Fuck karma

[BaguaKicksAss]

Disclaimer, the views expressed in this post are my own and in no way whatsoever reflect what any of my teachers past or present believe or taught me (though they have have led to some grey hair or loss of sleep over the years in said people). I also titled the thread in such a way as to give a warning that my views about such things may not necessarily be the popular opinion, nor popular on TTBs .

 

So anyways... the concepts of karma and hell, I think are ridiculous. I do not mean actual karma, I mean what people have made it into and their views on it. Also I don't mean actual hell, as I have not seen nor experienced such a place, and believe more that hell is our own personal crap in the here and now, and perhaps hereafter. What I mean in this thread is people's views of hell.

 

OK so, I find it sort of messed up that some folks base their actions on a fear or reward system. For example the only reason they are not robbing other people, lying all the time, being selfish, not harming others, not selling kids into slavery... is because they are afraid of negative karma or hell?! Wow. I wouldn't trust such a person as far as I can throw them personally. What if they for example found out without a doubt that such concepts do not exist? Or what if their beliefs changed?

 

Dictating one's actions based on what others tell one to do, I find ridiculous. We are told good karma for such and such, and bad karma for other such and such. Heaven for such and such, and hell for such and such. Do people really do good actions just to get some sort of reward, or perhaps less punishment? This seems extremely selfish to me!

 

OK to recently I actually felt some karma, it was sort of neat, it was an energy of some of mine being released because I did some super awesome go out of my way with no personal benefit to myself thing for someone. Neat. HOWEVER, there's no way in hell I'm going to go doing things for people just so I can eliminate my own karma. Wouldn't that defeat the entire purpose of helping others? I wonder if when someone helps you, but they are doing so just to decrease their own rebirth cycle type of thing, that it feels like an ulterior motive at all? (though realistically I feel it's probably more a bit of both here). Also, the spirits I work with will warn me if something I'm about to do will cause some negative karma for me. I still base my decision on whether it seems/feels right for me to do, whether it fits into my personal ethics, and sometimes whether I just want to do it anyways . For example if helping out a friend, I might not care if it's going to bring about an extra bit of negative karma (though I guess this could also be seen as selfish on my part as it is not a complete stranger).

 

So how about instead we just treat people decently so they have a better day? Or maybe help others to see them suffer a little less? Or not be an ass, because being a decent person is a better option all around. Why must we get some reward from it, or avoid some punishment for it?

 

/rant

Edited December 11, 2013 by BaguaKicksAss

[Thunder_Gooch]

All realities that could exist, do exist.

 

All realities are just as real, just as alive, just as populated with mindstreams (as real as yours) as the one you are in right now.

 

The reality you currently reside in, is the one your mindstream has navigated to via your actions thoughts etc. That's karma.

 

Karma is burning your hand on a hot object, or winding up in the wrong neighborhood at 1am.

 

For every action there is a consequence, most are unforeseen.

 

If your third eye were open you would be able to realize the consequences of your actions before you performed them invoking a sort of retro-causality.

 

Chang says there is indeed a bank account like system for our actions while alive, if the bank account is in the red you go to a temporary hell where you burn it off via suffering, and if in the black you experience a temporary heaven to burn off the good karma. Neither state lasts forever.

Edited December 11, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[C T]

Rant noted.

[C T]

Karma is a wide WIDE term, and will take many lifetimes to even scratch the surface of knowing exactly how it works.

 

Whatever it is, it is not restricted to a mere reward/punishment schema.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Is not Karma balance?

 

Is not Karma Cosmic Law?

 

We may struggle as if bound by it, or accept it's authority, and seek to understand it.

 

Perhaps it is a form of symmetry.

 

I'm not sure ignorant people can abuse karma in the way suggested.

 

If they are least reminded to do good, that's fantastic.

 

I do agree though, that motivation is important.

 

...

[BaguaKicksAss]

All realities that could exist, do exist.

 

I'd quite enjoy being able to hop around and explore several . I mean in more than just my visions/astral or whatever.

 

The reality you currently reside in, is the one your mindstream has navigated to via your actions thoughts etc. That's karma.

 

Thoughts as well, hmmm...

 

On a side note, I have noticed that each and everything that I ask or pray for comes to be. I have lots of experience with "be careful what you ask for" too though .

 

Karma is burning your hand on a hot object, or winding up in the wrong neighborhood at 1am.

 

I've been seeing the whole burning my hand thing as more purely physical occurrences and nothing above or beyond that. Though sometimes I do feel an energy from the past or going towards the future from such events (but not all, only the important ones maybe?), that feel like it is from something or changing something.

 

For every action there is a consequence, most are unforeseen.

 

Reading webcomics?

 

OK I'm curious then... say I do something "bad" like hit someone for no reason. Does this automatically bring negative karma? Or could it bring about some good karma if it made the person change their life in some way, or they had some negative karma coming? I have heard that emotion behind it is relevant as well. If I had no emotion (being neutral) behind it, or did it out of love, no karma, but if I was in a rage of anger lots of karma. Not so sure if I beleive that or not. Though I'm pretty sure it's more complex than that. Damn butterflies flapping their wings...

 

If your third eye were open you would be able to realize the consequences of your actions before you performed them invoking a sort of retro-causality.

 

That would be pretty interesting, so see the ripples and what it brings on all levels . That would, get pretty intense if it were to happen often. Perhaps I will try to be open to this once in awhile and see what happens. Though I'm not so sure I want to calculate all of my actions that much in most situations, but watching like a movie could be interesting.

 

Chang says there is indeed a bank account like system for our actions while alive, if the bank account is in the red you go to a temporary hell where you burn it off via suffering, and if in the black you experience a temporary heaven to burn off the good karma. Neither state lasts forever.

 

Sounds like temporary heaven gets in the way just as much as temporary hell... Are you saying that I should make sure this week to tell a bunch of people they are ugly or something? I'm obviously just kidding, but does one purposefully make sure to balance it out, do you think?

 

Now with this sort of thinking... if I beleived it to be true (I'm still undecided on this one, but again thinking it's not as linear and simple as all that).... one might go ahead and do a bunch of nasty stuff, then just do a whole bunch of really good deeds to make up for it. (hmmm makes me think of the mafia guys that go and do confession a lot).

 

I think maybe not a regular bank account perse, but an international savings account, with 1000 different currencies, some stocks, some bonds, some employees who steal from accounts, some hackers, some crappy banking here and there...

 

OK so maybe I just like an interesting reality/universe .

 

I am not sure if that's accurate as I haven't reached the level I could access that but I do know the rest of Chang's observations about yin energy, and spirits is spot on so I have no reason to doubt it.

 

Have you ever seen a direct or indirect result of your actions and just *known* it was the ripples of karma in action? Pretty interesting stuff.

 

Karma is a wide WIDE term, and will take many lifetimes to even scratch the surface of knowing exactly how it works.

 

Whatever it is, it is not restricted to a mere reward/punishment schema.

 

I figured it was a bit larger than reward/punishment . Though I unfortunately see/hear of people acting in this manner, or due to their odd beleifs about it.

 

On a side note, every once in awhile I ask the spirits/universe to help me understand karma. Personally I go by personal experiences or insights and perceptions in meditation, to understand things. So I ask for these experiences to come. My life tends to get interesting when I ask for these insights .

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

If your third eye were open you would be able to realize the consequences of your actions before you performed them invoking a sort of retro-causality.

 

Perhaps certain "events" can cause "ripples" that move both forwards and backwards in time, thus invoking the retro causality you mention.

 

Perhaps "causation" (which is an aspect of karma) can occur forwards and backwards in time, ie an effect in the present might be the result of a cause in the future, as much as causes in the present effect results in the future.

 

I suspect only a truly advanced being could effect such a thing.

 

You'd have to be moderately advanced to even understand it!

 

...

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

I'd quite enjoy being able to hop around and explore several . I mean in more than just my visions/astral or whatever.

That's all you or anyone else has ever done since birth.

 

The present moment isn't a firm static reality, it's a nexus between realities.

 

As you make choices, think thoughts, etc, you are moving between realities each and every moment you are alive.

 

Also the me of a moment ago is no longer the same mindstream, but rather another mindstream with an identical history.

 

As time progresses you will interact with an infinite amount of mindstreams you believe to be one person, yet as each individual mindstream makes choices it will move to other realities.

 

Right now everyone you ever loved that died, that system of information still exists and is populated by active mindstreams still believing they are that person.

 

Everything we could do in our lifetime had already been done before we were born.

 

Every possible life action and outcome exists just as real and is also populated by a mindstream living it's life believing it is you, because it is.

 

All ideas you could have, books you could read, things you could do, all of those existed prior to your birth.

 

All realities exist as real as all others, future, present and past are just perspectives that exist in relation to your location at any given moment.

 

 

 

 

OK I'm curious then... say I do something "bad" like hit someone for no reason.

Does this automatically bring negative karma?

 

More like, if I have plenty of money in my bank account and buy a pair of shoes does it matter?

 

At death all debts come due, and all payments are made or at least that is my understanding.

 

Perhaps a drop in the bucket doesn't matter at the moment but over time it adds up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like temporary heaven gets in the way just as much as temporary hell...

Well either way your account will reach zero before the next stage before rebirth.

 

 

 

 

 

Have you ever seen a direct or indirect result of your actions and just *known* it was the ripples of karma in action? Pretty interesting stuff.

 

Yes.

Edited December 11, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[silent thunder]

I sense Karma is like a river of conditions.

We contribute to the conditions by action/reaction/intention.

The river carries us.

 

You can fight the current, or flow with it.

River follows Tao.

[Rara]

I see what you're saying BKA.Again, it's down to unproven dogmatic stuff that floats around religion and misinterpretations.

 

This forum is quickly making me learn that it's just not worth concerning myself with anything superstitious. Otherwise I'll go round and round in circles, and possibly mad.

 

Back to Taoist simplicity for me...otherwise I'll miss all the heavenly glory

[Apech]

When I read the title ´Fuck Karma´ I thought it was going to be about how if you have sex with some one it rubs off on you. Perhaps I´ll rephrase that. Then again maybe not.

[suninmyeyes]

Karma is cause and effect ,the reason why is something the way it is . Maybe even more correct , sort of attachment to cause and effect .

For example to make tea happen -- one needs to take tea bag and a cup , and boil the kettle . Last night shopping contributed tea come to life , together with a shopping bag , clock to see if shop is still open , clothes that keep warm , house keyes , waterproof shoes and money erned . So many causes and causes of the causes just for single cup of tea . Like this everything comes to life , not necessary only bad or good ,heaven and hell .

Some paths calculate a lot and do rituals according to star positions etc .....it can get pretty strenous and complicated .

 

Personally I do not think in terms of karma but in terms of tracing back the cause within and with that uprooting the mental and emotional weeds and unecessary seeds .

 

Yes I def agree with you on practising being a decent person . This is a platform for more universal understanding , without it it is just not going to happen .

Edited December 11, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[BaguaKicksAss]

When I read the title ´Fuck Karma´ I thought it was going to be about how if you have sex with some one it rubs off on you. Perhaps I´ll rephrase that. Then again maybe not.

 

But it does . The realization that hit when Sifu explained this... if I'd known this earlier in life... lol.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Personally I do not think in terms of karma but in terms of tracing back the cause within and with that uprooting the mental and emotional weeds and unecessary seeds .

 

I like this . Though I have only tried it on major past negative events, yet I guess it can be useful in many other ways as well.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Where it all gets really confusing is that past life stuff. And if it wasn't confusing enough already, lately I have been remembering my past lives more and more. In a sense of feeling like I've had one really long 500 years life or something. I take breaks though and allow myself to forget again, it's rather... trying... at times.

 

The folks that calculate and keep track of karma; I'm lucky to remember all of the books I've read .

[suninmyeyes]

Yes I can understand , I was thinking the other day that psychic stuff (in many ways ) is not really fun as it takes a lot of adjusting and skill , some stuff I just rather not know . It would be easier .

Edited December 11, 2013 by suninmyeyes

[RongzomFan]

Bad Karma is being scared of the bardo of dharmata.

 

Good Karma is recognizing bardo of dharmata as yourself.

[BaguaKicksAss]

That's all you or anyone else has ever done since birth.

 

The present moment isn't a firm static reality, it's a nexus between realities.

 

As you make choices, think thoughts, etc, you are moving between realities each and every moment you are alive.

 

Interesting, in that case then, perhaps I would like to be more consciously aware of it . I have always seen it more as 1000 BKA's living 1000 different existences/possibilities/realities, but with one particular existence/reality being the main focus of each of these BKAs. (perhaps I can swap out with the one whom is better at spelling for a bit until I finish posting here :>)

 

Also the me of a moment ago is no longer the same mindstream, but rather another mindstream with an identical history.

 

Billions of MPGs! So say I were to go all Dark City (if you haven't seen the movie please do, you'd like it) on one of them, how would that affect things? Or say I were to convince one of these MPGs that their past memories are false? Or say if one of these billions of MPGs gets all curious and starts wandering around and runs into another of these MPGs? How would these sceneries play out do you think?

 

I have had an experience before where someone I know at different times would have different amounts of information about me (we had known each other for about 8 years at the time), but also would have different songs on his hard drive, and different items around the house. I'm still not sure if that was me or him, or both, or? It was very odd, and brought up the entire discussion of multiple BKAs and multiple him's and multiple realities and timelines in the first place. I haven't experienced it with anyone else that I am consciously aware of though. Going off topic, nah, not at all .

 

As time progresses you will interact with an infinite amount of mindstreams you believe to be one person, yet as each individual mindstream makes choices it will move to other realities.

 

So as you and I are having a conversation, there are an entire heap of you, and an entire heap of me and swapping out?

 

No wonder modding was so difficult!

 

What about the MPG that is siting down the street at the local coffee shop (nowhere near where you live now I mean)? Or how come ALL the MPGs who post on TTBs have the same work hours?

 

Right now everyone you ever loved that died, that system of information still exists and is populated by active mindstreams still believing they are that person.

 

This sounds like a way to liven up my necromancy to me . Or along those lines, the billion MPGs listed above, what if I evoke one of them? How many of them would that affect? Or how about all the people I have loved (wondering with your wording if emotion is relevant here or not?) but that we just lost contact with each other over time. Perhaps some of me's and some of them's are still hanging out :>.

 

And, OK so say I think it would be really nifty to have a conversation with the MPG that's already reached immortality...

 

Everything we could do in our lifetime had already been done before we were born.

 

Due to my various experiences of this lifetime, I already feel like I have lived a few lifetimes in my past 43 years!

 

So how do past lives play into this? Is it sort of like my personal perception lately that I have just lived one long 500 years life, but billions of BKAs doing this, OR, does it split off somehow between lives, or? I mean what do you think at a guess? Not like we know this stuff completely :>.

 

Every possible life action and outcome exists just as real and is also populated by a mindstream living it's life believing it is you, because it is.

 

Perhaps I'd like to hop over to the one who's been practicing Bagua for 40 years, than hop back...

 

I honestly can't think of anything in life I would have changed... but just say I had some regret, can one go back and change this up somehow? (the reason I have no regrets is that each action I did, or each thing that happened to me whether good or bad, led to particular teachings and paths I have been fortunate enough to experience). Also, there should be some dead BKAs from about 6 years back, or actually a few times over... wonder how that works.

 

All ideas you could have, books you could read, things you could do, all of those existed prior to your birth.

 

So along these lines, ones which existed in what I view as many years prior to my birth, or perhaps not in my possession in this lifetime, could also be read? I have actually done some previous experimentation with this and old grimoires. It was definitely an interesting experience. And you *know* where I'm going with this...

 

All realities exist as real as all others, future, present and past are just perspectives that exist in relation to your location at any given moment.

 

I wonder why I'm choosing this one, instead of the me as priestess at the temple of Horus in Egypt back in the day?

 

So how do you think that works for people who are say schizophrenic? I have volunteered in an asylum, and known a few schizophrenic people, so such questions have come up.

 

More like, if I have plenty of money in my bank account and buy a pair of shoes does it matter?

 

According to some teachings and teachers, yes, it is a do positive karma stuff as much of the time as possible. I have found personal reasons why this can be a good practice, it can clear one out and make the energetic flow stuff easier, as well as bring more peace and so forth. I wonder if there is 20% interest like on credit cards? Also I tend to shop 80% off factory sales in the mundane physical sense... wonder if there is some karma equivalent. If there was some way to hack karma I would :>. Not get out of anything, or lesson anything, just for the pure fun of it, to see if it would work. Actually that is my motivation for quite a few things, exploration and to take things apart and see how they work.

 

At death all debts come due, and all payments are made or at least that is my understanding.

 

OK soooooo, how does that work for folks who take the immortality path and actually manage it? Can they not manage it unless all the debts are paid before death (this seems to follow the thinking of some writings), or is it more like your first however many years of it is paying those off, or more like you don't ever pay them off? As I seem to have experienced, karma gets paid off all the time, day to day, in this lifetime (or perhaps that is just that spell I did regarding karma here and now instead of later which I didn't put enough pre-thought into?)

 

Perhaps a drop in the bucket doesn't matter at the moment but over time it adds up.

 

Well either way your account will reach zero before the next stage before rebirth.

 

How about the folks who follow different religions, or have different beleif systems? Who/what decides about this? Or is it more like it just sticks to us and follows us around? What if one person's karma is transfered to another? (I have heard of such things)

 

Yes.

 

Now I'm curious, but will ask you more about this via PM .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Btw, More_Pie_Guy and the moderation team, please, please I'd like MPG in this particular thread to just use regular posting style .

[chegg]

(source: http://indiagitasociety.org/uploads/Theory_of_Karma.pdf)

Theory of Karma

1. What is Karma?
Any action is Karma. An action can be physical, mental, or even verbal. Thinking is also an action. If you decide not to act it is also an action.
2. What are various types of Karma?
Kriyaman karma- routine actions.
Sanchit karma- accumulative actions.
Prarabtha karma- ripe reaction (some call it luck ).
How you decide to respond to these fruits is also an action.
3. What is good Karma?
There is no such thing as “good” or “bad” in the theory of karma. Both bind you. A Good deed will have good consequences and bad deed will have painful results.
4. Why do good people seem to suffer more? Why do bad people appear luckier?
The theory of karma is difficult to understand. “ Gahana karmno gati.” If you understand the theory, everything will make sense. Things happen as they should.
5. What is Nishkam Karma?
Karma performed without selfishness is Nishkam karma (one without expection).
Akarma is opposite of vikarma. Laziness is not Akarma.

Few principles of Karma Theory
1. The karma theory has no exceptions. You cannot escape the consequences. The impact can be reduced or modified. How you respond to the “fruits” of your past action binds you to your next chain of Karma, modern science will interpret as genetic DNA decoding/genetic imprint, example: King Dasharatha and Shravana.
2. Experience of your level of pain/pleasure depends upon your Gunas- inner character.
Three major gunas: Satvic (noble), Rajas (undeveloped), Tamas (evil), example: a doctor treats his patients differently.
3. The fruits of your action may bind you in your next birth. Reincarnation goes on until you break the chain or have paid for all your actions: good or bad.
4. You are free to initiate new karma but the result is not in your hand. If you are too anxious about the result, your karma will be less efficient. King manu says; Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are the important goals of life.
A: karmanye ave – adhikarastu. B: Ma faleshu kadachan. C: Ma karma fal hetu bhu.
5. Good deeds cannot wipe out bad deeds. Example: Yuthistir saying “ Narova kunjro va. “
6. Declaration or bragging of the good work reduces its gain, and confession of the sins helps you reduce the impact. Example: King Yayati lost to Indra. Jesal was helped by Toral.
7. Inner thought or motive makes the differences. Exqmple: Shabari and Ram.
Arjuna is reluctant to fight but Shri Krishna tells him to kill for good reason.
8. Goal of a wise man is to perform the work without binding himself. Yoga means to unite. Harmony between the inner self and the outer world reduces the conflicts. A balanced link between the mind, speech and action brings inner peace. Yogaha karmashu kaushalum. “ Skillful performance is yoga”
9. A yogi works but remains unattached. How does he do that? Certain Karma does not bind you. For Example: action performed as your duty. Work performed without any selfish motive. If a soldier kills during a war he is not a murderer.
Karmayogi works for the sake of his duty. He does the best of what he can do without the selfish motive or anxiety of results. “Unattached “does not mean he does a second class job. He takes victory and defeat in a matured stride.
10. Gyan Yogi: Enlightened one has the spiritual wisdom in anything he does. He/she have fully realized God. All his actions are therefore part of his oneness with God. Hence the fruits or the chain of action does not bind him, e.g. crime and punishment in your dream disappear when you wake up.
11. Bhakti Yoga says if you submit all your actions to your love for God, all your actions are part of your worship. “Yat karosi yada nyasi .. Submit all your action to me, they will purify instantly.”
12. All methods of doing yoga (Karma, Gyana, Bhakti ) ultimately result in Moksha or Nirvana. This is the stage where you are free from all the debts of your actions and you are one with God. You need not to take birth again. Free from birth, death, pain, pleasure. Thus you can reach a state of divine joy forever.
In summary, the theory of Karma provides a special insight in how you act and interact with your inner self and outer world. Your perceptions of the things make the difference. Karma does not mean that life has to be dull. In fact, the theory helps you work hard and solve your problem leading to more success and happiness. A Karma Yogi is like a good sportsman. He works hard at practice, plays the game with all his mind, body and heart. He tries to improve his skill in his game as he reaches a higher level. He enjoys the game but does not play just to win the game. In essence, he is a cool guy who does not get upset or unduly happy regardless of the outcome. He looks at the bigger picture and long range goal of his life.

 

 

 

Blessings of 'Limitied but Good' Karma

:wub: :wub: :wub:

Edited December 11, 2013 by chegg

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yes I can understand , I was thinking the other day that psychic stuff (in many ways ) is not really fun as it takes a lot of adjusting and skill , some stuff I just rather not know . It would be easier .

 

It's as if you get to experience the good and the bad, on many different levels. Though I'd rather know and be aware than not know, even including the trips through skid row and walking past people who have died in horrible ways. At least it is made up for with various other experiences.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Bad Karma is being scared of the bardo of dharmata.

 

Good Karma is recognizing bardo of dharmata as yourself.

 

Would you be up for explaining what these terms mean? The idiots guide please, I know nothing of these paths. Though it is likely I have heard of or maybe even experienced for a second these things before but either had no name for them or called them something different .

 

Just guessing from the context perhaps they mean "non existence"?

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm curious, what is so terrible about the whole death and rebirth cycle? Sure you forget everything (but in not all cases), and you have to start over (but not in all cases), but aside from what what is so bad about it? Though I guess I could live without having to go through those years of excruciating physical pain in my early years, over and over again... if things are said to repeat that closely to each other. But what about all the good stuff too, the whole get to keep helping others (from this plane instead of the next one over), I'd get to relearn Bagua again . Then also as a teacher pointed out once "re-fall in love with your beloved". And sushi, I might miss sushi. Though above and beyond all that, I'm curious why it is considered such a bad thing. All the reasons I give are more about my personal enjoyment, but I figure (obviously) things go way deeper than that. What if each time you come back, you get to help say 100 people suffer less? But say maybe can only help 50 people if you are above and beyond this plane, or perhaps not help those who need it the most?

 

I have experienced states of 100% freedom, and complete bliss . While utterly awesome and such, perhaps it is just different than the states of arg why am I still in this body, how do I manage to stay blind, crap my back hurts, my negative ego won this week??

[Wells]

Imo, the imagination of karma is a way for some people to be able to make (a wrong) peace with the overwhelming injustice in the world.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

Where it all gets really confusing is that past life stuff. And if it wasn't confusing enough already, lately I have been remembering my past lives more and more. In a sense of feeling like I've had one really long 500 years life or something. I take breaks though and allow myself to forget again, it's rather... trying... at times.

 

Perhaps it is one's time sense changing, one's idea of what constitutes time, and what constitutes the self.

 

I remember and I forget.

 

It is easy to forget.

 

But I seek to remember.

 

The way of Dao is the way of remembering, always.

 

...

Edited December 11, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell