yabyum24 Posted December 14, 2013 If y'all had just used the word unawareness.... . Darn words in other languages get me everytime lol. But there are 12, and now we are down to one? This conversation is very humbling for me ROFL. The twelve links are taught as a means to describe & analyze the volitional process (aka karma) which drives our existence. The key one (and the final to be removed) is ignorance. Check this out: Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you. "And what is dependent co-arising? From (1) ignorance as a requisite condition come (2) fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes (3) consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes (4) name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the (5) six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes (6) contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes (7) feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes (8) craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes (9) clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes (10) becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes (11) birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then (12) aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. Source here. Mahayanists also accept this teaching. Vajrayanists additionally take vows to uphold sutra as well as tantra. Sutra is never denigrated or dismissed by a true tankrika. Sutra forms the foundation for everything else. When a person gains enlightenment they see the 12 links dissolve into each other in reverse, as they enter cessation, and then once more in sequence as they re-emerge back into samsara. Once seen and comprehended, the power of the links is shattered and the mind freed. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 Couple of questions on the 12 chain things.. We are all suffering? I'm guessing we just aren't aware of it? Sort of like some headache sufferers didn't realize they had headaches until they were gone? (but on a much larger and profound scale than my analogy obviously). How about the folks who are actively suffering? I hear lots of folks saying life sucks, they can't stand it here, etc., etc. Or am I missing something? Sounds like some sort of negative reinforcement thing for practice... This whole ignorance thing, I'm guessing it means caught in the illusion? The more we see past that and break through that, the less suffering? Please bear with me here, I only heard of this stuff for the first time a few hours back . Then further on down the list, is it meaning that the more we buy into this illusion and think we actually exist, in this mind/senses/forum/body/self/etc. the worse off we get? So how does that all relate to karma? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 The twelve links are taught as a means to describe & analyze the volitional process (aka karma) which drives our existence. The key one (and the final to be removed) is ignorance. That makes sense, thank you . So on those days where I'm doing really well and all connected and let the divine/higher self/whathaveyou guide my actions, is there still karma, or are those days I'm not creating any? The best example of this is when I'm doing healing and I've stepped out of the treatment room, and all is dictated by the divine. If I catch BKA having wandered back in for a moment, I will stop and reconnect. Sometimes I will get hours or days like this to, if I'm doing something important, or just randomly run into it. Will reply to the rest once I've read it a few times :>. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 14, 2013 Her butt is safe from you ??? I'm confused. You read more into that than I wrote. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 The twelve links are taught as a means to describe & analyze the volitional process (aka karma) which drives our existence. The key one (and the final to be removed) is ignorance. Check this out: Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, I will describe & analyze dependent co-arising for you. "And what is dependent co-arising? From (1) ignorance as a requisite condition come (2) fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes (3) consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes (4) name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the (5) six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes (6) contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes (7) feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes (8) craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes (9) clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes (10) becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes (11) birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then (12) aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. Source here. That last one seems like the most familiar to us humans. The others go a bit deeper. ? I'm reading number 12 (and perhaps the others) from the perspective of someone who spent 30 years of their life in pain about as bad as labor pains. I really don't see much personal suffering ever since that left. Oh sure there are brief moments of frustration or sore muscles from training, or bummed out about something... but really I wouldn't call it suffering. I guess there is the feeling of less connection to the divine or whatever than I have had at previous times in the past, and this leads to some sort of suffering in a way perhaps. I'm guessing, get rid of those 12 and I'm good to go? (in theory I mean) The list sounds more like things that fall away with practice instead of say "I think I'll get rid of death and rebirth and form this year". Mahayanists also accept this teaching. Vajrayanists additionally take vows to uphold sutra as well as tantra. Sutra is never denigrated or dismissed by a true tankrika. Sutra forms the foundation for everything else. I hope RF will forgive me for looking up the word Sutra on wiki... . Would the above be reading or reciting? (if that question is not relevant I blame wiki) When a person gains enlightenment they see the 12 links dissolve into each other in reverse, as they enter cessation, and then once more in sequence as they re-emerge back into samsara. Once seen and comprehended, the power of the links is shattered and the mind freed. I'm sort of amazed they have this down to a fine art, neat. Back to wiki for "samsara"... Hold on, re-emerge? Thought they were all dissolved including the cycle of death and rebirth? You mean you have to keep getting rid of these 12 over many lifetimes? :> Or is it a once and you are done sort of thing? Soooo say you only get to #3, that's it start over from number 12 next life? Do many people manage this? I'd assume not, but then again you do have a good pile of folks who spend their entire lives in meditation in temples and such. I'm also assuming that things get better and better as you work through each one, so it doesn't matter if all 12 are accomplished or not. So how does your average westerner with a full time job, 2 kids, living in a city, with many distractions manage this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 I'll just remember back to that one post where someone said (CT maybe?) that it takes many lifetimes to even understand karma a tiny bit, and not worry too much if I don't get it this week . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 14, 2013 We are all suffering? Hehehe. That stopped me a long time ago as to trying to understand more about Buddhism. The suffering was referring to particulat people in a particular land, at a particular point in time. If we are told often enough that we are suffering we will indeed begin suffering. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 Hehehe. That stopped me a long time ago as to trying to understand more about Buddhism. The suffering was referring to particulat people in a particular land, at a particular point in time. If we are told often enough that we are suffering we will indeed begin suffering. 9-5 office workers in north america? I have found that suffering vanishes with perspective. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 14, 2013 9-5 office workers in north america? Hehehe. I have found that suffering vanishes with perspective. I think you have found the key. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 Hehehe. I think you have found the key. I was serious about that first bit. That is where I have seen the most real suffering in my travels. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted December 14, 2013 I was serious about that first bit. I know you were but it just came off as funny to me. I have always had the philosophy that no matter what kind of work I had to do when I was working I needed to find a way to make the work fun. If we can manage that there would be very little stress, and we would be able to enjoy what we were doing. Kinda' like finding a job doing what we would do if we had the time and money to do it as a hobby. That is where I have seen the most real suffering in my travels. And this is truely sad because there is so much truth in what you said. And following that is discontent with the mate we are living with. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 Since I have been criticised for quoting Wiki (which is done by the way because it is the easiest resource for linking to and I always check that I agree with what it says before linking anyway) - samskara or mental formations or volitional formations is the second step in the 12 steps of dependent origination. As far as I understand it - having misunderstood the world through avidhya (ignorance) then mental formations are laid down which themselves form the basis for karma. @BKA - the 'suffering' referred to is three fold. 1) suffering suffering like pain and discomfort, 2 ) suffering arising from impermanence i.e. even nice things don't last and 3) suffering from conditionality. In fact suffering is a bad translation for dukkha which actually means something like unsatisfactory ... and suggests that nothing in the world is the 'answer', or enough or the 'it´ that you are seeking. This is because the 'it' that you are seeking comes from dropping ignorance and seeing things as they really are. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 I know you were but it just came off as funny to me. I have always had the philosophy that no matter what kind of work I had to do when I was working I needed to find a way to make the work fun. If we can manage that there would be very little stress, and we would be able to enjoy what we were doing. Kinda' like finding a job doing what we would do if we had the time and money to do it as a hobby. And this is truely sad because there is so much truth in what you said. And following that is discontent with the mate we are living with. It is a common joke, so just clarifying that I meant it. Yes fun in work is very important. I have personally found that good co-workers are more important than anything else, including pay scale. I would prefer to have a lesser paying job with a good work environment than vice versa. Also the right co-workers can make a crappy job fun. I have seen so much depression, frustration and sadness in people who have jobs they hate, and it is one of the things which troubles me the most. I always encourage everyone I know to do what they love the most, no matter what, just working towards it somehow anyhow. Of course most have to take crap jobs in their 20's, but at least heading towards a job you love is important IMO. I feel really blessed this way. I think I'm an expert on that second one lololol. I see it as much lesser suffering than the job bit; you don't need a lover, but you do sort of need a job of some sort. However with relationships, even the worst ones imaginable, the person is still your best friend, spiritual partner, and there are still the good times/bits in amongst the crappy bits. I did have one friend where her husband wouldn't let her practice her magical/spiritual system though! Had a student where he had to practice his in secret so his wife didn't freak out on him. Yeah those relationships didn't last long. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted December 14, 2013 Since I have been criticised for quoting Wiki (which is done by the way because it is the easiest resource for linking to and I always check that I agree with what it says before linking anyway) - samskara or mental formations or volitional formations is the second step in the 12 steps of dependent origination. As far as I understand it - having misunderstood the world through avidhya (ignorance) then mental formations are laid down which themselves form the basis for karma. This makes sense, thank you . Am I understanding right that karma is just about our own world/stuff created out of our false mental formations? If so, then it's just us. ? And those who have gotten rid of all those, karma no longer exists for them? If so, neat. Also if so, I need to have a little talk with myself and get this straightened out . I'm guessing it's not *quite* that simple though... @BKA - the 'suffering' referred to is three fold. 1) suffering suffering like pain and discomfort, 2 ) suffering arising from impermanence i.e. even nice things don't last and 3) suffering from conditionality. In fact suffering is a bad translation for dukkha which actually means something like unsatisfactory ... and suggests that nothing in the world is the 'answer', or enough or the 'it´ that you are seeking. This is because the 'it' that you are seeking comes from dropping ignorance and seeing things as they really are. Would fear of change be sort of the same or similar to #2? Not sure what is meant by conditionality? The dukkha bit makes sense. Where would that whole suffering on a "soul" level that people sometimes feel fall under? A suffering they can't put their finger on it seems. Personally I think it is a not on the right path in life sort of thing, but I could be wrong on that one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 (edited) This makes sense, thank you . Am I understanding right that karma is just about our own world/stuff created out of our false mental formations? If so, then it's just us. ? And those who have gotten rid of all those, karma no longer exists for them? If so, neat. Also if so, I need to have a little talk with myself and get this straightened out . I'm guessing it's not *quite* that simple though... Would fear of change be sort of the same or similar to #2? Not sure what is meant by conditionality? The dukkha bit makes sense. Where would that whole suffering on a "soul" level that people sometimes feel fall under? A suffering they can't put their finger on it seems. Personally I think it is a not on the right path in life sort of thing, but I could be wrong on that one. The way that karma is taught in Buddhism is that it is cause and effect. The word actually means literally action. I cannot explain it fully to you, much as I would like to, partly because of my own limited understanding and partly because no one with ordinary consciousness can properly understand it. The way it is taught is as a kind of guide ... or praxis ... so that you just accept that your actions have some kind of consequence ... so it matters what you do, what choices you make - because they have an effect. So if you have a choice you can use it as a guide. But it is not something to obsess about or make elaborate theories about. Because Ramzongfan likes people to quote books here is a quote from a key text that people doing the ngondro study: The Torch of Certainty by Jamgon Kongtrul Since the doctrine of 'action,cause and result' [i.e. karma] contains the fundamental message of the limitless collection of Buddha's teachings, it is exceedingly profound and extensive. Only a person who has reached the 'one-valueness' realisation will have cleared up his doubts about 'action, cause and result'. Ordinary people will not really understand it. But generally, this sums it all up: A whole some cause yields pleasant results; an unwholesome cause yields an unpleasant result. I think that the fact that the idea of karma does arise in samsara and so is part of dependent origination and yet is a profound aspect of the nature of reality makes it perplexing to us. So to answer your question I suppose it is about us and also not about us at the same time. Fear of change would be about trying to hold on to things which are fundamentally ephemeral. So obviously a mistake and part of number 2. A lot of Buddhism works at removing mental tightness, clinging on to things that we think make us happy. This is not a way of trying to be miserable by the way, its a way of being free and happy all the time in all circumstances based on the recognition that everything is empty (not in a negative sense) but in the sense that they can be enjoyed without wishing to hold on to them. Let things come and go ... a bit like wu wei I suppose. Conditionality is about the fact that fundamentally 'things' phenomena are limited or shaped by name and form (or function). So even if they give no pain, even if we ignore the fact they are temporary they are limited in some way. So they cannot be the answer to that which we are looking for. Suffering at a soul level - sounds a bit like existential angst - I suspect this would come under conditionality in that we feel that somehow fundamentally we are dissatisfied with our lot, or who we think we are, or somehow we are not quite 'getting it' - somethings wrong somehow .... this is a good feeling to have in my opinion ... but is difficult and uncomfortable so hard to endure ... if we feel like this then we should look deep into it and we will learn something profound ... or that's my feeling. These are just my thoughts not proper teaching by the way but I hope they go someway to help explain a few things. Edited December 14, 2013 by Apech 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted December 14, 2013 Since I have been criticised for quoting Wiki (which is done by the way because it is the easiest resource for linking to and I always check that I agree with what it says before linking anyway) - samskara or mental formations or volitional formations is the second step in the 12 steps of dependent origination. As far as I understand it - having misunderstood the world through avidhya (ignorance) then mental formations are laid down which themselves form the basis for karma. Why do you 2 keep saying the second link is karma?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 Why do you 2 keep saying the second link is karma?? it is not me that says this but many others for instance: http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/12links.pdf see page 11. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted December 14, 2013 Soooo say you only get to #3, that's it start over from number 12 next life? Do many people manage this? I'd assume not, but then again you do have a good pile of folks who spend their entire lives in meditation in temples and such. I'm also assuming that things get better and better as you work through each one, so it doesn't matter if all 12 are accomplished or not. So how does your average westerner with a full time job, 2 kids, living in a city, with many distractions manage this? No, it all boils down to: It is the conceited belief in “I” and “me” that makes one think that the five aggregates are “me” or “mine.” If one eradicates this inner demon, all the outer demons will automatically be destroyed. For example, when one cuts a tree at the root, all the branches and leaves are brought down in the process. Similarly, since the root of the demons described here is contained in this inner demon of self-centered conceit, it is this that we have to destroy. - A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted December 14, 2013 it is not me that says this but many others for instance: http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/12links.pdf see page 11. Yeah when 3 western disciples transcribe, edit, translate etc. meaning gets lost. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 Yeah when 3 western disciples transcribe, edit, translate etc. meaning gets lost. Could you give me the correct translation then? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted December 14, 2013 (edited) Could you give me the correct translation then? This is some sort of Oxford book: http://books.google.com/books?id=al_Wlh2mwWIC&pg=PT187&dq=The+formula+of+dependent+arising+states+that+#v=onepage&q=The%20formula%20of%20dependent%20arising%20states%20that&f=false Edited December 14, 2013 by RongzomFan 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 Yeah when 3 western disciples transcribe, edit, translate etc. meaning gets lost. http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh015.pdf ok here is another from a different Buddhist tradition saying more or less the same thing. (see page 7) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 This is some sort of Oxford book: http://books.google.com/books?id=al_Wlh2mwWIC&pg=PT187&dq=The+formula+of+dependent+arising+states+that+#v=onepage&q=The%20formula%20of%20dependent%20arising%20states%20that&f=false That seems to me to be saying more or less the same thing but without using the word karma. Every other example I have found uses the word karma. Can you explain why you think this is wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 14, 2013 http://books.google.pt/books?id=d9WKrLmJUuYC&lpg=PA60&dq=The%20formula%20of%20dependent%20arising%20karma&pg=PA60#v=onepage&q=The%20formula%20of%20dependent%20arising%20karma&f=false "Karma is the proximate condition for the arising of consciousness" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted December 14, 2013 A History of Indian Buddhism: From Śākyamuni to Early Mahāyāna By Akira Hirakawa suggests all 12 links are karma, like CT said. But not any particular link of the 12 links is karma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
