The Tao of Pooh

[Lozen]

From the intro:

 

...some of us were discussing the Great Masters of Wisdom, and someone was saying how all of them came from the East, and I was saying that some of them didn't, but he was going on and on, just like this sentence, not paying any attention, when I decided to read a quotation of Wisdom from the West, to prove that there was more to the world than one half, and I read:

 

"When you wake up in the morning, Pooh," said Piglet at last, "what's the first thing you say to yourself?"

 

"What's for breakfast?" said Pooh. "What do you say, Piglet"

 

"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?" said Piglet.

 

Pooh nodded thoughtfully.

 

"It's the same thing," he said.

 

"What's that?" the Unbeliever asked.

 

"Wisdom from a Western Taoist," I said

 

"It sounds like something from Winnie-the-Pooh," he said.

 

"It is," I said.

 

"That's not about Taoism," he said.

 

"Oh, yes it is," I said.

 

"No, it's not," he said.

 

"What do you think it's about?" I said.

 

"It's about this dumpy little bear that wanders around asking silly questions, making up songs, and going through all kinds of adventures, without ever accumulating any amount of intellectual knowledge or losing his simpleminded sort of happiness. That's what it's about," he said.

 

"Same thing," I said.

[Yen Hui]

Do you really believe the great Taoist sages never acquired any amount of intellectual knowledge?

[Leidee]

How can you surmise any beliefs Lozen does or does not hold simply because she posted something that caught her eye for an, as yet, unexplained reason?

 

You assume much.

 

L

[Yen Hui]

How can you surmise any beliefs Lozen does or does not hold simply because she posted something that

caught her eye for an, as yet, unexplained reason?

 

You assume much.

 

L

 

I assumed nothing. The text she posted implies clearly that the great Taoist sages never acquired any amount

of intellectual knowledge? I merely asked her if she believed that. Where's the assumption in that? Maybe she

posted it to see if we believed that as well. Well, perhaps it might be helpful to start first by defining what the

author actually means by "intellectual knowledge" rather than merely assume everyone has the same idea of

what that means. The I Ching says the ancient sages were able to compose the I Ching because they were of,

or had attained cosmic intelligence. Can one acquire cosmic intelligence, without any "intellectual" knowledge?

[fatherpaul]

how about the zen cowboy?

"I eat when I'm hungry I drink when I'm dry,

sleep when I'm sleepy under the sky"

 

or in Zen

" eat when hungry, drink when thirsty, above all be ordinary and nothing special"

 

there are as many "sages" of the west as of the east.

"the bhuddas are as plentiful as the grains of sand on the Ganges"

 

it seems simple to me, there is no corner on the market.

[zenbrook]

Can one acquire cosmic intelligence, without any "intellectual" knowledge?

 

 

If I may be so bold, or perhaps foolish, as to put in my two-penneth... could it be that the question in some way begs itself?

 

Is it that cosmic intelligence, knowingness, is something that's already here, with us, in fact so much here that we more often than not fail to see it at all? Our understanding of it, should we ever be so fortunate, less an acquisition, perhaps, and more a gentle yet penetrating acknowledgment.

 

Whereas intellectual knowledge - knowledge of... is something we do create and therefore acquire? For many of us the latter precedes the former (and is in fact a prerequisite for knowing in its deepest sense), but this surely does not have to be the case.

 

'In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.' Perhaps we are talking about two different things - modes of knowledge each with it's own remit but ultimately both returning to the same source? The question then being not whether one by necessity precedes the other, but rather at what level, if at all, the two interrelate?

 

Is it possible to 'know' the Tao so well intellectually that true knowledge is missed? I think so, yes: the 'great pretense' as Lao Tsu would have it. So perhaps a little more waiting and a little less learning?

 

I just don't know. But I can't wait to find out.

 

Peace,

ZenB

[Lozen]

I don't know that intellectual knowledge leads to happiness.

[Lozen]

the uncarved block

[beancurdturtle]

I don't know that intellectual knowledge leads to happiness.

it doesn't.

yet a good pooh can.

 

[Trunk]

the uncarved block

Original Integrity

[fatherpaul]

Original Integrity

the primal unity

[Yen Hui]

I don't know that intellectual knowledge leads to happiness.

 

Well, I do know it does not necessarily lead to unhappiness either. But for me to explain myself would require

venturing quite deeply, or extensively into the teachings of the I Ching, (as expounded in the Wilhelm/Baynes

version,) as well as other ancient Taoist classics. And I'm a little reluctant to do that, to be honest, for several

reasons, not least of which is the teaching or warning of Hexagram 36 ( LINK ), given in the following terms:-

 

"In a time of darkness it is essential to be cautious and reserved. One should not needlessly awaken

overwhelming enmity by inconsiderate behavior. In such times one ought not to fall in with the practices of

others; neither should one drag them censoriously into the light. In social intercourse one

should not try to be all-knowing. One should let many things pass, without being duped."

 

Based upon the above advice, the right thing for me to do in this situation is to just let the whole matter slide

and go with the flow. Should I or should'nt I? To be perfectly honest about, there are more than a few

Taobums here upon whom such an exercise would be a complete waste of time. There is no need to name

names. Anyone who's been around these forums for any length of time will have some idea of who they are,

and if they don't yet, they will soon. But for the sake of the few who are not entirely closed-minded, I will

make a start and decide later whether or not to continue the exercise. So, for starters, I will quote two

passages from the Huainan Tzu, a Taoist Classic:-

 

01 - "If you want to abandon learning to follow nature, this is like leaving the boat and trying to walk over

the water. When a fine sword first comes out of the mold, it cannot cut or pierce until it is sharpened. When a

fine mirror first comes out of the mold, it cannot reflect clearly until it is ground and polished. Learning is also

a way to sharpen and polish people. Those who saying learning is useless are mistaken in their argument."

( Taoist Classics, Volume 1, p. 398 )

 

02 - "Those who rely on intelligence without the Way will surely be endangered; those who employ talent

unscientifically will surely be frustrated." (Taoist Classics, Volume 1, p. 376)

 

This is essentially the viewpoint expounded throughout the pages of Wilhelm's version of the I Ching, and it is

that which I hope to set forth, in some detail, to the best of my limited ability. This is not an easy task,

admittedly, so please be patient. In the above two quotes, the human intellect is described as being roughly

analogous to both a boat, a sword, and a mirror. Trying to follow nature without using the intellect is said, in

the first instance, to be like trying to walk on water. While a few may be able to walk on water, the masses

cannot.

 

In the second instance, it is likened to trying to cut through something with a sword that has no cutting edge to

it. In other words, to try and follow nature with a dull intellect is a completely useless endeavour. We have an

intellect, and therefore to attain true completeness, or complete realization of human nature, requires

harmonizing our intellect with the Way of Nature; but to do this requires penetration, and penetration requires

a "sharp" intellect.

 

In the third instance, intellect is likened unto a mirror that requires polishing before it can accurately reflect the

mysteries of the Tao. The operative word here, of course, is "reflect". A reflection is still not It, so in this sense

we can say that "intellectual knowledge" is not "reality", but merely a "reflection" of reality. Nontheless, it is

still important for us to polish our mirror. In all of this we can see that the purpose of intellect is to learn how

to follow the Great Way.

 

So the role of intellect, then, is to "follow", assist, and complete something higher than itself. This something is

the human spirit. This is clearly implied in Hexagram Two of Wilhelm's I Ching, which we will examine

momentarily. This is also the lesson of the second quote above: "Those who rely on intelligence without the

Way will surely be endangered." "Without the Way" means without our spirit mind, or intuitive mind.

However, lest we think this means depending on natural instinct(s) or talent(s) alone, without intelligence,

Huainan Tzu continues by saying that "those who employ talent," that is, nature, "unscientifically", or

unintelligently, "will surely be frustrated." So we see, then, that the objective here is to harmonize both

intuition and intellect in a properly balanced relationship.

 

Thus, the expression "depending on intelligence without the Way," implies the necessity of harmonizing

intelligence with the Tao, or training the intellect to look to intuition, or the spirit mind, for cosmic guidance.

According to the teaching of Hexagram 2, the purpose of intellect is to complete intuition, and thus to assist it

in the work of creation, as outlined in Hexagram 1. This means returning intellect to the spirit mind, and

training it to depend or rely upon the Tao. This relationship between human intelligence and the Way is clearly

expressed in the following terms of Hexagram 30 ( LINK ):-

 

"What is dark clings to what is light and so enhances the brightness of the latter. A luminous thing

giving out light must have within itself something that perseveres; otherwise it will in time burn itself out.

Everything that gives light is dependent on something to which it clings, in order that it may continue to shine.

 

"Thus the sun and moon cling to heaven, and grain, grass, and trees cling to the earth. So too the

twofold clarity of the dedicated man clings to what is right and thereby can shape the world. Human life on

earth is conditioned and unfree, and when man recognizes this limitation and makes himself dependent upon

the harmonious and beneficent forces of the cosmos, he achieves success. The cow is the symbol of extreme

docility. By cultivating in himself an attitude of compliance and voluntary dependence, man acquires clarity

without sharpness and finds his place in the world." [End of Quote]

 

According to the above teaching, then, that which is dark completes that which is light by clinging to it and thus

enhancing the brightness of the latter. Whilhelm says that Hexagram 29 ( LINK ) "represents the heart, the soul

locked up within the body, the principle of light (that is, reason) inclosed in the dark;" and that Hexagram 30

( LINK ) "stands for nature in its radiance." This is Wilhelm's precise wording. In the first instance of Hex 29,

human reason is described as the principle of light, imprisoned within the physical body. Thus Hexagram 30

represents the natural radiance of human reason, realized by its clinging to the primal spirit mind and "the

harmonious and beneficent forces of the cosmos."

 

Please note the above reference to the twofold clarity of the human being. This is in reference to the human

duality of spirit and reason. While our spirit mind is a microcosm of the sun, reason is a microcosm of the

moon. As the nature of the moon is to cling to the sun for its light, so to is it the original nature of human

intellect to cling to the human spirit for its pure light; and in so doing, it completes the spirit mind just as the

moon completes and enhances the sun by reflecting its light during the night. This natural radiance of human

reason is again the subject of Hexagram 35 ( LINK ) where it is described in terms of our "native clarity":-

 

THE IMAGE

 

The sun rises over the earth:

The image of PROGRESS.

Thus the superior man himself

Brightens his bright virtue.

 

"The light of the sun rises over the earth is by nature clear. The higher the sun rises, the more it emerges

from the dark mists, spreading the pristine purity of its rays over an ever widening area. The real nature

of man is likewise originally good, but it becomes clouded by contact with earthly things and therefore

needs purification before it can shine forth in its native clarity." [End of Quote]

 

This native clarity is referring to the original pure light of reason as intimated in Hexagram 29, and its natural

radiance as intimated in Hexagram 30. In the above words, the power of human reason is likened unto "the

light of the sun" rising "over the earth" which "is by nature clear." But the original clarity or purity of natural

reason is obscured by its clinging to the earth, that is to say, the world of the senses, rather than to the spirit

mind and "the harmonious and beneficent forces of the cosmos," as described above in Hexagram 30. Thus the

purification of reason or intellect is required before it can once again shine forth in its original radiance or

natural brightness. This subject of purification is again broached in Hexagram 43 ( LINK ) in the following terms:-

 

"Even a single passion still lurking in the heart has power to obscure reason. Passion and reason cannot exist side

by side--therefore fight without quarter is necessary if the good is to prevail.

 

"In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however, definite rules that must not be disregarded, if

it is to succeed. First, resolution must be based on a union of strength and friendliness. Second, a compromise

with evil is not possible; evil must under all circumstances be openly discredited. Nor must our own passions

and shortcomings be glossed over. Third, the struggle must not be carried on directly by force. If evil is

branded, it thinks of weapons, and if we do it the favor of fighting against it blow for blow, we lose in the end

because thus we ourselves get entangled in hatred and passion. Therefore it is important to begin at home, to

be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the

sharp edges of the weapons of evil becomes dulled. For the same reasons we should not combat our own

faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them, they continue victorious. Finally, the best way to fight evil is to

make energetic progress in the good." [End of Quote]

 

Now, the above passage is very informative, when carefully examined. It clearly states that the originally pure

light of reason is obscured by unruly passions. Thus the purification of reason requires cleansing the heart of

all unruly passions. Furthermore, we can see from the above that human reason becomes evil or deviant when

it follows these unruly passions, and refuses to return to the spirit mind, and voluntarily rely upon the Tao, or

to follow "the harmonious and beneficent forces of the cosmos," as described in Hexagram 30. This is clearly

intimated in Hexagram 2 ( LINK ), which we will now turn our attention to:

 

"This hexagram is made up of broken lines only. The broken lines represents the dark, yielding, receptive primal

power of yin. The attribute of the hexagram is devotion; its image is the earth. It is the perfect complement of THE

CREATIVE--the complement, not the opposite, for the Receptive does not combat the Creative but completes it.

It represents nature in contrast to spirit, earth in contrast to heaven, space as against time, the female-maternal

as against the male-paternal. However, as applied to human affairs, the principle of this complementary relationship

is found not only in the relation between man and woman, but also in that between prince and minister and

between father and son. Indeed, even in the individual this duality appears in the coexistence of the spiritual world

and the world of the senses."

 

Before I comment on the above, I want to quote a passage from Wilhelm's First Lecture on the I Ching which

helps to further clarify the above passage from Hexagram 2:-

 

"In discussing the opposites recorded in THE BOOK OF CHANGES, we must first of all understand that they are wholly

abstract. To be sure, individual images contain symbols, but behind each image we perceive and endless mirroring

of refelctions. I want to give only one example for such an image: THE YIN SYMBOL. Yin may be the wife, but can also

be the son; it can be the minister; and, under certain circumstances, it can be EMOTIONAL ELEMENTS AS OPPOSED

TO INTELLECTUALITY. However, yin may also be the vegetative nature of our being, the anima as opposed to the

animus. Inversely, it may be the masculine aspect in the woman, the aspect every woman contains within herself as

a derivative. In short, it is always that element which is not primary, but somehow derived. Opposites are

formed in this way." ( WILHELM'S LECTURES ON THE I CHING , pp. 5-6 )

 

It is very important to keep the above hermeneutic in mind when studying the various relationships set forth

for us throughout all the Hexagrams; which are best studied themselves in pairs, which pattern of observation

is already typified on the relationship(s) between Hexagrams 1 and 2, or Hexagrams 29 and 30.

 

At any rate, according to the above passage from Hexagram 2, mankind is a duality of heaven and earth, or

spirit and nature. Thus, we are meant to live in both "the spiritual world and the world of the senses." Earth is

meant to complete heaven, not oppose or contend against it; similarly, nature (that is to say, reason and the

senses) is meant to complete the human spirit. When reason turns away from following the spirit mind, and

tries to lead the spirit mind, or let itself be controlled and led around by the body of the senses, which cling to

the outward physical world, then it becomes productive of evil. This is clearly implied or stated in the second

paragraph of Hexagram 2, and under Line 6 as well:-

 

HEX. 2 - SECOND PARAGRAPH:-

 

"But strictly speaking there is no real dualism here, because there is a clearly defined hierarchic relationship

between the two principles. In itself of course the Receptive is just as important as the Creative, but the attribute

of devotion defines the place occupied by this primal power in relation to the Creative. For the Receptive must be

activated and led by the Creative; then it is productive of good. Only when it abandons this position and tries to

stand as an equal side by side with the Creative, does it become evil. The result then is opposition to and struggle

against the Creative, which is productive of evil to both."

 

LINE SIX:-

Dragons fight in the meadow.

Their blood is black and yellow.

 

"In the top place the dark element should yield to the light. If it attempts to maintain a position to which it is

not entitled and to rule instead of serving, it draws down upon itself the anger of the strong. A struggle ensues

in which it is overthrown, with injury, however, to both sides. The dragon, symbol of heaven, comes to fight

the false dragon that symbolizes the inflation of the earth principle. Midnight blue is the color of heaven; yellow

is the color of earth. Therefore, when black and yellow blood flow, it is a sign that in this unnatural contest both

primal powers suffer injury." [End of Quote]

 

The above words of Line 6 sould be interpreted in light of that which is expressed in the second paragraph of

this Hexagram. The false dragon represents the inflated natural reason which struggles against the Creative

element in man, that is to say, his spirit mind. Before we can return to our original state of purity and oneness,

we must first cultivate this original duality of spirit and nature, or intuition and reason. But please observe what

Wilhelm says about this duality: "Strictly speaking there is no real dualism here, because there is a clearly defined

hierarchic relationship between the two principles. In itself of course the Receptive is just as important as the Creative,

but the attribute of devotion defines the place occupied by this primal power in relation to the Creative."

 

According to Wilhelm, then, or what we have here before us in Hexagram 2, the Creative power within man,

that is, his spirit mind, is the primal power, and intellect is the derivative power; and the proper place of the

human intellect is one of devotion to the primal spirit mind. To openly crucify the intellect, then, as opposed to

subduing and returning it to its proper place within the Great Harmony of the created order, does just as much

violence to the spirit mind, which it was meant to assist and complete, as to allow it to be enslaved to unruly

passions and the external forces of the physical world of the senses!

 

This process of retraining the natural reason or mind of man, so as to return it to its natural order of devotion

and service to the primal spirit mind, is again broached in Hexagram 3 ( LINK ), where we read the following

words: "In order to find one's place in the infinity of being, one must be able both to separate and to unite." In order

to restore the natural order, we must first learn to separate our heavenly and earthly powers, which is to say,

distinguish between the primal spirit and derivative power of reason or intellect. Only after this separation is

successfully made can we begin to perceive the correct method of re-uniting them, or restoring or the natural

order of the Great Harmony internally; which Wilhelm defines as returning to the center.

 

As stated several times in the past, The Great Treatise of the I Ching, refers to this process as correctly

centering both the intellect and will, to produce a state of emotiional harmony or clarity. This means returning

them to their correct place, according to the natural order of things, as set forth in Hexagrams 1 and 2. I have

posted that passage from 'The Treatise' several times in the past, so won't bother to quote it here again. But if

you wish to read it for yourself, you can find it on the "garbage heap" of Cameron's recent "Free Will" thread.

In Wilhelm's First Lecture on the I Ching, this practice of centering is referred to in terms of "effecting central

harmony"; which is described in Hexagram 64 ( LINK ) as learning how to handle external forces properly

by arriving "at the correct standpoint ourselves."

 

THE IMAGE

 

Fire over water:

The image of the condition before transition.

Thus the superior man is careful

In the differentiation of things,

So that each finds its place.

 

"When fire, which by nature flames upward, is above, and water, which flows downward, is below, their effects

take opposite directions and remain unrelated. If we wish to achieve an effect, we must first investigate the

nature of the forces in question and ascertain their proper place. If we can bring these forces to bear in the

right place, they will have the desired effect and completion will be achieved. But in order to handle external

forces properly, we must above all arrive at the correct standpoint ourselves, for only from this vantage

(point) can we work correctly." [End of Quote]

 

Italics and underlining are all my doing, but please note especially the underlined words. Arriving at the correct

standpoint means effecting central harmony, as I have already said. But please observe carefully that the

Hexagram clearly says it is only when the center has been effectively attained, that intellect and will are able

to "work correctly!" This theme of finding "the correct standpoint", that is, our true spiritual center, is further

explored in Hexagram 20, but I will here forego any discussion of that until I see how the Bums react to the

above. Perhaps I have merely added to the already massive garbage heap!

[freeform]

I assumed nothing. The text she posted implies clearly that the great Taoist sages never acquired any amount

of intellectual knowledge? I merely asked her if she believed that. Where's the assumption in that? Maybe she

posted it to see if we believed that as well.

 

if we're talking about 'great taoist sages' (not 100% sure what that means) then I would agree with Lozen.

 

Well, perhaps it might be helpful to start first by defining what the

author actually means by "intellectual knowledge" rather than merely assume everyone has the same idea of

what that means. The I Ching says the ancient sages were able to compose the I Ching because they were of, or had attained cosmic intelligence. Can one acquire cosmic intelligence, without any "intellectual" knowledge?

 

I think it's a good idea to define the meaning of "intellectual knowledge"... for me it's certainly not the same as "cosmic intelligence" - although, as you've noticed, Yen, they do share the same word. In fact I think "intellectual knowledge" and "cosmic intelligence" are polar opposites. Just like 'intuition' is opposite to 'logic'.

 

I feel that "intellectual knowledge" has to do with the outside and "cosmic intelligence" has to do with the inside.

 

I also feel that the sages who wrote the I Ching would work hard to drop all "intellectual knowledge" so as to uncover "cosmic intelligence" which is always there and doesn't need to be learnt or accumulated from the outside.

 

Actually that's a lie - I think that the ancient sages had very different constitutions to us - they certainly weren't so involved with this intellectual knowledge as we are and they had far easier access to the "cosmic intelligence" because their mind hadn't 'evolved' to the point that ours has. So in fact it's far more important for us to lose our "intellectual knowledge" than it was for them.

 

Yen, you seem to read a lot - could be interesting to stop for two weeks and see what happens, maybe you'll see what zenbrook and I mean? I suspect you're an enneagram type 5? I have a lot of type 5 friends - all very, very intelligent when it comes to knowledge, but very vulnerable when it comes to feelings... Your dreams of flying resonate with this.

[Lozen]

EACH NOTE

 

Advice doesn't help lovers!

They are not the kind of mountain stream

you can build a dam across.

 

An intellectual doesn't know

what the drunk is feeling!

 

Don't try to figure

what those lost inside love

will do next!

 

Someone in charge would give up all his power,

if he caught one whiff of the wine-musk

from the room where the lovers are doing who-knows-what!

 

One of them tries to dig a hole through a mountain.

One flees from academic honors.

One laughs at famous mustaches!

 

Life freezes if it doesn't get a taste

of this almond cake.

The stars come up spinning every night, bewildered in love.

They'd grow tired

with that revolving, if they weren't.

They'd say,

"How long do we have to do this!"

 

God picks up the reed-flute world and blows.

Each note is a need coming through one of us,

a passion, a longing-pain.

Remember the lips

where the wind-breath originated,

and let your note be clear.

Don't try to end it.

Be your note.

I'll show you how it's enough.

 

Go up on the roof at night

in this city of the soul.

 

Let everyone climb on their roofs

and sing their notes!

 

Sing loud!

 

Rumi

[beancurdturtle]

But for me to explain myself would require venturing quite deeply, or extensively into the teachings of the I Ching,

I read that, I think it was in 1987. It was the same year in which I read The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine. Great stuff to gain a different perspective on the engines running our physical universe. The concepts hang with me - but unfortunately I've forgotten a great deal of the minutia over 20 years.

 

I feel that "intellectual knowledge" has to do with the outside and "cosmic intelligence" has to do with the inside.

Personally I've graduated to "comic intelligence." Or so I delude myself.

 

Ok, I'm just being silly. No disrespect intended. Just one of my odd habits.

 

Carry on!

[Yen Hui]

[Yen Hui]

Edited June 26, 2007 by Yen Hui

[beancurdturtle]

What I have tried to point out above is that Taoist practice is about becoming a "whole" person, that is to

say, complete in every sense of the word. Now, if the power of intellect is part of our human nature, then how does crucifying it and putting it to death make us "complete" people?

Well put.

[Lozen]

Are you saying that Pooh was not a complete person?

[beancurdturtle]

Are you saying that Pooh was not a complete person?

Well put.

[lino]

In William Bodri's "How to meditate" ebook, he quotes Confucius as saying that "right knowing" is one of the outcomes of meditation.

 

off topic:

I receive e-mail from a neurofeedback yahoo group (braintrainer). I saw on there that slipping into theta is how the brain "defrags".

[freeform]

Yen, I suspect my reply will not be of much value to you, since I'm not going to be quoting canonical texts. I dont read much of them any longer.

 

It's also quite hard to make factual sounding statements from something that was written in a different culture in a different time with a completely different language... The thing is interpretation is quite hard - these are not scientific documents, and there aren't clearly defined terms.

 

However, I doubt very much that the kind of logic/intelligence that is used in the modern day was used then to come up with the I Ching - it is beyond linear intelligence - even the most developed modern intelligence - Billions of man hours from the most intelligent men and women of the world have been spent on studying the universe and now we have quantum physics approaching the breadth of the I Ching.

 

The kind of intelligence these sages used was beyond 'logic' - it was beyond simple mental processes - it's the kind of intelligence that you can feel and taste with - the 'true knowing' that appears when the mind is silent, the heart is connected and the body grounded. The knowledge of the I ching wasn't developed from studying turtle shells - a trutle shell may have immediately inspired such knowledge, but can you immagine a sage thinking - well we've got these seasons, and this water and these mountains yeah - so it's pretty similar to this turtle shell right?

 

Cosmic Intelligence happens in a moment - there is no deduction, no mental thought to develop it...

 

Saying all this, I do believe that it takes this linear, logical type of intelligence to translate a glimpse of 'true knowing' into something that can be used and understood by someone who isn't prepared to cultivate the level of stillness and completeness that it takes to have this knowledge experientially.

 

ofcourse this is my own interpretation and my oppinion

[zenbrook]

Yen, I suspect my reply will not be of much value to you

Whether or not Yen finds it so... Well said, freeform! Spot on!

 

Peace,

ZenB

[Ian]

What I have tried to point out above is that Taoist practice is about becoming a "whole" person, that is to

say, complete in every sense of the word. Now, if the power of intellect is part of our human nature, then

how does crucifying it and putting it to death make us "complete" people? That's the real crux of the issue,

in my eyes. The objective is not to destroy intellect, but to cleanse, heal, and restore it's right relationship

with the primal spirit mind. This is called the Great Harmony of the Tao. However, it should be fully realized

that an intellect which is under the reign or government of the spirit mind does not function like the fallen

intellect used to. It is "reigned in", but still used in a very specified and highly controlled manner.

 

The trouble is that ALL the decisions about what needs to be done with the intellect are taken by the polluted, passion-riddled collection of pain and desire which initially rules the roost in all of us.

 

And as it won't commit suicide, you cannot trust anything it comes up with.

 

So you need a phase, at least, where intellect is completely subdued, otherwise you'll never get to a stage where you can tell the difference between clear functioning and being led around with a blindfold on.

 

Just my passion-riddled opinion.

[Yen Hui]

The trouble is that ALL the decisions about what needs to be done with the intellect are taken by the polluted,

passion-riddled collection of pain and desire which initially rules the roost in all of us.

 

And as it won't commit suicide, you cannot trust anything it comes up with.

 

So you need a phase, at least, where intellect is completely subdued, otherwise you'll never get to a stage

where you can tell the difference between clear functioning and being led around with a blindfold on.

Yes, that is absolutely true! Returning the intellect (i.e. physical mind) to the spirit is achieved through the

practice of keeping still, according to Hexagram 52; by which a state of equilibrium is realized and intellect

is subdued. This is what the Ancestors rferred to as the state of emotional clarity. Emotional clarity is a state

prior to the emergence of any emotion(s). When the emotions are stirred, but remain free of excessiveness

in any degree or measure, and are proportionate to the season or moment at hand, that is called emotional

harmony.