Taoism & Confucianism - surely no way?

[Stosh]

My ironing is all done.

Well, I still have my warped sense of humor.

[Marblehead]

Well, I still have my warped sense of humor.

No wonder you need ironing, you are all warped.

[ShifuC]

Many times I see the two lumped together - I guess because they both hail from the same place - but for an uninformed outsider like myself, I don't see any similarity.

 

In fact the two systems seem to be as far apart as it's possible to get.

 

Taoism = Ying & Yang, mystical/magical cool stuff, semen retention (for TTB dudes) and immortality.

 

Confucianism = ethics, conduct, morality and piety -all designed to prop up feudalism and lick the ruling elite's butt.

 

Okay, I simplify to make a point.

 

Am I right, or have I completely missed it?

You have compeltely missed it.

The concept of Te (De) is inherently related to Ming and Li. The reason for different words is they came from different regions and different origins, but the idea was basically all the same. Ethical behavior results in moral power. Mengzi meditated a lot, and Kongzi frequently referred to the Way (from his students' quotes). Remember, at that time there was no "Taoism" Tao and Wu-ji were separately derived concepts that really reflected the same observation through different peoples, that the Universe had a universal source. The Laozi school did not give Di (God) the credit for the unending power of it, while the Mozi school called the power Heaven (Tian). All of these are various degrees of separation of Yang Qi (from yin/yang school and medical philosophy). But the fact is that the real Tao that cannot be named, is at the heart of EVERY Chinese philosophy, and Buddhism was only accepted because it basically has the same idea in Dharma and Shunyata. The agreements between Chinese philosophy and Ayurveda are too numerous to discuss here. That lends credence to their scientific research, IMO. While the Chinese were coming up with these multi-facted parts that would later become Taoism, the yogis were doing the same thing. Where they differ is over-emphasized, IMO. But make no mistake, Kongzi WAS Taoist - by the standards of his day. The Zhou were obsessed with the "way" of Heaven in everything, and he was obsessed with the Zhou ancestors. I really suggest reading the Book of History, it is very enjoyable (more than the Spring and Autumn annals)

 

Well, you didn't miss it but I think you left some things of importance out.

 

It is my understanding that for many Chinese, prior to the Western invasion of China, held to Taoist, Confucian, and Buddhist beliefs and concepts.

 

Taoism was practiced at home.

 

Buddhism was practiced within society.

 

Confucianism was practiced in official interaction.

 

My description above may be lacking in clarity and explanation but the point is that for many Chinese their belief system was an integration of all three. This was more common than just a single belief system.

This has long been challenged. It is a neo-confucian throwback from the Victorian era. I recommend checking out some of the newer Sinology works on real Taoism. And read Taoist Master Zhuang. I had a similar conception as you did before this year and I really had my eyes oepened. Taoism was always more public than private, and that makes sense. Most peasants prior to 1970 could not read or have libraries of Taoist texts. They relied on rituals and festivals.

 

The spiritual side of confucianism is ancestor worship. It gets quite esoteric, probably because the Chinese are mystical people no matter what dogma you throw at them. It isn't only a set of strict Rules regulating social discourse.

How is it esoteric? Very simple idea really. They saw the next world as a reflection of our own. You need clothes, food, and money in it. Highly pragmatic, really. Too simple? Perhaps. But after all, that's all we can guess the Other World is like, since we have nothing else to go on. As for the gods and spirits that they use to commune, yeah it gets heavily diversified and regional, but it isn't per say esoteric so much as Shinto/animistic.

 

The distinctive differences are:

Confucian is intentional and Taoist is unintentional.

 

Wu Wei(無為) is unintentional.

You Wei(有為) is intentional.

you need striving and non-striving to reach the Tao, according to Liu I Ming. In my experience this is more accurate a take than the Zhuang-Lao-Lieh school's ideas. I think Kongzi's "failings" (he IS an immortal you know, so I can't really judge him) is that he never could let go at the right moment and let his striving revolve into non-striving. He fought too much for his ardent views, failing to see the relativity of life. He held to what was "right with Heaven" and failed to see his choices would affect not just his family and followers, but the country. He should have bent and used Expedient Means.

So many wise, sagely ministers fell victim to what was closest to them. Kongzi, Wuzi, Sun Bin... all of them were victims of court intrigue. I can't say I would do any better. But in life I have found that the luxury of ideals is a luxury. Winning for good is more honorably than losing on behalf of being "right."

Then again, in the end it worked out for him. It's too bad his school ended up being twisted into a hatred of Taoists. As someone said "closed-hearted" is the essence of the problem with the many sincere Confucianists.

 

I've always wondered how you combine ancestor worship with a belief in rebirth.

Well, glad you asked.

First of all, your avatar dies, that is the person who is an amalgamation of the 5 souls (Wu Xing spirits). Your gui is dishcarged right into the matrix of the Tao, and its data is accessible to anyone who had an type of quantum entanglement. However, like Jor-el, whatever you see/experience is just a shade of the original. Namely the part of the person that desires and lived "in the world"

Meanwhile the Hun/Ethereal Soul returns to the Void (Wu) and is "cleansed" (See Book of the Dead), and is then re-combined with the essences of new mother and father, and these 3 parts make a new Hun-Shen particle that is inserted into the fetus.

 

This was a crash course, but that about sums up my research from sino-tibetan-vedic-catholic-gnostic-shamanistic syncretism.

 

 

In Confucian, ancestor worship is a matter of remembrance and honor the ancestors and it has nothing to do rebirth. Rebirth is a belief in Buddhism only.

That is not accurate at all. There are dozens of Taoist texts which refer to the cycle of birth and death. True, most texts came after the importation of Buddhism, but I am not sure that there were NO cultures in China that didn't believe in reincarnation before 100AD. After all, it's pretty much part of the Wu Xing system. Things moving from no form into form and out of form again must by common sense move into form again.... we cannot know for sure what the peasantry believed... we know they believed in Heaven and Hell based on celebrations, but we do not know if they thought ghosts could not come back to life. What the literati and gentry believed was way more diverse than has been reported and after all remember before the Qin dynasty there were dozens of states and after the Han, there have remained still dozens of sub-cultures including Muslim and Jewish and many others. Point being it is very unlikely that Vedic ideas did not invade the southlands at least until Buddhism. I am more or less certain they did. Karma was probably not a new idea to the Chinese.

[yabyum24]

First of all, your avatar dies, that is the person who is an amalgamation of the 5 souls (Wu Xing spirits). Your gui is dishcarged right into the matrix of the Tao, and its data is accessible to anyone who had an type of quantum entanglement. However, like Jor-el, whatever you see/experience is just a shade of the original. Namely the part of the person that desires and lived "in the world"

Meanwhile the Hun/Ethereal Soul returns to the Void (Wu) and is "cleansed" (See Book of the Dead), and is then re-combined with the essences of new mother and father, and these 3 parts make a new Hun-Shen particle that is inserted into the fetus.

 

This was a crash course, but that about sums up my research from sino-tibetan-vedic-catholic-gnostic-shamanistic syncretism.

Awesome... so, a person is comprised of 5 souls and some other stuff that all splits up at death? This is all new to me.

 

So a ghost/ancestor spirit is just the discarded bits that hang around due to desire but the main essence moves on to reform a new being?

 

So is the self, the 5 souls or the 'Hun'? Both or neither?

 

Sorry so many questions but this totally new territory.

[Stosh]

[] What is "Moral power' ? Yabyum

Edited December 27, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

This has long been challenged. It is a neo-confucian throwback from the Victorian era. I recommend checking out some of the newer Sinology works on real Taoism. And read Taoist Master Zhuang. I had a similar conception as you did before this year and I really had my eyes oepened. Taoism was always more public than private, and that makes sense. Most peasants prior to 1970 could not read or have libraries of Taoist texts. They relied on rituals and festivals.

Excellent point. What I stated was based on knowledge gained in the 1970s. I am sure more accurate knowledge has come available since that time regarding the culture of the Chinese.

 

But I still like to think of the Chinese as being a poly-religion people. (Whatever gets you through your life.)

[yabyum24]

[] What is "Moral power' ? Yabyum

Dunno Stosh. Is your question based on something I wrote?

[Stosh]

Dunno Stosh. Is your question based on something I wrote?

Oops , sorry, that was ShifuC who mentioned it , and I saw you in the quote.

[ShifuC]

[] What is "Moral power' ? Yabyum

Hard to say what it is. I mean De is almost as elusive as Tao. But we see it in comics all the time. We want the 'good guy' to win. We are, like flies, attracted to the light side. We make stories about jedi and about dark jedi overcoming sith. Anyone here hate it how Yoda lost to Palpatine? Or want to really see Superman or Goku fail? Not really, bc you all are seekers, northward facing folks. And that means builders of Te.

 

Doing good deeds isn't merely karmic, wise, and helpful, it is good training. The lower the ego goes, the more the line btw self and other vanishes and the more one wishes to serve. Without Te though, one's influence will not go far. Read the Neiyeh, it is very straight forward. And Mengzi too.

 

Whatever Te or li are, they are pretty important in our outer life.

 

Excellent point. What I stated was based on knowledge gained in the 1970s. I am sure more accurate knowledge has come available since that time regarding the culture of the Chinese.

 

But I still like to think of the Chinese as being a poly-religion people. (Whatever gets you through your life.)

Agree. They are very diverse. But it seems the source was very similar despitethe outflow. The dna is dna, but sometimes made a tree and sometimes a flower and sometimes a fish. We were all once flawless gorilla-like empty taobums. Whatever happened to us!? :-)

 

Awesome... so, a person is comprised of 5 souls and some other stuff that all splits up at death? This is all new to me.

 

So a ghost/ancestor spirit is just the discarded bits that hang around due to desire but the main essence moves on to reform a new being?

 

So is the self, the 5 souls or the 'Hun'? Both or neither?

 

Sorry so many questions but this totally new territory.

That is what it seems from research. Hun, po, shen, yi, and zhi... the combinations of which make dosha-psyches roughly 3 levels. Conscious-intellectual-rational mind, subconscious, and unconscious. The interaction of yang soul or hun with shen and yin soul or po makes for a multifaceted self that is often at odds. We know what is good for us but are wierdly self-destructive, for example.

 

At any rate, the krishnans think the hun is an atom of soul. The taoists call it a black pearl. Or the gold pill. I guess depending on inward or outward direction of flow in the wu-toroid. Inward makes empty black, outward a golden flower-light. Science calls it vacuum energy.

 

Meanwhile, gui still seem to hang around, so it must be that part lives on, and part dies but merges with the 'ether'. Hard to know much more concretely anything else. Like i say i am finding synchresis for about 5 or 6 traditional paradigms. Difficult, but not impossible math.

[Marblehead]

Agree. They are very diverse. But it seems the source was very similar despitethe outflow. The dna is dna, but sometimes made a tree and sometimes a flower and sometimes a fish. We were all once flawless gorilla-like empty taobums. Whatever happened to us!? :-)

Hehehe. Funny but there is truth in that last sentence and question.

[ShifuC]

The Mesopotamians seemed to think so, too. :-) Wetico is a serious disease in native thought.

 

Still, don't we enjoy all the upgraded hardware so we can vivisect and disect the Tao?

 

It may be that we were better off half and half 4000-6000 years ago... or it may be we always ancestor-venerate. Hard to know such big pictures. But surely from an individual perspective the original face and mind of tao are more poignant than ever in these twitter, red bull, facebook, miley cyrus days :-)

 

Also, a little Te seems to go a lot farther than in the old days since we have so little connx in terms of a daily routine. I mean look at our politics, we have so few heroes, anyone doing anything positive is a sage practically!! So maybe entropy is not all bad :-) Opportunity for all us seekers. I mean at no time prior to 1970 was taoism a well paid position, now it is the subject of multi billion dollar -star wars- industry! We pay the price for seeking and separation... but also it is all so amazing and present and available as never before. Would Zhuangzi approve? Maybe not, but i like to think he is kicking it in his new form and making the best of the new digs.

 

Certainly we shouldn't open Pandora's box so much.... but when we do the Tao just keeps producing... how marvelous and fortunate! How painful, too, of course. My God the laws and punishments are relentless, but with the Tao you mostly avoid the ghastly samsaric crap, then you are left with getting to watch an ever blossoming lotus. The science these days.... nom nom... and the movie graphics? Eye candy!!

 

Oh what bizarrity! What ineffible ironawesomeness! The yin of samsaric life as it increases so doth the yang of it. Potent delusion powers passions which enhance the union.

 

Then you leave the cycle and the center is all the more worthwhile. The desert island isn't 'cast away'... it is Sanctuary!

[Stosh]

Chuang would have thought that potentially what we have is a Utopia with sad people filling it.

IMO

[Marblehead]

The desert island isn't 'cast away'... it is Sanctuary!

I like that enough to repeat it.

[ShifuC]

Chuang would have thought that potentially what we have is a Utopia with sad people filling it. IMO

 

Good point. A statement on people (who don't really seem in control enough to be judged IMO), or on utopias? In my experience, easiness makes people fat, lazy, stupid, and weak. But I am a martial artist so that might be an unfair judgment.

 

I think old people deserve ease, though.

[Marblehead]

 

I think old people deserve ease, though.

No, old people gotta work too else they just wither away and die. There will be ample time for ease after we die.

[Stosh]

Pie Jesu dominae , donna e ist requiem sempirvirens

or something like that .

Edited December 29, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Pie Jesu dominae , donna e ist requiem sempirvirens

or something like that .

Do you know how to say that in English?

[Stosh]

Please sweet lord Jesus grant them peace everlasting. That's close to the only Latin I remember but I like the wording.. in latin. We talked about this phrase a while back you and I.

it just popped to mind again striking me funny as they were chanting it in Monty Python and the holy grail .

when writing grail just now this phone changed the spelling to trail. I dont know how to turn that feature off..which is vexing. I'm under the perhaps incorrect assumption that its a commonly understood phrase like E pluribus Unum.

And if not , that would render it generally unfunny.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Stosh

[Geneh]

I have heard that Confucian thought guides us in society until we retire; Taoism guides us after that. Of course this is a gross simplification.

[Stosh]

But ,, I'm not retired yet !

Oh, and this is a very loose connection to the same scene where he says he isn't dead yet. Again , not particularly funny but I'm easily amused sometimes.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

a commonly understood

Well, I am uncommonly misunderstood so that puts me totally out of the ball park.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Marblehead

[Stosh]

I've played there too..

[woodcarver]

I was pondering this while sitting at a bar last night. How would a Daoist and Confucianist behave? (Please forget it was a Monday night)

 

My thoughts:

A Daoist would be humble and not draw too much attention to themself, observing what the people are doing. They are like the buffer of society and would be polite and respectful to all.

 

A Confucianist would be polite and respectful because he is a gentleman, surely not a fool. He sets an example to others around him while not being extravagant.

 

On the outside, the same. The three teachings are one.