Taoism & Confucianism - surely no way?

[yabyum24]

Many times I see the two lumped together - I guess because they both hail from the same place - but for an uninformed outsider like myself, I don't see any similarity.

 

In fact the two systems seem to be as far apart as it's possible to get.

 

Taoism = Ying & Yang, mystical/magical cool stuff, semen retention (for TTB dudes) and immortality.

 

Confucianism = ethics, conduct, morality and piety -all designed to prop up feudalism and lick the ruling elite's butt.

 

Okay, I simplify to make a point.

 

Am I right, or have I completely missed it?

[Marblehead]

Well, you didn't miss it but I think you left some things of importance out.

 

It is my understanding that for many Chinese, prior to the Western invasion of China, held to Taoist, Confucian, and Buddhist beliefs and concepts.

 

Taoism was practiced at home.

 

Buddhism was practiced within society.

 

Confucianism was practiced in official interaction.

 

My description above may be lacking in clarity and explanation but the point is that for many Chinese their belief system was an integration of all three. This was more common than just a single belief system.

[Starjumper]

Confucianism like a fundamentalist aspect of Taoism. Confucius was a brilliant scholar with a deep mental understanding of the Way but his heart wasn't open. King of like Owl in Tao of Pooh.

[soaring crane]

The spiritual side of confucianism is ancestor worship. It gets quite esoteric, probably because the Chinese are mystical people no matter what dogma you throw at them. It isn't only a set of strict Rules regulating social discourse.

[ChiDragon]

The distinctive differences are:
Confucian is intentional and Taoist is unintentional.

Wu Wei(無為) is unintentional.
You Wei(有為) is intentional.

[Stosh]

All I can say is,, that I did it,,, Mai Wei ,,

[yabyum24]

The spiritual side of confucianism is ancestor worship.

I've always wondered how you combine ancestor worship with a belief in rebirth.

[Brian]

I've always wondered how you combine ancestor worship with a belief in rebirth.

Heck! I've met LOTS of people who worship themselves, haven't you?

 

[ChiDragon]

I've always wondered how you combine ancestor worship with a belief in rebirth.

In Confucian, ancestor worship is a matter of remembrance and honor the ancestors and it has nothing to do rebirth. Rebirth is a belief in Buddhism only.

[yabyum24]

I understand that the two are not necessarily linked but many Chinese were Buddhist once upon a time (not sure if it's many nowadays).

 

So a Chinese confucian buddhist would pay respect at the shrine of his ancestors (in remembrance) whilst accepting that the ancestor is already reborn someplace?

 

Is that roughly right?

[ChiDragon]

For a Chinese Confucian Buddhist, if there is such an animal, it is roughly right.

[soaring crane]

It's not only about remembrance and respect.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Overall, I have the impression that no one posting here has anything but very superficial impressions about Confucianism which the are only too happy to share with us. Try these links to my posts on Confucian qigong and then you will have a better idea of what Confucianism is all about:

 

Confucian Qigong

 

Mencius Flood like Qi, Silent Siting and Zhong

 

The Microcsom/Macrocosm doctrine and the states of development from 'good man' to shen

 

Happy reading.

 

 

Edit: Added leading quote mark to good man' in last link.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Zhongyongdaoist

[NotVoid]

Actually Confucian ideas and customs have long since been a very strong influence on most Chinese people. In my experience Chinese people typically do not, or at least did not until very recent times anyway, see a big deal about mixing or using ideas from different sources, such as taoism, buddhism, confucian, etc. For example, many Chinese taoists likely followed or were at least influenced by various confucian customs and ideas as well, and likely the same for Chinese buddhists and christians and muslims, etc., just like all Chinese people. Some of the later era taoist sects were strongly influenced by confucian and/or buddhist practices and ideas. People in the west seem to like to try to put things in neat little boxes in regards to this sort of stuff, but the reality is often a lot different than people's preconceptions in the west. Also, most actual practicing taoists seem to place strong emphasis on things like morals and virtue, filial piety, showing respect for elders, helping those in need, etc. There are always exceptions to any rule, but in general confucian ideas and customs seem to have had a strong influence to most everyone in China.

Edited December 13, 2013 by NotVoid

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Actually Confucian ideas and customs have long since been a very strong influence on most Chinese people. In my experience Chinese people typically do not, or at least did not until very recent times anyway, see a big deal about mixing or using ideas from different sources, such as taoism, buddhism, confucian, etc. For example, many Chinese taoists likely followed or were at least influenced by various confucian customs and ideas as well, and likely the same for Chinese buddhists and christians and muslims, etc., just like all Chinese people. Some of the later era taoist sects were strongly influenced by confucian and/or buddhist practices and ideas. People in the west seem to like to try to put things in neat little boxes in regards to this sort of stuff, but the reality is often a lot different than people's preconceptions in the west. Also, most actual practicing taoists seem to place strong emphasis on things like morals and virtue, filial piety, showing respect for elders, helping those in need, etc. There are always exceptions to any rule, but in general confucian ideas and customs seem to have had a strong influence to most everyone in China.

I am in complete agreement with this, Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism were known as the Three Teachings and while there were certainly some partisans each each, the general view was that they were complementary and in the end lead to the same goal. As an example:

'...the wondrous light of (essential) nature which is symbolised by a circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen); the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless (wu chi), the Buddha perfect knowledge (yuan ming) and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality.' (Lu K'uan Yu, Taoist Yoga, p. 4)

in which the '...circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen)', jen is Cantonese for the Pinyin, rén (仁), the fundamental concept of the Confucian Dao.

[soaring crane]

well, I admit to having a superficial understanding, but enough to know that ancestor worship/veneration is at least as much a spiritual practice as anything else. The ancestors are there in spiritual form, in the afterlife, and they're generally not very happy with our modern world, afaik.

[Marblehead]

A Confucian could never be an Anarchist.

[dawei]

As the saying goes: "Confucian by day and Taoist by night".

 

You can choose to explain day or night but you have not fully explained day and night.

[Bearded Dragon]

Hah, mai wei indeed stosh.

 

Mai (3rd tone) = buy. It's modern society through and through.

[Stosh]

Ahh very cool coincidence! I went with the intuition thing .

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If the Taoism and Confucianism were teaching dance - Confucianism is the steps to the dance, so that it can be done with a partner, Taoism teaches you how to feel the dance. Some people will dance without rhythm, some people will dance wildly according to their rhythm and be oblivious to others. They can both lead to good dancing though, together or separately, imo..

[PLB]

Maybe one way to look at it is that one school knows how much work it takes to gain knowlege and understands the uncertainty involved with passing the result on to a new generation and another school insists that the thing to be learned is present and ready to be understood right now directly without paying dues or assigning themselves to past masters.

 

Two more or less equally true things being true at the same time while contradicting each other: What metaphysical structure could subtend such a thing?

[Stosh]

Irony

[ChiDragon]

No foundations.

[Marblehead]

Irony

My ironing is all done.