texts have at least three other rubrics associated with them: the Brahmin Tradition, the “Cycle of the Yellow Volumes with Dark Blue Pages” [page 25] (poti seru tingshokchengyi kor),58 and the “One with the Golden/Silver Bell and Staff” (ser/ ngülgyi drilshingchen).59 The first and third rubrics appear to refer to Vimalamitra himself, who is of the brahmin caste and evidently was associated with carrying a bell and staff of gold or silver; the second rubric likely refers to the special physical form of the manuscripts used by Vimalamitra to form his treasure cache in this case. Finally, the colophons reveal a distinctive treasure narrative, which most typically involves Vimalamitra, Drenpa Yeshé (eighth-ninth century), and Nyang Tingdzin Zangpo (c. eighth-ninth century) involved with the dynastic period translation and concealment, and then Drom Yeshé [Lamé] Nyingpo, Shangpa Chechung[wa] Yeshé Gyeltsen, and others involved in their re-excavation and subsequent transmission.60 This contrasts to the Crown Pith and other Ultra Pith texts with their narratives of concealment by Padmasambhava and excavation by Nyangrel Nyima Özer and Guru Chökyi Wangchuk.

These excavation accounts of the Brahmin Tradition involve figures and time periods similar to those of the accounts of the revelation of the Four Cycles. In short, it appears that the Four Cycles literature mostly predates the twelfth century, and was partially contemporaneous to the earliest use of the Ultra Pith rubric, namely Vimalamitra’s “Brahmin Tradition.” Together they formed the matrix of the later Crown Pith and Ultra Pith Padmasambhava-based movements, which [page 26] were in the former case probably reacting against them, and in the latter case appropriating them without acknowledgment.

The term intermediate process is scattered throughout the Vimalamitra Ultra Pith materials (which are largely absent in The Collected Tantras of Vairocana), but on the whole it seems to be a less innovative reiteration of intermediate process of rebirth discourse. They mostly consist of chapters entitled along the lines of “wandering into saṃsāra in the intermediate process of rebirth.” The most systematic presentation is in The Identical Sky of Primordial Gnosis Tantra,61 which has a sequence of four chapters dealing with the intermediate processes based on a fivefold typology:62 (i) intermediate process of cyclic existence and transcendence – the primordial ground before saṃsāra and nirvāṇa, (ii) intermediate process of birth and death (kyeshi bardo) – the actual phases of dying and rebirth, rather than this life itself, or the postmortem state, (iii) intermediate process of objects and minds (yülsem bardo) – a contemplative context revealing the expanse of reality (chöying) between object and mind, (iv) intermediate process of contemplation – more classic meditation, and (v) intermediate process of rebirth – significantly this is not discussed further, but presumably signifies the postmortem intermediate process. There is a much later chapter on “not taking birth in the intermediate process” which tersely discusses primordial gnosis in the body, and refers to the Six Able Ones (i.e., Six Buddhas; tuppa druk) and two types of Form Body automatically manifesting.63 However, it is in verse, and not very explicit.

The Tantra of Primordial Gnosis Perfectly Complete from Its Depths64 devotes a chapter to the intermediate process of rebirth, which describes the process of dying in detail.65 It culminates in the standard phases of appearance, intensification, and attainment, using standard images like mirage, fireflies, and so forth. Then it discusses latent karmic propensities (bakchak) causing one to think one has one’s previous body, and makes other references to a psychic body (yikyi lü) and so forth as is standard in Indian postmortem presentations. There is no trace of any intermediate process of reality-style discussion. It thus appears that the Vimalamitra Ultra Pith tradition incorporates older style intermediate process discourse only to a limited extent.

[page 27]

When we turn to the slimmer volume of Padmasambhava-based Ultra Pith literature, we find one text actually attributed to Nyangrel Nyima Özer – The Tantra of the Pure Vastness of the Sky Blazing with the Solar and Lunar Light – and four texts attributed to his reincarnation, Guru Chökyi Wangchuk, including the massive The Great Illumination of the Non-Discursive Dimension Tantra.66 In addition, Nyangrel Nyima Özer’s secondary supplement to the central Crown Pith text entitled The Tantra of the Ambrosial Union of Appearances and Life-Worlds, does refer to Ultra Pith, and explicitly indicates its superiority to Crown Pith (see above). It thus may be that Nyangrel Nyima Özer’s later works began to employ the Ultra Pith rubric, which was then picked up by his successors. The central The Great Illumination of the Non-Discursive Dimension Tantra has significant discussions of death-related materials, but its one hundred and twelfth chapter on the four intermediate process is in fact lifted directly from chapter eighty-four of the key Secret Cycle Tantra, The Totally Radiant Seminal Nucleus (as is much of the rest of the text as well).67 This suggests that the Ultra Pith discourse on intermediate process is lifted from presumably earlier Four Cycles discourses, though further research is necessary on this point.

I would suggest the Crown Pith’s reactionary orientation failed ultimately because the incorporation of Tantra into Great Perfection was too popular and powerful, even for the potent Padmasambhava cult to overcome. Its proponents thus shifted over into a linked Ultra Pith movement which carried a similar rubric as well as the Padmasambhava associations, and continued to speak of the Crown Pith, albeit now in a subordinated role. In this sense, it is similar to my hypothesized historical relationship between the materials now classified as Outer, Inner, Secret, and Unsurpassed Secret Cycles. However, the Ultra Pith adopted a more sympathetic attitude towards the new developments and continued to evolve, while the Crown Pith became a closed canon with no future. The point at which this Ultra Pith tradition was linked via the common rubric of Ultra Pith to the older Vimalamitra traditions is as yet unknown.

Read more: http://www.thlib.org/collections/texts/jiats/#!jiats=/01/germano/b8/#ixzz2miELMvlE

 

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Edited December 6, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Isimsiz Biri]

Where did you understand your rules are divine? They are not divine. Prove that they are divine.

 

Bump bump bump bump bump

Edited December 6, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Brian]

Children??? Please.

 

The topic at hand is:

 

"First off, this universe is completely equivalent with illusion, like a lucid dream. So to speak of a Creator is meaningless.

 

"If you can't fathom that, think about this. There is an ad infinitum regression of cause and effect. Logically the Big Bang has causes, which in itself has causes, which in itself has causes etc.

 

"There is no place for a Creator in an ad infinitum regression of cause and effect."

Edited December 6, 2013 by Brian

[Isimsiz Biri]

Children??? Please.

 

The topic at hand is:

 

"First off, this universe is completely equivalent with illusion, like a lucid dream. So to speak of a Creator is meaningless.

 

"If you can't fathom that, think about this. There is an ad infinitum regression of cause and effect. Logically the Big Bang has causes, which in itself has causes, which in itself has causes etc.

 

"There is no place for a Creator in an ad infinitum regression of cause and effect."

 

Brian,

 

what you have written has also been replied. I have not seen RongzomFan thanking you anyway

[zerostao]

cause and effect could be creator and creation

[RongzomFan]

How am I Mara if I'm pro-Buddhism?

 

Maras are against Buddhism.

[Isimsiz Biri]

How am I Mara if I'm pro-Buddhism?

 

Maras are against Buddhism.

 

Exactly. bingo. You got it. You have nothing to do with being pro-Buddhism. You just serve Mara.

[RongzomFan]

Exactly. bingo. You got it. You have nothing to do with being pro-Buddhism. You just serve Mara.

 

How do I go against Buddhism?

[Brian]

Why would I expect thanks? I was merely reminding those playing Ping-Pong that this thread is not without a topic. Honestly, though, there does seem to be a pattern, doesn't there?