Daily timetable of the Quanzhen retreat

[opendao]

it is the case.

initially they were collectively known as "Seven School of Zhen Dao" (七真道派 or 北七真道派)

You can check this information on the Chinese Internet.

I plan to write big article regarding this topic.

 

七真道派 just means "7 true dao schools". "True Dao school" is not an abbreviation for Quanzhen here, but just underlines that only these 7 schools are legit (="true") in Quanzhen tradition. And usually the full phrase is something like 全真七子及七真道派.

 

Vitalii, we got that you have no relations to Quanzhen. But why you just don't claim that you mixed Qigong exercises and made a new school? Why all these fantasies, histories and pseudo-scientific proves? A lot of people are doing business without all these. Just be honest. It's a virtue, even in Quanzhen.

[Vitalii]

Opendao, have you read all Dao Zang?

Have you asked all daoist?

 

Opendao, you say that your chinese teacher is very famous in China, can you give us his chinese name and chinese source where we can read about him. Can you prove your words.

[Vitalii]

七真道派 or 北七真道派 was collectively originated from the Quanzhen Tao.

七真道派 was understood short for the seven schools of the Quanzhen Tao.

 

yes, that's what I'm talking about.

[opendao]

Opendao, have you read all Dao Zang?

 

Oh, you've finally found Zhen Dao texts in Dao Zang? Show them, it will clarify at least something. And why you haven't translated them yet?

 

Have you asked all daoist?

 

about what? about Christian sect Zhen Dao Pai?

 

Nobody heard about Zhen Dao Pai as a Daoist school in Ma Danyang lineage. Same for all other lineages you claim and claimed (Liu Dongbin, for example).

 

Opendao, you say that your chinese teacher is very famous in China, can you give us his chinese name and chinese source where we can read about him. Can you prove your words.

 

Your Chinese is so bad so you can't find it? Then it's called "no fate"... I can only say that for other people it was possible.

Can you find at least some texts by the founders? Or it's also impossible?

 

And don't switch the subject, we discuss your school here. Maybe Wu-Liu Pai is hard to find for you as well? Maybe Yuxianpai is not mentioned in many sources? So back to the subject: where Zhen Dao Pai is mentioned as a Daoist school? Right, nowhere. That's is the dead end.

 

P.S. Btw, it's illogical: if you claim a lineage from Ma Danyang and Zhan Boduan, then such school cannot be named as [Quan] Zhen Dao. I think it's clear why. Especially, if all curriculum is mixed out and theories were taken from modern books.

 

P.P.S And last nail in the coffin: can somebody find "Quan Zhen Dao Pai" in _classic_ texts? I mean with Pai at the end, so to prove Vitalii's idea that Zhen Dao Pai is a short version of Quan Zhen Dao Pai.

 

So why not to sell such practices as one more self-made Qigong? It will bring you money and you'll become famous, with your talents, like Mantak Chia, for example. But pretending to be a legit school while you have no relation to Neidan circles... What's a point to fool yourself and others this way, I don't get. I understand it's a fate and in the future more and more people like that will appear, but for me it's really hard to take that it's possible to combine it with "heart-mind cleaning" practices you claim to teach...

[opendao]

 

BTW 全真道, 全真派, 全真教 are synonyms

真道派(Zhen Tao Pai) is not the proper name or synonyms for 全真道(Quanzhen Tao).

 

 

Chi Dragon, it's so good that at least you understand that...

[Vitalii]

Your Chinese is so bad so you can't find it? Then it's called "no fate"... I can only say that for other people it was possible.

Can you find at least some texts by the founders? Or it's also impossible?

 

And don't switch the subject, we discuss your school here. Maybe Wu-Liu Pai is hard to find for you as well? Maybe Yuxianpai is not mentioned in many sources? So back to the subject: where Zhen Dao Pai is mentioned as a Daoist school? Right, nowhere. That's is the dead end.

 

Opendao, you say that your chinese teacher is very famous in China.

Opendao, can you prove your words?

Can you clearly answer simple questions instead vague phrases?

 

Give us Chinese name of your teacher, his lineage and transmission, and Chinese source where we can read about it.

If you cannot prove your belonging to Wuliupai, then you're just fooling everyone.

 

Can you say the name of the Ma Danyang's student who your Yuxianpai school comes from?

[Antares]

Vitaly, I have never attended their seminars only because I live faraway and have no funds for travellenig faraway. But everyone who practice well can meet their teachers and try out their methods. With you problem is that it is not possible to see your teacher bc he exists in your imagination and I hardly believe you can distinguish your fancies and reality. BTW right time schedule is not only the concern in taoism but the virtue as well - do not fool and do not harm others.

[Vitalii]

Antares, you do not know me; you have never been in my seminar or retreat; you did not read my website.

you are simply repeating a lie about me. we can see it very well in this thread

 

The fact that you haven't heard about something, or didn't see something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

There are many schools about which nobody knows in the West, and there's no information about them on in the internet, but it does not mean anything in this case.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Vitalii

[Antares]

Antares, you do not know me; you have never been in my seminar or retreat; you did not read my website.

you are simply repeating a lie about me. we can see it very well in this thread

 

I have read your web-forum few years ago, I spoke a lot to one of your students, I read many of your posts on your forum and it is obviously that you are fake neidan teacher who decieves people for the sake of personal enrichment. There are so many evidences against you that I can not hold my tongue when I can see here how you crave money. Russian web and money were not enough for you and you came here for the same reason.

 

Even exercises in your qigong have the same names as in qigong which instructors' workshop you attended. This is not lie as you always repeat. I read Rusian web last years and I know your strory very very well.

 

 

we can see it very well in this thread

 

what we can see here that only your lie about your teacher in neidan and in taichi. if I post here the photo of your "teacher' teacher" with all students he taught taichi would you be able to point out who is Lu Shi Yan on that photo?

 

no any proof at all and bla bla bla as many years in Russian web Diluted qigong with visualizations, zhan zhuan and park style taichi with no lineage. why should i attend such a funny seminar and pay you?good joke!

Edited December 12, 2013 by Antares

[opendao]

Opendao, you say that your chinese teacher is very famous in China.

 

Yes, in Daoist circles. Your problem is that you have no relations to Daoist circles, so you cannot even guess who is Teacher of Single Yang and how to write his name in Chinese. And yes, it's a test.

 

Can you clearly answer simple questions instead vague phrases?

 

Have you answered any of my simple questions? No. Not even one. Even about your school name. Even about texts. So why do I have to do anything?

 

Your school is self made Qigong, I put my proves in the form of questions but I know for sure that you have no answers to them.

 

 

Give us Chinese name of your teacher, his lineage and transmission, and Chinese source where we can read about it.

If you cannot prove your belonging to Wuliupai, then you're just fooling everyone.

 

Those who want can go and visit and ask all such questions. And get proves and answers.

 

My belonging to any schools can be proved by my Teacher, his Teachers and other students. They are real, can be visited and asked.

 

The reality of Wu-Liu Pai and Yuxianpai is obvious even on textual and Internet level.

 

But Zhen Dao Pai is fake just because we cannot find ANY (yep, zero) traces of this school.

 

Even the school name has no relation to Daoism and just is one of the names of a Christian sect.

 

Vitalii, why do you do it? I don't believe it brings more money then usual Qigong or Yoga classes.

Edited December 12, 2013 by opendao

[Vitalii]

Antares, if you read my forum, why do you say that I was an instructor of Xu Mingtan system? Why you do not know my Taiji Quan Lineage and Transmission?

If you really carefully read my website and forum, you would not be talking this nonsense.

Zhen Dao Pai contain Qigong and Neidan and should not be confused the names of Qigong methods with Neidan.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Vitalii

[Vitalii]

Opendao, you always make grand statements, but when you are asked to explain something or give evidence for your arguments, you only answer that this information is secret or do not give a reasonable answer at all.

If you cannot prove your belonging to Wuliupai, then you're just fooling everyone.

[opendao]

Opendao, you always make grand statements, but when you are asked to explain something or give evidence for your arguments, you only answer that this information is secret or do not give a reasonable answer at all.

 

If you cannot prove your belonging to Wuliupai, then you're just fooling everyone.

 

It doesn't matter here who I am. Even I have no relations to Dao at all, it doesn't make your school not fake.

 

What is really important is that your Zhen Dao doesn't exist in China and in the history.

 

There are no traces nor in popular sources, nor in Daoist lineage documents.

All arguments that Zhen Dao is Quanzhen Dao have no support.

 

No texts. No people. No history. Nowhere to go, nobody to ask.

 

That's the main difference between fake and traditional: all traditional Chinese schools have people, books, places, evidences, history. They just exist in this damn reality. You can go there and get proves that are much more valuable then words in the Internet.

 

Why all this is important? Remeber about Falun Gong? It started the same way as Zhen Dao, pretending to know all Daoists secrets etc. Fake school that destroyed many people and was the reason to prohibit Qigong and Daoist researches in China. Many schools had to hide their existence and even now it's still an issue in mainland China.

Edited December 12, 2013 by opendao

[ChiDragon]

全真(Quanzhen) is "ALL TRUE". Thus there shouldn't be any doubt in DCXM(性命雙修).

The cultivation of Xing is to keep the mind free of contaminants to attain a state of true mind. Let's keep it this way. All corrections should be made accordingly if there was any misunderstanding. It is part of the principles in the DCXM. Please don't try to fight the system because fallacies will fall apart at the final end.

Edited December 12, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Mal]

~~~~~~~ moderator message ~~~~~~~~~

Antares and opendao

There have been reports of several posts in this thread. The moderators are well aware that there is ongoing discussion between participants across threads.

While we don’t need to agree with each other on TTB, please do not be insulting eg

There was only one 真道派 in Chinese history, it was a Christianity group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Lightning

So stop fool people. There was no Daoist school Zhen Dao and it's impossible to find any legitimate traces in the list of schools. In that lists, Quanzhen is Quanzhen, nobody knows about Zhen Dao. And in Daozang there are a lot from Quanzhen, but nothing from ZhenDao.

What of these 7 schools is YOUR lineage is from? Don't repeat about Ma Danyang, because it's obviously not true (based even on your teaching curriculum that is far far away from Yuxianpai's curriculum). And why you name your school as Zhen Dao if you claim a lineage from Ma Danyang?

Invent something else, like maybe 8th hidden Christian branch of Quanzhen. It would be fun at least.

And once you have presented your opinion

Vitaly, I have no goal arguing with you. It is no of any avail.
<snip>
I have no any desire to talk to you any longer as it would be waste of time

Then move on.

If you wish to continue to debate validity, create another thread.
I feel that continuing this debate in this thread would be harassment.
Please stop.

~~~~~~~ moderator message ~~~~~~~~~

[Walker]

Some commentary on ChiDragon's spurious notions for the benefit of those sincerely pursuing study of Daoism.

 

全真(Quanzhen) is "ALL TRUE".

 

One can use all caps, large fonts, bold, underline, blinking text, whatever. That does not give one carte blanche to decide how to translate a word.

 

ChiDragon would like you to believe that because Chinese is his native language that he therefore understands Daoism, and specifically for the purposes of this discussion, the branch commonly called Complete Reality.

 

However, if he actually read primary and secondary sources, he would know that the name 全真 contains multiple layers of meaning which neither "complete reality" nor "all true" effectively convey.

 

One meaning is the "completion" of humanity's three treasures.

 

Another is "completely true" skill and conduct.

 

There is much more to be said about these things. I choose not to write about it here, because providing new information will just supply certain Google and Baidu warriors with new stuffing to pad their posts with as they pontificate on subjects they have not actually studied. Those who have affinity will go deeper.

 

Daoists recognize the limitation of language, yes, but on the other hand the terminology of this tradition is very well-defined and requires real study; simply being Chinese is not enough to let one in the door. One must have oral transmission and an appetite for lots of reading if one wants to be able to hold genuine discourse. Everything else is 门外汉在纸上谈玄, or, less politely, 瞎扯淡.

 

 

Thus there shouldn't be any doubt in DCXM(性命雙修).

The cultivation of Xing is to keep the mind free of contaminants to attain a state of true mind. Let's keep it this way. All corrections should be made accordingly if there was any misunderstanding. It is part of the principles in the DCXM. Please don't try to fight the system because fallacies will fall apart at the final end.

 

Within the last month or two, ChiDragon declared in all caps that he had never seen xing and ming mentioned in any Taoist text. His bold statement would indicate that he is not familiar with the Triplex Unity (周易参同契), Understanding Reality (悟真篇), classics of Zhongli Quan and Lv Dongbin, and writings of Qiu Chuji.

 

In other words, before he deleted his ejaculation, he confessed that he, in fact, has not studied the key writings of the very tradition that he would like you to believe he understands.

 

Later ChiDragon did some searching on Baidu, edited his post, and reinvented himself as an expert on this subject, his not-very-old post nowhere to be seen.

 

Readers beware. Suffice it to say, xing ming is not so simple as he would have you believe.

 

It is rather confusing with the Taoist terminologies when they are putted into English. For example, 全真道(Quanzhen Tao), All True Tao was commented by members of TTB that is not good English. If we drop the first character 真道(Zhen Tao), then we have "True Tao". Why should we be so concerned about the nomenclature rather than its contents? Do we always judge the book by its cover? Come on.

IMO Vitalii and Zhen Tao are legitimate.

 

Here ChiDragon seems to be asking a rhetorical question, but actually there is a very specific answer.

 

In Daoism lineage passed down from master to disciple is considered extremely important. One knows which lineage is which because lineages have names. This type of nomenclature is not taken lightly in Daoism or other aspects of traditional Chinese culture, including the martial, medical, artistic, and musical worlds.

 

In more than one thread ChiDragon can be seen suggesting to Vitalii that the latter change the name of his school to 全真派 or 全真教. I have no comment on the legitemacy or lack thereof of Vitalii's school. What I can say is that any person who would suggest changing the name of one's school to that of another, pre-existing lineage, not only does not understand Daoism, but also has a very limited grasp of traditional Chinese culture.

 

What ChiDragon says is akin to telling a taiji teacher who has been accused of not knowing genuine taiji that perhaps he could just change the name of his martial art to xingyi or bagua.

 

FYI....
Meditation will replace some of the sleep that one was missing. One will be more refreshing after a meditation session than from a long period of sleep. That is one of the main purposes for meditation.

 

Here ChiDragon reveals that he has neither done much meditation, nor read books about it, nor listened to people who have gone through years of meditation.

 

Various forms of meditation are all known to initiate healing responses in the human body, one of the many effects of which is increasing the need for sleep until the process completes. Reaching the stage where meditation can replace sleep is not a simple matter.

 

Those who have put in the hours know this. Those who have not can only spout incredible ideas.

 

Unfortunately, they manage to do so by the many thousand and can turn message boards into bully pulpits by virtue of sheer quantity.

 

I know everything you said pertaining to the Quanzhen Tao is true because I know the language but others aren't. So, please make the correction to avoid any future challenges about the legit of the Taoist sect.

 

Sigh.

 

Knowing the Chinese language and understanding Quanzhen teachings are completely different things.

 

An Israeli who knows Hebrew but has never been to synagogue is no more prepared to lecture on Judeaism than ChiDragon is to lecture on Daoism.

 

Believing otherwise is 骗己骗人.

 

Again, one cannot just change the name of one's school to Quanzhen or anything else to avoid confusion, challenges, and whatnot.

 

The dismaying thing is that I could continue in this vein seemingly ad infinitum.

 

Those who would enter the door of this tradition are advised to know that the dogs constantly yapping outside of the gate may simply be strays looking for a place to lift their legs, and not the actual gatekeepers.

 

Moderators please take note.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Walker

[ChiDragon]

walker.....
These are the only comments I hear from you all the time. Is there anything else new that you know about me....??? Why don't you read the messages correctly instead of twisting the words and killing the messenger. I don't think you understood a word I had said due to your preconceived idea about me not practicing anything at all. FYI You didn't hear anything from me about any of your comments because I have reservation for you. No hard feeling!


Edited to add a smile.

Edited July 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Walker]

You have posted excessively voluminous misinformation and disinformation (alongside some genuine information as well as things I lack the ability to comment on) about Daoism for several years.

 

By becoming the pervasive presence on this forum, as well as by taking the tone of expert, de facto you put yourself in the role of teacher.

 

My aim is to apply scrutiny to your teachings and, yes, to discredit them where they are too aggregiously false.

 

In other words, I only post to kill the message.

 

As for your personal longevity, I hope that you enjoy good health for as many years as you need to develop great wisdom. It is a long path. Save your breath.

[Antares]

Moderator: Then move on.

If you wish to continue to debate validity, create another thread.
I feel that continuing this debate in this thread would be harassment.

 

Well, I would stop but Vitaly applied to me and I only replied to his posts.

As for creating new thread for these debates I personally do not see the point for that as this thread has no any concern about authentic teaching of Quanzhen sect. I only post here in order to express my opinion that it's nonsense to discuss such issues on the forum when there is NO REAL KNOWLEDGE about taosim and people do not really discuss taoism but their interpretations of authentic taoism and thus it makes no any sense to stay on the subject. Vitaly has no any concern to discuss Quanzhen and hi has his personal goal here. So any further discussion will make no sense if Vitaly has no any relation to Quanzhen sect - this is what he states here that he has. But you are right, I already said enough.

[Antares]

And BTW this is quite relative to the subject.

http://taotemple.org/2012/11/01/four-pillars-sixteen-fortitudes-right-lifestyle/#practice-time

 

But someone does not have enough recognition for that.

 

The Fortitudes of Right Effort and Right Attitude

 

The third and fourth Fortitudes are the Fortitude of Right Effort and the Fortitude of Right Attitude – and while we must distinguish one from the other, these Fortitudes go hand-in-hand, like a ladder you climb to keep moving upward. If your attitude is Right, you can apply Right Effort to your life and practice, but you will need to make an internaleffort that is Right in order to produce the Right Attitude, you see. Now, I do not mean “right” by some manufactured religious code or social standard, no. I mean that your Effort and Attitude must be situated in the Path of Truth and to that aim exclusively. This requires gradual development for sure, and will change as you grow, but it is relevant to note the importance of steering your focus toward the Center and its Light as much as possible, for you have a great mountain to climb; there is no point loitering about in fruitless ventures that may well bury you under an avalanche if you’re not careful. For example, blindly (or knowingly)contributing to the corrupt systems of the world that ultimately bring ill health and disservice to yourself, your fellow humans and to the Earth, is not a product of Right Effort. The willful participation in such systems under the flimsy justification that you need to do so in order to live or that you have “no choice” is not a product of Right Attitude. Such issues are a matter for deeper consideration – your Life may depend on it, as your karma and your success hang in the balance!

Edited December 13, 2013 by Antares

[Vitalii]

Antares, stop deceiving people.

 

You started writing insults and lie in my address http://thetaobums.com/topic/32886-daily-timetable-of-the-quanzhen-retreat/#entry504673

I did not refer to you after your words " I have no any desire to talk to you", but you continued to write lie about me http://thetaobums.com/topic/32886-daily-timetable-of-the-quanzhen-retreat/page-2#entry504756

[Antares]

Okey. I will not reply to Vitaly's post. I will ask moderators here.

 

Many people asked V. for the proof of his lineage for years. I myself was considering his "school" few years ago. It took me time to read his web-forum, talk to people about him and so on. So it took time from my life. Even now I have to spend my time for him.

 

Why am I doing this? Why I do not hold my tongue on him? The answer is above in my previous post.

 

What's next? Vitaly reported on my posts where I clearly explained where he is wrong but he continues to call me liar. Where I lied about him? All I said I can prove. There are many other evidences I mentioned.

 

If I report to mods about his lie on me what's next? Will be he banned? Will he stop to fool people?

But I can just hold my tongue and this is probably best option in this case. May be yes but may be not.

 

He states that he practices Quanzhen meditations and teach others for money but just have a look on his life style. Posting on the web almost every day and call people liars when they say truth, speculate on taoism, arguing and so on.

The only question what he can teach others? Is it relevant to the thread or not?

And I stop here definitely. i will not reply anymore on V. posts as it takes my time

[Mal]

And I stop here definitely. i will not reply anymore on V. posts as it takes my time

 

Thank you - I will edit and add more in a sec

 

Antaries, I feel you have presented your point of view. It's only fair that Vitalii replies here, although he has already presented links above.

 

And thank you for reporting this post too as it allowed me to reply quickly (I was doing something else)

Edited December 13, 2013 by Mal Stainkey

[Vitalii]

Where I lied about him?

 

Antares,

 

1) your lie: "In other thread there was concern about a system of Xu Mingtan. It is well known that Vitaliy was instructor in that qigong system." http://thetaobums.com/topic/32886-daily-timetable-of-the-quanzhen-retreat/#entry504673

 

but in reality: "I've never been an instructor of Xu Mingtan system." http://thetaobums.com/topic/32886-daily-timetable-of-the-quanzhen-retreat/#entry504681

 

2) your lie: "And he had no even proper name of it in Chinese and there were only 2 words in the name of the school. Then people said to him there must be 3 characters and he added third one" http://thetaobums.com/topic/32886-daily-timetable-of-the-quanzhen-retreat/page-2#entry504756

 

but in reality: it is your misunderstanding of elementary things. I did not add the third word.

"2 words" is School of Zhen Dao (真道) ; "3 words" is Zhen Dao Pai (真道派)

School of Zhen Dao = Zhen Dao Pai ; 派 translated as "school"

 

3) your lie: "Also ask him about his "taichi" lineage. He can not prove his taichi lineage" http://thetaobums.com/topic/32886-daily-timetable-of-the-quanzhen-retreat/page-2#entry504756

 

but in reality: Anybody can find information about my Taijiquan Lineage and Transmission on my webpage.

 

 

Antares, If you really carefully read my website and forum, you would not be talking this nonsense.

you are simply repeating a lie about me.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Vitalii

[Antares]

Antaries, I feel you have presented your point of view. It's only fair that Vitalii replies here, although he has already presented links above

 

I can prove my statements that this is not lie from my side. I can post here the print of the screen from his old web-site where he called his school as "Zhen Dao Qigong". And that there was not proper name in Chinese and so on. I can post here many of these proofs and I could give other links but it will be offtopic, yes?