Fuck karma

[Nungali]

The path to enlightenment and happiness is a secret now? Well, thank goodness you published it !

 

I hope you don't get into trouble from the 'guardian of secrets'

[Simple_Jack]

Lots of questions. I'll try to do them justice (briefly)

 

1. Suffering can be interpreted in different ways. The obvious one is the stuff we all know but it would be disingenuous to claim that all life is this kind of suffering. As Marblehead points out, there's bikinis and short skirts etc. Samsara is not called the Desire Realm for nothing. Some of it feels really good, so let's check this out.

 

Buddha claimed that he only ever taught about 2 things; stress and it's release. Wow, that's not much and what did he mean? (later).

 

Stress (the one we know about) is unpleasant. It's release can comprise of many things; sex, alcohol, tobacco or whatever (no moral judgement). Anything which relieves stress, we like. It's all fairly obvious. Addiction to anything is the repeated need for relief.

 

2. But it goes way deeper than this. In deep states of meditation (Jhana), inherent underlying stress is shed and it can be experienced exactly how this happens. Of course when you arise from such a state, the mind contracts again and you can feel how the underlying stress returns.

 

Repeated practice of this begins to dissipate the self-grasping mind and the stress does not return to the level it was previously.

 

This is really what Buddha is getting at. Self-grasping mind causes stress, so there can even be stress when pursuing our normal 'stress-busting' pleasures. Yeah, even those contain the stress of a contracted mind.

 

Buddha re-emerged. Same body, aggregates etc. but samsara no longer wielded any power over his mind - he was unbound in the here and now. Liberated.

 

3. I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't comment on that but there are recognized stages of attainment. But all 12 links are present to your awareness in some measure, even now. It's only the depth of insight which ultimately transforms your being.

 

4. By meditating on the breath. Simple. You only need a modicum of seclusion - a bit of 'me time' and to have the intent.

 

The bold is beginning to scratch the surface of dukkha in Buddhism. I'm going to create a thread in the Buddhist sub-forum which will delve into this further. I will also address the 12 links of dependent origination in that thread also.

[Apech]

The bold is beginning to scratch the surface of dukkha in Buddhism. I'm going to create a thread in the Buddhist sub-forum which will delve into this further. I will also address the 12 links of dependent origination in that thread also.

 

 

So your thread arises dependent on the causes and conditions of this and other threads.

[BaguaKicksAss]

The bold is beginning to scratch the surface of dukkha in Buddhism. I'm going to create a thread in the Buddhist sub-forum which will delve into this further. I will also address the 12 links of dependent origination in that thread also.

 

Link here please .

[Simple_Jack]

The bold is beginning to scratch the surface of dukkha in Buddhism. I'm going to create a thread in the Buddhist sub-forum which will delve into this further. I will also address the 12 links of dependent origination in that thread also.

 

Start of new topic here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32980-why-so-much-emphasis-on-dukkha/

[BaguaKicksAss]

Interesting . Is that sort of like the day my weeklong headache finally vanished... but I forgotten I had had one until it was gone?

 

Or the time I managed to get to the whole completely free feeling after a long-term retreat... hadn't realized I wasn't in this state already .

 

I have noticed more underlying stress than I realize at times, and am often surprised, especially when there is nothing to be stressed about and I am supposedly "relaxed" at the time.

 

Though I could be missing the point entirely and just reading my own personal stuff into this...

 

(didn't post this in buddhist as I know nothing of the path and this concept, and am likely missing the concept )

[Simple_Jack]

Also, the above is merely scholarly tenets and contains no practical application. It's certainly not a good summary of Buddhism. You also claim to have no interest in the teachings of Buddha, so why don't you post the teachings that you do have interest in and have found personally helpful?

 

You ever heard of Sutra Mahamudra? It's basically a systematized application of what RongzomFan posted.

[BaguaKicksAss]

My frustration of trying to understand half the posts in this thread has led to my new topic over in Buddhist discussion

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32982-so-how-do-you-guys-do-stuff-idiots-guide-in-plain-english/

[Marblehead]

My frustration of trying to understand half the posts in this thread has led to my new topic over in Buddhist discussion

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/32982-so-how-do-you-guys-do-stuff-idiots-guide-in-plain-english/

Don't worry about that now. If you are drown to learning more it will start to fall in place at some point in time, else you will remain confused. Hehehe.

 

I read the posts but don't try too hard to understand as Buddhism is not my cup of tea.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'd say I'm more trying to borrow and understand some basic concepts .

 

All paths have similarities, and a lot of buddhists have that no mind, no desire, neutral to all things, stuff down really well!

 

Hmmm, Taoists too, perhaps a similar thread over in that section. Taoists tend to be really really long-winded though lol.

[Marblehead]

I'd say I'm more trying to borrow and understand some basic concepts .

 

All paths have similarities, and a lot of buddhists have that no mind, no desire, neutral to all things, stuff down really well!

 

Hmmm, Taoists too, perhaps a similar thread over in that section. Taoists tend to be really really long-winded though lol.

Hehehe. What? Me long winded? No, I just talk often.

 

Yes, understanding the concepts is of much value. Even for a person like myself I find concepts within Buddhism that are spoken to much better than other beleif systems.

 

And yes, all paths of value have similar concepts but then there are the differences and these differences are what prevents total acceptance of all of them.

 

And then, there are Buddhist concepts that I totally disagree with and a couple of them would be "no mind", "no desire", and "neutrality to all things".

 

Okay, so that was three, not a couple.

[RongzomFan]

No mind is Eckhart Tolle, not Buddhism

[Simple_Jack]

"Neutrality to all things" is equivalent to ignorance in Buddhism.

[Marblehead]

Thanks guys.

 

I hope this is helping others.

[Simple_Jack]

Please say more.

 

Equanimity is the 4th of 4 brahmaviharas/immeasurables, which are wholesome mental states that can be used to cultivate the 4 form realm jhanas which are refined realms of experience. This doesn't uproot ignorance itself.

[BaguaKicksAss]

"Neutrality to all things" is equivalent to ignorance in Buddhism.

 

Well crap .

 

I find it much better overall when I stop being attached to outcomes or or one option over the other, especially emotionally attached to. I find that I get caught up in some things, and am working on getting past that.

 

Though definitely keeping my desire and passion for Bagua and my spiritual practice .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Compared to Buddhist sutras? LOL

 

Uh oh, haven't read those LOL

[BaguaKicksAss]

Many people/paths seem to talk about karma being something that comes later in life, or perhaps the next lifetime. I wonder (if karma even exists that is, I'm still doubtful, sorry lol) if it actually comes into being the instant you do the action that brings about the karma? What I mean is it all plays out at that very moment, the very same day. Just perhaps what our mind perceives as karmic "repercussions", and how it really plays out are two entirely different things? For example it is commonly thought that you do something nasty, you get punished for it, and that punishment people tend to think of as terrible physical things happening to them. I think maybe it's more of an energetic, emotional, or inner turmoil that comes about. This would at least explain why people who cultivate, meditate a LOT deeply, or practice magic are thought of (and notice this themselves) as having better luck than most.

[ThisLife]

Hiya Bagua,

 

Like yourself, I find this theory of karma to be extremely intriguing. When I first came across it thirty years ago, the impact of its apparent "Rightness" was so powerful that I remember feeling that up until then it felt if I'd been locked inside a thick, stone-walled room looking for a way out. Nothing I had been able to find until that moment had provided anything even close to offering a potential way out. But discovering the concept of karma felt like a curtain had suddenly been drawn back in this wall, revealing a window,... not a solid, unbreakable barrier to knowing.

 

There followed thirty years of seeking various Eastern paths, (primarily, and in the end 'only' Buddhism),... but in the beginning I experimented with any Eastern belief system as long as the idea of 'karma' was central to it.

 

However, through a series of unexpected and unwished-for events, for me a process of falling out of love with Buddhism began about eight years ago. In that process I came across several teachers that had a very strong effect on my life and who quite radically changed the things I now find myself believing in.

 

Following on with the questions that seem to be turning around in your mind as well, I'll enclose a short discussion of karma by one of these chaps

(Richard Sylvester), below. Perhaps it may resonate for you as well :

 

*

*

 

*

 

The laws of karma are a very attractive story. But this communication destroys all that.

 

The mind sometimes hates hearing this communication. One of the reasons that the mind can hate it so much is that the mind loves justice. So the mind wants to hear a story that says, “Ultimately, there will be justice.” Yet clearly there is very little justice in this ‘earthly realm’.

 

There are only two kinds of story about justice that will ultimately work for the mind. One of these is that eventually God will make everything OK because we will go to heaven but our accursed enemies will rot in hell. That’ll be justice ! Oh yes !

 

Of course the best thing about heaven is that it has a huge window in it through which we will be able to watch our enemies rotting in hell. In fact, without the window, it would not be heaven.

 

Alternatively, there is the story of karma, which tells us that there will be justice in a subsequent lifetime. This has the same effect of guaranteeing justice, because in our next life, or in the one after, our enemy will be in our power. Instead of him making our life a misery, we will be able to make his life a misery.

 

At this point the stories of both heaven and karma can become much more noble and sophisticated, because they can bring in our magnificent attempts to rise above the urge for primitive vengeance by developing compassion for our enemies. We can even attempt to become a bodhisattva. This has the additional advantage that we will also be able to beat ourself up when we inevitably fail.

 

It is natural for the mind to be attracted to these stories. The mind lives in a world of cause and effect. In a world of cause and effect there is good and bad, justice and injustice. The mind would like to put things right. That is quite a noble thing for the mind to want to do.

 

But liberation has nothing to do with the mind and nothing to do with cause and effect. That is why, when non-duality was seen within the Christian tradition and within some other traditions as well, there was so often an urge to kill the one who saw it. This is such an affront to everything that religion teaches. No wonder they tried to kill Meister Eckhart, for example.

 

*

Edited February 9, 2014 by ThisLife

[ThisLife]

*

 

Hi again, Bagua,

 

Assuming that you found something of interest in what Richard Sylvester had to say about karma, (since you clicked the 'Like' button),... I'll add a further of his elaborations on the subject, again taken from one of his talks. Like yourself, I find that the concept of karma seems to me to be almost of pivotal importance in my on-going attempts to make sense of this phenomenon of existence that we all share :

 

*

*

 

*

 

 

 

[Q] I would like to ask you whether the life of a person is already written in advance.

 

 

[A] No, the life of a person is not written in advance, because there is no person who has a life. As soon as we start speculating that our lives may be written in advance, we engage with a story which takes us away from presence, from the miracle that is 'this'. We might also notice that the idea that our life is written in advance is only one of many different possible stories. Why should we choose that story rather than any of the others?

 

When it is seen that there is no person who has a life, our fascination with stories about the future or the past tends to drop away and what is left is this ever-changing play of consciousness.

 

[Q] But I think that what we have to experience from birth to death is already written when we are born.

 

[A] That is a story which appeals to many people. There are other appealing stories, such as that we can create the reality that we desire through understanding and practising 'the laws of attraction', or that we should accumulate good karma and avoid accumulating bad karma.

 

But what I am pointing to is that there is no person who has a life, or who creates their own reality, or who accumulates or avoids karma. And there is no birth or death or time. All there is, is this,... whatever is apparently manifesting in Oneness. This present outpouring of unconditional love.

The mind lives in a world of time and of cause and effect, so it cannot help asking “Why?” It is its inescapable fate. The mind loves to entertain itself with questions about meaning and purpose and it creates ever-greater complexity in its answers so that it can silence its doubts. Its answers may be religious or spiritual or existential. They are immensely varied and colourful, and they often contradict one another. If one of them appeals to you then, by all means hold on to it. But meanwhile the joy of presence is likely to be missed and this moment become a shadow drained of energy and glimpsed only through a veil of speculation about meaning and the future.

 

You can have stories about meaning, purpose and endeavour,... or you can have presence. The simplicity of leaves rustling in the breeze. You cannot have both.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2014 by ThisLife

[BaguaKicksAss]

I find what you have written quite interesting, and even agree with some of it. However I don't feel karma is important to my life whatsoever actually. Read my thoughts in the first few pages of this thread to get a better idea . I just act how I act as for me it is the right way to go about things. Fuck karma . If others are all into that, cool for them, but just not my thing. I have felt it kick in a few times, but usually instantaneously and fortunately for the better sort of more like karma in motion sort of thing...

[Apech]

I find what you have written quite interesting, and even agree with some of it. However I don't feel karma is important to my life whatsoever actually. Read my thoughts in the first few pages of this thread to get a better idea . I just act how I act as for me it is the right way to go about things. Fuck karma . If others are all into that, cool for them, but just not my thing. I have felt it kick in a few times, but usually instantaneously and fortunately for the better sort of more like karma in motion sort of thing...

 

 

Fuck karma and it'll fuck you right back ... for sure.

[chegg]

.

.

Edited March 14, 2015 by chegg

[Songtsan]

There is no way I am going to read through this whole thread, so if I repeat already stated opinions in stating my own, so be it.

 

Karma is simply the law of action/reaction chains, nothing more. Too many people view it as if there is some supernatural judge that is designing your punishments in the next life or down the line in this one. In a way it is like that, but it really isn't. That judge is simply your own self. You reap what you sow - you are the reaper, the sower, the judge and the judged. and the group mind is your mind!

 

Here is how I am thinking it's like right now, subject to change in the next moment as ever:

 

You are your own judge and executioner. If you do something that you know/feel/believe is bad, you will suffer from it. If you do something out of innocence and learn a lesson, you will suffer, but not so bad. The right brain is the seat of the group-mind stuff....the left-brain makes calculated, unemotional decisions. People with anti-social personality can seemingly go around doing whatever they choose, and seemingly suffer nothing from it as far as feelings of remorse, etc.

 

These things will eventually come back at them though when they go through their process of integrity, which all beings must eventually face - this is the way. Karmic backlash is simply reactions to actions, which are basically just further actions - so it's a non-originated causal chain which extends back into non-beginning. In this sense no one is fully responsible for any action, which is why things do not arise, they only co-originate. The Awareness which experienced the action reactions chains in their causal manifestations will take the brunt of the emergence of the stored/hidden dross which lies as potential in the mind. Karma is of the mind and not of the seat of awareness. It is mind constructs which will eventually pass through the mirror of awareness as they are expressed. Therefore Karma is quite real and quite imaginary. What you think about it is false. What it really is is true. You can only experience Karma, but never know it.

 

The end summary is stop worrying about it. Start staying aware in the moment.

 

Maintain 360 degree awareness in the moment. Don't do! This means don't think as well, since thinking is doing. Allow nonaction action to be your guide. You watch, without acting, you will incur no more karmic bullshit. The karma will pass through your 360 degree mirror of awareness, like bad weather. You weather the storm in equanimity, and you are all set!

 

Very simple and needs not much more than to remember the way.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Songtsan

[BaguaKicksAss]

Also who is to say what are good and what are bad karmic actions?

 

I'd steal food to feed starving kids; who cares aboit karma .

 

I think people follow it blindly sometines with no thought into it....

 

Hey wait a minute chegg your god might be lessening my *good* karma too!!!!