Daily timetable of the Quanzhen retreat

[Dolokhov]

He is giving harm to practitioners.

 

Other disciplines (Monasteries of the Orthodox Christian tradition) also have two hours of sleep without bad side effects, though I agree such a thing is not for beginners. (And neither is this retreat, according to Vitalii.)

 

 

 

"The head of the Daoist School Zhen Dao outside the territory of China is Vitalii Lishchyna."

"At the moment Master Lu Shiyang (吕實陽) is the Grandmaster of the School."

 

initially they were collectively known as "Seven School of Zhen Dao" (七真道派 or 北七真道派)

if you knew the history of Quanzhen, you would know that there are seven schools of Zhen Dao in China.

 

Just a question Vitalii for my own understanding: I didn't know that an unbroken lineage existed for Zhendao as is the case with the Celestial Masters of Tianshi Mountain, though I do know that Wang designated one of the seven disciples to be his successor - could you tell me more about that?

[Starjumper]

EXPLAIN HOW DO THEY MANAGE NOT TO GET HARM?

 

 

He already did that, a couple of times, at least.

 

Ego interfering with reading ability; hmmm?

[Starjumper]

My point in asking you this is to understand how you are the head master if your sifu is alive and well.

 

Im not doubting that a young Caucasian male could be the head master of a taoist sect im sure your master gave you a certificate that shows that you are the current Head of the sect.

 

When someone starts giving out certificates for wizard's schools then you can be sure the world has gone to hell

[Vitalii]

Just a question Vitalii for my own understanding: I didn't know that an unbroken lineage existed for Zhendao as is the case with the Celestial Masters of Tianshi Mountain, though I do know that Wang designated one of the seven disciples to be his successor - could you tell me more about that?

 

I wrote a big article about Wang Chongyang and history of Quanzhen.

when I publish it on my website I will give link here.

[Dolokhov]

I wrote a big article about Wang Chongyang and history of Quanzhen.

when I publish it on my website I will give link here.

 

Thanks! I'll have to read it - I don't know a lot about this sort of thing

[thamosh]

 

"The head of the Daoist School Zhen Dao outside the territory of China is Vitalii Lishchyna."

"At the moment Master Lu Shiyang (吕實陽) is the Grandmaster of the School."

 

In my school, very high requirements to students who want to be teachers are set. They should be able not only to know well the Daoist theory and perform well in a variety of exercises and meditative practices, but also have a high level of virtue and pure heart.

I make very strict exams in all disciplines that I teach, and particular attention is paid to the practice of internal alchemy and understanding of the Daoist philosophy.

 

 

Ah ok I understand this makes much more sense to me thank you .

[Isimsiz Biri]

He already did that, a couple of times, at least.

 

Ego interfering with reading ability; hmmm?

 

No he did not. He said there is no harm for advanced students. That is all. I asked

 

HOW?

[thelerner]

How; with training. Lots of training. And as pointed out earlier, long meditation can fill in for sleep. In some way you are right, no one in there normal state of mind can do such training. But you're not in a normal state. Such training is about putting your mind and body somewhere else.

 

Such training is nothing compared to extremes Hindu holy men or some extreme monk traditions go through. Look up the Marathon Monks of Mount Hiei. Aikdioist John Stevens wrote a fascinating book about them. After daily running an almost triple marathon for 2 years, they do the 7 day death fast; no food, no water, no sleep SEVEN DAYS. Impossible ofcourse but they do it. http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mt-hiei

 

"Following the 700th day of running, the monk engages in a seven-day fast, known as the doiri, in which he must abstain from food, water, and sleep, while sitting upright and constantly reciting Buddhist chants. Two monks remain next to him to ensure he doesn't doze off even once. The purpose of the doiri is to bring the monk face-to-face with death."

 

How? Extreme training. What I find interesting is the few monks that have made it through don't seem like stiff ascetics, they seem pretty open about life.

Edited January 2, 2014 by thelerner

[Isimsiz Biri]

How; with training. Lots of training. And as pointed out earlier, long meditation can fill in for sleep. In some way you are right, no one in there normal state of mind can do such training. But you're not in a normal state. Such training is about putting your mind and body somewhere else.

 

Such training is nothing compared to extremes Hindu holy men or some extreme monk traditions go through. Look up the Marathon Monks of Mount Hiei. Aikdioist John Stevens wrote a fascinating book about them. After daily running an almost triple marathon for 2 years, they do the 7 day death fast; no food, no water, no sleep SEVEN DAYS. Impossible ofcourse but they do it. http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mt-hiei

 

"Following the 700th day of running, the monk engages in a seven-day fast, known as the doiri, in which he must abstain from food, water, and sleep, while sitting upright and constantly reciting Buddhist chants. Two monks remain next to him to ensure he doesn't doze off even once. The purpose of the doiri is to bring the monk face-to-face with death."

 

How? Extreme training. What I find interesting is the few monks that have made it through don't seem like stiff ascetics, they seem pretty open about life.

 

This is NOT an explanation. I have to say that you are completely ignoring energy work and thinking that if one practice long enough, then he can do it.

 

From your link:

The most recent monk to complete the challenge was 44-year-old Genshin Fujinami (shown at right), who finished the pilgrimage in September of 2003. He was the first monk to do so in nine years, and only the twelfth since World War II.

 

It is a very seldom occurrence. Yet, ALL of the advanced students of Vitalii succeeds with two hours sleep?

Edited January 2, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[silent thunder]

How; with training. Lots of training. And as pointed out earlier, long meditation can fill in for sleep. In some way you are right, no one in there normal state of mind can do such training. But you're not in a normal state. Such training is about putting your mind and body somewhere else.

 

Such training is nothing compared to extremes Hindu holy men or some extreme monk traditions go through. Look up the Marathon Monks of Mount Hiei. Aikdioist John Stevens wrote a fascinating book about them. After daily running an almost triple marathon for 2 years, they do the 7 day death fast; no food, no water, no sleep SEVEN DAYS. Impossible ofcourse but they do it. http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/mt-hiei

 

"Following the 700th day of running, the monk engages in a seven-day fast, known as the doiri, in which he must abstain from food, water, and sleep, while sitting upright and constantly reciting Buddhist chants. Two monks remain next to him to ensure he doesn't doze off even once. The purpose of the doiri is to bring the monk face-to-face with death."

 

How? Extreme training. What I find interesting is the few monks that have made it through don't seem like stiff ascetics, they seem pretty open about life.

Well stated.

 

That's a fine explanation, unless of course someone were purposely refusing to acknowledge it...

 

One of the easiest and lowest vibrational practices to engage in, is purposely poo-pooing things outside your frame of comfort and experience. This dampens the heart field and reduces energy flow adding to blockages, it's another form of hard-core training that leads to all manner of health challenges and social discomfort... Eventually the system will respond and force you to reevaluate methods or health and relationships will suffer.

 

We can break the laws of man all day, as they are mere ideas.

We break ourselves on the laws of energy which are foundational and not optional.

[thelerner]

This is NOT an explanation. I have to say that you are completely ignoring energy work and thinking that if one practice long enough, then he can do it.

 

It is a very seldom occurrence. Yet, ALL of the advanced students of Vitalii succeeds with two hours sleep?

That is my explanation. A normal person, not a chance; but a uniquely dedicated person, committed heart and soul, can do seemingly superhuman things. Vitalii's course is no Marathon Monk death fast or even as hard as normal week out of the year for a monks of mount Hiei. No comparison, the seminar has little sleep and lots of meditation, an unusually long special training. I'd expect there are a number of trainings across the whole range of arts that have similar super arduous training.

 

I think <later edit this is overly presumptuous of me given that I don't know the system and its rigors> given 6 or 8 months of semi-intense (3ish hour a day) training I could do it. Course I've been accused of living in fantasy world before. The more I look at it, it's not really that intense. Its little sleep, but 14 hours of meditation a day. Not easy, but I've seen harder. You catch the right wave length and you float on it. If someone gets up in the middle to stretch they're probably not beaten up either.

 

Here's a question for Vitalii. If someone was dedicated and a middling practitioner (years of practice but not hardcore), how long would it take to be ready for your seminar? How many hours a day would you say the training would require? If you want to go further, what would the practice be like?

Edited January 3, 2014 by thelerner

[Brian]

Actually, college students do this to themselves for fun. Two hours sleep and then cold pizza and (hopefully something other than) warm beer for breakfast. Not particularly good for you, obviously, but not terribly damaging, either.

 

Sleep deprivation is core to the theme of many reality shows. If Tyra Banks's next top models come through relatively unscathed, I imagine a neigong student with a restorative technique or practice in her repertoire should fare fairly well...

Edited January 2, 2014 by Brian

[Vitalii]

Here's a question for Vitalii. If someone was dedicated and a middling practitioner (years of practice but not hardcore), how long would it take to be ready for your seminar? How many hours a day would you say the training would require? If you want to go further, what would the practice be like?

 

Much depends on how and which methods a person practices. From my experience, I can say that some of my students, who practiced under my leadership, could prepare themselves for a traditional retreat in one year. During the year, they had to practice special methods of Minggong and Xinggong and to pass a usual retreat like this

Those students that have not been very diligent, could not prepare themselves for a traditional retreat even in a few years.

Therefore, I am careful with letting people come to a traditional retreat, and if a person does not have enough experience, I do not accept his/her application.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Vitalii

[silent thunder]

Actually, college students do this to themselves for fun. Two hours sleep and then cold pizza and (hopefully something other than) warm beer for breakfast. Not particularly good for you, obviously, but not terribly damaging, either.

 

Sleep deprivation is core to the theme of many reality shows. If Tyra Banks's next top models come through relatively unscathed, I imagine a neigong student with a restorative technique or practice in her repertoire should fare fairly well...

I lived in a polyphasic sleep pattern back when I was attending University in my early 20's.

Did it for several years, taking the summers off as I had more time and slept more 'normally'.

I graduated with honors, found married and stayed with my wife and performed in dozens of professional stage productions.

My wife, does not function well on less than eight hours of sleep. She's been that way the last 25 years I've known her and shared her bed.

 

Sleep patterns are individual and sleep deprivation is one of the simplest, and most direct ways to achieve an altered state of perception, aside from breath control/sublimation/retention...

 

Stop the fear mongering Isi, it's just consciousness...

[Isimsiz Biri]

Actually, college students do this to themselves for fun. Two hours sleep and then cold pizza and (hopefully something other than) warm beer for breakfast. Not particularly good for you, obviously, but not terribly damaging, either.

 

Sleep deprivation is core to the theme of many reality shows. If Tyra Banks's next top models come through relatively unscathed, I imagine a neigong student with a restorative technique or practice in her repertoire should fare fairly well...

 

MTV Youth.

[Isimsiz Biri]

That is my explanation. A normal person, not a chance; but a uniquely dedicated person, committed heart and soul, can do seemingly superhuman things. Vitalii's course is no Marathon Monk death fast or even as hard as normal week out of the year for a monks of mount Hiei. No comparison, the seminar has little sleep and lots of meditation, an unusually long special training. I'd expect there are a number of trainings across the whole range of arts that have similar super arduous training.

 

I think given 6 or 8 months of semi-intense (3ish hour a day) training I could do it. Course I've been accused of living in fantasy world before. The more I look at it, it's not really that intense. Its little sleep, but 14 hours of meditation a day. Not easy, but I've seen harder. You catch the right wave length and you float on it. If someone gets up in the middle to stretch they're probably not beaten up either.

 

Here's a question for Vitalii. If someone was dedicated and a middling practitioner (years of practice but not hardcore), how long would it take to be ready for your seminar? How many hours a day would you say the training would require? If you want to go further, what would the practice be like?

 

You have written your good intent assumptions which do not apply in this specific case.

[Starjumper]

 

He already did that, a couple of times, at least.

 

 

No he did not. He said there is no harm for advanced students. That is all. I asked

 

HOW?

 

Well now, I'm NOT going to bother to look anything up for you, although you just answered it yourself just now. Instead I'll try a little different angle to address your concern that's so (epithet deleted) that you have to constantly YELL :

 

Who really gives a damn if some students loose a little sleep, hmmm? Are you serious? Like the man said, meditation can make up for sleep in advanced meditators; and even if some of them were low on sleep at the end of the seminar, who really gives a fack? What's your problem anyway? The students know in advance what the schedule is so they've been forwarned and have decided to do it, so who gives a flying flapjack anyway? Why, you do, by yourself, defending the innocent from lack of sleep!! Crusaders Untie!!

 

Also, there's another thing, a lack of sleep regime can have useful educational purposes, like for breaking people down, brainwashing, things like that.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Starjumper

[thelerner]

You have written your good intent assumptions which do not apply in this specific case.

You know what does apply in this case? I wrote (egotistically) I could do his retreat w/ 6 months of training. A con 'swami' would say 'Yes, you're right. You could do it, why don't you sign up', because they want bodies and the money they bring to the retreat. They don't care who's qualified, its irrelevant since they 'know' everyone will fail.

 

Vitalli didn't respond that way. He said it takes a year after initial training. He didn't push the art at all, no claims its the Best, just showing what an intense retreat was like.

 

What I get out of this is, he's honest. His standards are high and he's wants only qualified people to do the retreat. I think this thread has reflected well on him. And IB should be a little more open to the possibilities of higher practices and training out there.

'

[Isimsiz Biri]

You know what does apply in this case? I wrote (egotistically) I could do his retreat w/ 6 months of training. A con 'swami' would say 'Yes, you're right. You could do it, why don't you sign up', because they want bodies and the money they bring to the retreat. They don't care who's qualified, its irrelevant since they 'know' everyone will fail.

 

Vitalli didn't respond that way. He said it takes a year after initial training. He didn't push the art at all, no claims its the Best, just showing what an intense retreat was like.

 

What I get out of this is, he's honest. His standards are high and he's wants only qualified people to do the retreat. I think this thread has reflected well on him. And IB should be a little more open to the possibilities of higher practices and training out there.

'

 

Your optimism is really good. I am sure you are protected by Divine Realms. Having said that, you are definitely wrong. Higher practices and training do exist but not in this specific case.

[thelerner]

Your optimism is really good. I am sure you are protected by Divine Realms

Do you think I'm protected by Divine Realms? Are you being sarcastic? Insulting or kinda stupid? I honestly can't tell.

 

Stop derailing threads.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Do you think I'm protected by Divine Realms? Are you being sarcastic? Insulting or kinda stupid? I honestly can't tell.

 

Stop derailing threads.

 

I am not derailing. I asked HOW? (The question is about Vitalii's method (?), nothing else) It will be much better if you stop talking your fantasies because you are starting the derails.

[Starjumper]

IGNORED.

 

GO TO A MENTAL INSTITUTE.

 

 

Tsk ,tsk, if there was only a mirror around here somewhere.

[Starjumper]

Isimsiz Biri, you smell like a Buddhist to me, are you Buddhist?

[Jetsun]

~~~~~~~ Mod Warning ~~~~~~~~~

 

Isimsiz Biri personal insults are against the forum rules, we are now in discussion about what further action will be taken, please do not continue to post insults or you will be suspended

 

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[Dolokhov]

Abbot Pastor said: Get away from any man who always argues every time he talks.

-Sayings of the Desert Fathers