Ego - How To Hunt It.

[yabyum24]

As there was some interest on this thread about how one can discover the ego via meditation, I thought I'd put my own experience of the topic here for people to try out if they so wish.

 

It's not going to be a scholarly exposition, or comparative analysis (this would just add more junk to the heap). Just bare-bones stuff. If you are looking for juicy debate, esoteric doctrine or mind-blowing revelations, this isn't the place. So comments like "This is just such-and-such a practice" or "Such-and-such a teacher says..." are unnecessary. Please don't bother putting them up. Just take it or leave it.

 

Any procedural questions are okay, and definitely any experiences you may gain through trying it out. Or if anyone else has done something similar.

 

The first thing to understand is that ego does not want to be found - it really doesn't. What we intellectually understand as ego, is just a mental fabrication, un-findable with logic and reasoning. If you want to really 'get' it, you need to observantly wait for it to come to you - like a hunter. Have no expectations or prerequisites for the encounter and keep an open mind. Regard it as a game, or a kind of amusing but unimportant exercise. The key thing is to keep it 'light' and easy-going.

 

Meditation, in many cases, is a matter for the mind. Perhaps we are aware of philosophies which imply that the body is somehow responsible for our suffering and that our 'higher' self is trapped within this encasement of 'weak' flesh. Well, this process is very different. It's perhaps best to view it like Tai Chi or yoga - it's every bit as much about the body as it is the mind.

 

Buddha taught his disciples to bring their awareness to the breath. Not in a forceful, manipulative way, but just enough to be aware of it. Try it with your eyes closed, if you feel too distracted, or more open if you feel dopey. Look at how your breath feels. Find where it is located, where it contacts your body etc. It may be very different each time, so experiment. Sit comfortably - a chair is okay, as long as your back is straight.

 

If your awareness wanders off, it's no big deal just bring it back and keep doing this. I dislike the words 'focus' and 'concentration' in the context of this practice. I know they mean different things to different people but for me they denote something a bit too harsh and tight. Don't do this kind of thing, it must be kept loose. Five or ten minutes a day, (or even twice a day if you have time), is enough but keep it going.

 

Nothing remarkable should happen at first, but be patient, stick with it and watch carefully. Keeping a diary may help, as it makes you recall the process.

 

Nothing you notice - even from the first session - is irrelevant.

Edited December 9, 2013 by yabyum24

[Anderson]

Your EGO is sublime and timeless.

Worship it and make offerings to it.

 

There is nothing else appart from the state of your EGO who is pure and clear in the same time .

Now you can rest....

[Maddie]

Nice insight into the ego. My own experience has been similar. In practicing mindfulness meditation I have found the RAIN formula to be useful.

 

R- recognize what arises in your mind.

A- accept it (don't be harsh on yourself or try to make what arises "go away")

I- investigate it

N- non-identification (realizing that your thoughts and conditioning are not who you are).

 

The simple act of bringing awareness to what arises in the mind has been very useful in lessening ego's ability to wreak havoc on my peace of mind. Sometimes I actually laugh in meditation as I begin to get a good look at what the ego (my conditioning) is telling me or actually wanting.

[yabyum24]

Nice insight into the ego. My own experience has been similar. In practicing mindfulness meditation I have found the RAIN formula to be useful.

 

R- recognize what arises in your mind.

A- accept it (don't be harsh on yourself or try to make what arises "go away")

I- investigate it

N- non-identification (realizing that your thoughts and conditioning are not who you are).

 

The simple act of bringing awareness to what arises in the mind has been very useful in lessening ego's ability to wreak havoc on my peace of mind. Sometimes I actually laugh in meditation as I begin to get a good look at what the ego (my conditioning) is telling me or actually wanting.

The formula is very good. No suppression, judgement or identification. Just observing and letting it pass.

 

I find there's all kinds of stuff going on in body & mind. You can soon begin to uncover it.

[Simple_Jack]

Nice insight into the ego. My own experience has been similar. In practicing mindfulness meditation I have found the RAIN formula to be useful.

 

R- recognize what arises in your mind.

A- accept it (don't be harsh on yourself or try to make what arises "go away")

I- investigate it

N- non-identification (realizing that your thoughts and conditioning are not who you are).

 

The simple act of bringing awareness to what arises in the mind has been very useful in lessening ego's ability to wreak havoc on my peace of mind. Sometimes I actually laugh in meditation as I begin to get a good look at what the ego (my conditioning) is telling me or actually wanting.

 

That's awesome, always remember the four frames of reference for satipatthana [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html] and always remember the four frames in the context of how Buddha taught the 3 seals i.e. anicca, dukkha, anatta. Otherwise, you're merely practicing dissociation in regards to contact with sense objects, which according to Buddha, is not conducive to stream-entry.

[yabyum24]

Hi SJ,

The idea of this thread is to discuss personal experience rather than 'do's-&-don't's' of meditation.

 

Perhaps you could start an info thread about 'how to meditate correctly according to Buddha' or some such title. Then everyone could read it and know exactly what they should be doing.

 

On the other hand, if you have any direct experience of what you have written, please feel free to share.

[de_paradise]

I think meditation is a tool to give space between actions thoughts and reactions, in real life speed, doing real life stuff, rather than the ultimate tool that in itself searches and dissolves ego. Just as aspirations must be translated into practise, meditational insight must be translated to behavior. Kleshas or negative thoughts and emotions are super easy to find, because you can feel them in the body as negative feelings. Thats years worth of material there. The stories that we constantly make in our minds while doing daily stuff is basically all ego, so its not hard to find. The hard part is to stop the programming and Know how to override it and with what, such as lojong. I get some good insights from meditation. An example is I realized that we can just behold objects, beings etc with no any inner discourse, no minute emotional shift, just beholding.Add to that a dash of child-like curiosity. For example gaze at the dirty dishes, see them as a priori existing as a kind of beautiful sight, and just wondering, curiously about the details and artistry of the arrangement. Meditation is a step, giving a half of a breath of pause before the karmic programmed mind takes you here and there. But just like addicts trying to kick the habit, every morning is a new morning in samsara.

Edited January 12, 2014 by de_paradise

[4bsolute]

Your EGO is sublime and timeless.

Worship it and make offerings to it.

 

There is nothing else appart from the state of your EGO who is pure and clear in the same time .

Now you can rest....

 

Yes, the ego is not seen to be harmful for us. It is essential to experience this life as a human in it's basic level. I am not speaking of experiencing living as a human being to the fullest, for that incorporates many other spiritual levels, which are then accessible by purifying the ego. This then dissolves it.

 

We are going the opposite direction when we want to 'kill' or 'hunt' the Ego. The Ego is part of us, so rather make friends with it. Because you do not understand your enemy. The sence of 'enemy', of seperation is an illusion. And we understand only in a place of relaxation, which is equal to then making friends. Making friends with the Ego and understand it from that place.

 

I advice you to not follow any teachings that create seperation. Ultimately you are to see life as yourself and yourself and life in all things. So pick up such teachings right from the get go, or simply follow your own heart.

Edited January 12, 2014 by 4bsolute

[yabyum24]

I think meditation is a tool to give space between actions thoughts and reactions, in real life speed, doing real life stuff, rather than the ultimate tool that in itself searches and dissolves ego.

This is very true. Meditation can lift you out of the ego-ownership lock-in for a brief moment to show you that there is this "space", that this space actually exists. Knowing this can subsequently inform your reactions out of meditation. Perhaps allowing us to see that we don't always have to react in the habitual way we have done thus far.

But every morning really is a new morning in samsara, as you say.

[yabyum24]

I advice you to not follow any teachings that create seperation.

Absolutely right. I have seen some people seriously tormented by such a futile battle. The guilt it brings them just piles on "the failure" they dread.

[Wells]

There is no "ego" as you new-age guys understand it!

Obviously you guys either hate yourself or you are too weak or too unintelligent to change your personality aspects you don't like. Therefore, an evil ego inside yourself must be to blame. Childish.

[yabyum24]

There is no "ego" as you new-age guys understand it!

Obviously you guys either hate yourself or you are too weak or too unintelligent to change your personality aspects you don't like. Therefore, an evil ego inside yourself must be to blame. Childish.

Thanks for putting us right on that.

[Wells]

Thanks for putting us right on that.

 

It's your psyche that you fragment further to crystallize out a scapegoat to blame for your failures, not my psyche. You selfdestructive new-age guys will surely have "fun" with the results...

 

I prefer to go the converse and by far more intelligent way: Accepting & Integrating to achieve In-dividuality and wholeness.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Dorian Black

[yabyum24]

You selfdestructive new-age guys will surely have "fun" with the results...

You may well mock but we have trees to hug...

 

...it helps with the self-loathing.

[silent thunder]

I don't hunt anything.

If there is effort, it's geared toward letting go and releasing.

 

I find success with full body breathing and present awareness.

[4bsolute]

Absolutely right. I have seen some people seriously tormented by such a futile battle. The guilt it brings them just piles on "the failure" they dread.

 

Yes I can only point out my own mother. Unfortunatelly. I see this battle everyday and the false righteousness when one still is blind, not fully honest to oneself and follows what initially feels good without looking deeper into it..

 

I have found many teachings, for example on youtube, that point out to be in the heart. And what I have noticed myself is that when you are in your heart, and open it, there is an openness towards all things - which is the start of something good, that will then evolve - but, when people are kept in this awakening state, then they are literally blind and so so easy to manipulate.

 

Have you ever watched the young Nityananda and listened careful to his words? He spreads seperation and how many viewers does he have, how many followers?

 

See the world wake up, see the world go into their hearts - and hopefully not see them globally being enslaved once again.

Edited January 14, 2014 by 4bsolute

[4bsolute]

It's your psyche that you fragment further to crystallize out a scapegoat to blame for your failures, not my psyche. You selfdestructive new-age guys will surely have "fun" with the results...

 

I prefer to go the converse and by far more intelligent way: Accepting & Integrating to achieve In-dividuality and wholeness.

 

"You new age guys" remember we are from the same breed here.

 

I see where you are coming from and the terms "love" and "ego" are surely misused quite often from 'Westeners' who are simply new to this inner learning.

 

But isnt it always like that? People have to learn Self-responsibility. EACH individual has to. Yes what we call unity is a wonderful concept but we are not there yet and it will take a time. Like I have pointed out above is that is in everyones best interest to go into him or herself without any concepts gathered in these times, now.

 

I have ONE teacher found on youtube who 'teaches' exactly this and encourages the individual, which is Lincoln Gergar and his ChannelHigherSelf. I have not seen (which does not mean there is no other, speaking of my current limited awareness) any other who encourages self-discovery to such a degree. Basicly limitless self-discovery which is what we all want and NEED.

 

It's your life, so YOU live it through YOUR senses and not through the eyes of another individual that you want to mimic. Apish behaviour.

 

You go the right way if you stay with yourself and trust your inner compass, rather than following ANY teachings. Unfortunatelly this is still what the masses like, because they seem to be spiritualy underaged, are lazy, want to be spoonfed and must learn that anyone can use and abuse you if you follow without listening to your own guidance. You bind yourself energetically to him or her who teaches.

 

Yes our own history of manipulation will come to and end but it is still affecting the minds here

Edited January 15, 2014 by 4bsolute

[yabyum24]

Have you ever watched the young Nityananda and listened careful to his words? He spreads seperation and how many viewers does he have, how many followers?

 

See the world wake up, see the world go into their hearts - and hopefully not see them globally being enslaved once again.

Well said. I've never seen this person but there are plenty like that out there. Mostly they have a kind of "none come to the father but through me" approach. In other words, unless you sign up to their 'vision', you can attain nothing.

 

They don't clarify the path to inner light but they do accumulate a large following of desperate people.

[idiot_stimpy]

Very interesting topic.

 

When you hunt the Ego, you don't realise that it is the Ego that is trying to hunt itself.

 

 

That which is the hunter of the Ego, is the Ego itself.

 

The Ego is the greatest shapeshifter that ever existed.

[4bsolute]

Very interesting topic.

 

When you hunt the Ego, you don't realise that it is the Ego that is trying to hunt itself.

 

 

That which is the hunter of the Ego, is the Ego itself.

 

The Ego is the greatest shapeshifter that ever existed.

 

Hm yes, very good.

[Maddie]

Thought I'd share a recent insight I obtained about my ego, and thought I'd share it to clarify my own understanding of the insight by writing it down, and with the hopes that perhaps someone might benefit from it themselves.

 

First I want to give credit to Ajahn Brahm's talks as they have been invaluable in giving me deeper understanding into the issue of ego. In addition to his talks and other teachings I read on the topic, I applied the wisdom I had learned through hearing to my Vipassana meditation, and then realized that much of what stresses me out is the idea/feeling/notion within my mind of "not being good enough".

 

Now obviously this thought in and of itself alone is enough to cause suffering. Who wants to feel "not good enough"? But it was the ways that my mind reacts to that thought that were quite interesting.

 

I saw how this thought (not being good enough) gave rise to other non-beneficial thoughts. My mind trying to do the best it knows how thought that the antidote might be conceit, criticism, judgment, ect... These in turn caused their very own set of problems like stress, anger, depression, anxiety and so and so forth.

 

For example if my sub-conscious thinks "I am not good enough" this of course creates a bad feeling associated with that thought. Now my mind is experiencing that bad feeling but because the feeling is unpleasant now my mind searches for a solution to this new problem. Because of delusion my mind (mistakenly) thinks that if I feel somehow inadequate then the solution is to make this feeling go away through another thought that will counter-balance the first thought (of not being good enough). What it comes up with is to tell me that far from not being good enough, that instead I am better than good enough.. in other words... conceit. Now thoughts of conceit exist with in my mind, but so does the original thought of "not being good enough" because the new thought did not remove the original thought, so now there are two contradictory thoughts with in my mind (how fun).

 

Because the original thought of "not being good enough" contradicts the new thought of conceit, the new thought of conceit feels challenged. In order for conceit to effectively "do its job" of being the antidote to thoughts of not being good enough, it has to "win" out over those thoughts. In order to do this conceit then produces its own "antidote" of "judgment". Conceit's hope is that judgment will find criteria that will support its cause. So ideally as far as conceit is concerned judgment will find for example someone else and judge them as inferior and therefore me superior and now conceit is strengthened.

 

The problem now is that there are now three thoughts. "Not being good enough", conceit, and judgment. The judgment being judgment and doing what judgment does and judging will then see the other two thoughts of "not being good enough" and "conceit" and judge them as well. When judgment finds aspects of the other two parts of the mind as being undesirable, then judgment gives rise to criticism. So now there are four thought process' in the mind, and they are often at war with each other due to their very nature. This creates a lot of suffering. Criticism criticizes judgment, conceit, and not being good enough. Judgment judges criticism, conceit, and not being good enough. Conceit when judged or criticized can either create more judgment or denial as to try and avoid the judgment and criticism. With denial now there is another thought process that was made to help us, but actually hurts us instead.

 

So as can be seen one non-beneficial thought process gives rise to another non-beneficial thought process which is why using negative thought processes to "remove" negative thought processes will never work, but only make the problem worse. The answer instead is to apply "Metta" (loving-kindness) to the thought processes. If you judge judgment you will only create more judgment. But if instead you apply Metta to judgment, and you tell the judgment (judgment I open the door of my heart to you, I accept you just as you are, I'm going to be kind to you regardless) judgement is disarmed. There is nothing to judge, no more negative thought processes to create.

 

So first you have to become aware of the thought processes in the first place. How can one apply Metta to something it is not aware of? But then after you use insight to become aware of negative thought processes, applying Metta to them is a good way to go about making them relax, and making peace with them so that they no longer fight you.

Edited January 15, 2014 by dmattwads

[yabyum24]

Thanks for sharing that dmattwads. You've certainly highlighted something of crucial importance. All these thoughts are like supports designed to defend the fragile ego - a huge edifice - and an unsteady one at that.

 

Metta is a great method to deal with it, as it just let's you go easy on yourself and it takes the 'poison' out of all the self-criticism etc.

 

My path was initially samatha (with vipassana) and I found something very unexpected inside. Some kind of uneasy, roving darkness and mute force. Like a visceral shadow which did not want to be seen, so I turned my awareness upon it and things started to get very interesting indeed from that point onwards.

[Maddie]

Things do get quite interesting indeed when we begin to look at those things for the first time that we previously spent so much effort in the past to avoid at all costs ;-)

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...

Great post!

 

Self-improvement without guilt or conceit is a very tricky balance. We have to acknowledge our flaws and work at them, but without becoming a disheartened self-flagellator. Accepting who we are is necessary, yet we aren't cultivating in any real way unless we're also trying to improve ourselves.

 

This looks like a catch-22, but it isn't. The key is a form of self-respect based on wisdom. "My flaws are Buddha-nature focused through the lens of delusion. Removing them and the underlying delusion is allowing deeper qualities to flower. I will take action to remove the unskillful habits and impulses that are holding me back".

 

There are two main benefits to this mindset:

 

1) When we act unskillfully - not 'sinfully' -, we then regard the mental factors that led to the action as unskillful and try to remove them, rather than judging ourselves as unskilful. There can be regret without guilt.

 

2) We don't repress our negative impulses, instead we understand that they arise due to delusions, so we work on the delusions themselves. This is much more effective, and means we don't just shove our negative impulses deep into the mind where they fester.

 

So, what could have been internal conflict becomes a process of breaking fetters, not because of a lofty standard we neurotically feel we must meet, but because we value ourselves enough to want to be free of them.

[doc benway]

As there was some interest on this thread about how one can discover the ego via meditation, I thought I'd put my own experience of the topic here for people to try out if they so wish.

 

It's not going to be a scholarly exposition, or comparative analysis (this would just add more junk to the heap). Just bare-bones stuff. If you are looking for juicy debate, esoteric doctrine or mind-blowing revelations, this isn't the place. So comments like "This is just such-and-such a practice" or "Such-and-such a teacher says..." are unnecessary. Please don't bother putting them up. Just take it or leave it.

 

Any procedural questions are okay, and definitely any experiences you may gain through trying it out. Or if anyone else has done something similar.

 

The first thing to understand is that ego does not want to be found - it really doesn't. What we intellectually understand as ego, is just a mental fabrication, un-findable with logic and reasoning. If you want to really 'get' it, you need to observantly wait for it to come to you - like a hunter. Have no expectations or prerequisites for the encounter and keep an open mind. Regard it as a game, or a kind of amusing but unimportant exercise. The key thing is to keep it 'light' and easy-going.

 

Meditation, in many cases, is a matter for the mind. Perhaps we are aware of philosophies which imply that the body is somehow responsible for our suffering and that our 'higher' self is trapped within this encasement of 'weak' flesh. Well, this process is very different. It's perhaps best to view it like Tai Chi or yoga - it's every bit as much about the body as it is the mind.

 

Buddha taught his disciples to bring their awareness to the breath. Not in a forceful, manipulative way, but just enough to be aware of it. Try it with your eyes closed, if you feel too distracted, or more open if you feel dopey. Look at how your breath feels. Find where it is located, where it contacts your body etc. It may be very different each time, so experiment. Sit comfortably - a chair is okay, as long as your back is straight.

 

If your awareness wanders off, it's no big deal just bring it back and keep doing this. I dislike the words 'focus' and 'concentration' in the context of this practice. I know they mean different things to different people but for me they denote something a bit too harsh and tight. Don't do this kind of thing, it must be kept loose. Five or ten minutes a day, (or even twice a day if you have time), is enough but keep it going.

 

Nothing remarkable should happen at first, but be patient, stick with it and watch carefully. Keeping a diary may help, as it makes you recall the process.

 

Nothing you notice - even from the first session - is irrelevant.

 

Also relevant that the very ego we seek is that which is doing the seeking.

I have found it helpful to observe that which is doing the observing.