The Tao of Pooh

[beancurdturtle]

The trouble is that ALL the decisions about what needs to be done with the intellect are taken by the polluted, passion-riddled collection of pain and desire which initially rules the roost in all of us.

 

And as it won't commit suicide, you cannot trust anything it comes up with.

 

So you need a phase, at least, where intellect is completely subdued, otherwise you'll never get to a stage where you can tell the difference between clear functioning and being led around with a blindfold on.

 

 

When the emotions are stirred, but remain free of excessiveness in any degree or measure, and are proportionate to the season or moment at hand, that is called emotional harmony.

Nice!

 

Well said, both of you.

[Lozen]

Anyway, I posted the quote because it caught my attention. I reread the entire book; just finished it today. I am interested in learning more about emptiness, wu wei and the uncarved block. They are barely touched upon in this book. I'm not a Taoist scholar but have always been attracted to Taoism because of this book (didn't even make it through the Taoist Classics.) However I first read this over ten years ago (iirc) and the passages I underlined then are the same I would have underlined now. Here they are:

 

(speaking on what he calls confusionist, desicated scholars)

 

Far from reflecting the Taoist ideal of wholeness and independence, this incomplete and unbalanced creature divides all kinds of abstract things into little categories and compartments, while remaining rather helpless and disorganized in his daily life. Rather than learn from Taoist teachers and from direct experience, he learns intellectually and indirectly from books. And since he doesn't usually put Taoist principles into practice in an everyday sort of way, his explanations of them tend to leave out some rather important details, such as how they work and where you can apply them. But that is the sort of thing we can expect from the Abstract Owl, the dried-up Western descendant of the Confucianist Dedicated Scholar, who, unlike his Noble but rather Unimaginative ancestor, thinks he has some sort of monopoly on--

 

About Cottleston Pie:

"Now, the last part of the principle: "Why does a chicken, I don't know why." Why does a chicken do what it does? You don't know? Neither do we. Neither does anyone else. Science likes to strut around and Act Smart by putting its labels on everything, but if you look at them closely, you'll see that they don't really say much. "Genes"? "DNA"? Just scratching the surface. "Instinct"? You know what that means:

 

CURIOUS: "Why do birds fly South for the winter?"

SCIENCE: "Instinct."

 

It means "We don't know."

 

The important thing is, we don't really need to know. We don't need to imitate Nearsighted Science, which peers through the world through an electron microscope, looking for answers it will never find and coming up with more questions instead. We don't need to play Abstract Philosopher, asking unnecessary questions and coming up with meaningless answers. What we need to do is recognize Inner Nature and work with Things The Way They Are. When we don't, we get in trouble.

 

Our Bisy Backson religions, sciences, and business ethics have tried their hardest to convince us that there is a Great Reward waiting for us somewhere, and that what we have to do is spend our lives working like lunatics to catch up with it. Whether it's up in the sky, behind the next molecule, or in the executive suite; it is somehow always farther along than we are-just down the road, on the other side of the world, past the moon, beyond the stars...

 

Looking back a few years, we see that the first Bisy Backsons in this part of the world, the Puritans, practically worked themselves to death in fields without getting much of anything in return for their tremendous effort. They were actually starving until the wiser inhabitants of the land showed them a few things about working in harmony with the earth's rhythms. Now you plant; now you relax. Now you work with the soil; now you leave it alone. The Puritans never really understood the second half, never really believed in it. And so, after two or three centuries of pushing, pushing, and pushing the once-fertile earth, and a few years of depleting its energy still further with synthetic stimulants, we have apples that taste like cardboard, oranges that taste like tennis balls, and pears that taste like sweetened Styrofoam, all products of soil that is not allowed to relax. We're not supposed to complain, but There It Is.

 

from Thoreau:

Why should we live with such hurry and waste of life? We are determined to be starved before we are hungry. Men say that a stitch in time saves nine, and so they take a thousand stitches today to save nine tomorrow.

 

quoting Chuang-Tse

It is widely recognized that the courageous spirit of a single man can inspire to victory an army of thousands. If one concerned with ordinary gain can create such an effect, how much more will be produced by one who cares for greater things!

 

another quote:

When the Clear mind listens to a bird singing, the Stuffed-Full-Of-Knowledge-And-Cleverness mind wonders what kind of bird is singing. The more Stuffed Up it is, the less it can hear through its own ears and see through its own eyes. Knowledge and Cleverness tend to concern themselves with the wrong sorts of thigns, and a mind confused by Knowledge, Cleverness and Abstract Ideas tends to go chasing off after things that don't matter, or that don't even exist, instead of seeing, appreciating and making use of what is right in front of it.

 

From the Tao Te Ching:

To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove things every day.

 

another quote:

Gathering, analyzing, sorting and storing information- these functions and more the mind can perform so automatically, skillfully, and effortlessly that it makes the most sophisticated computer look like a plastic toy by comparison. But it can do infinitely more. To use the mind as it's all too commonly used, on the kind of things that it's usually used on, is about as inefficient and inappropriate as using a magic sword to open up a can of beans. The power of a clear mind is beyond description. But it can be attained by anyone who can appreciate and utilize the value of Nothing.

 

and finally:

The masters of life know the Way, for the listen to the voice within them, the voice of wisdom and simplicity, the voice that reasons beyond Cleverness and knows beyond Knowledge. That voice is noit just the power and property of a few, but has been given to everyone. Those who pay attention to it are too often treated as exceptions to a rule, rather than as examples of the rule in operation, a rule that can apply to anyone who makes a use of it.

[Yen Hui]

quoting Chuang-Tse

another quote:

From the Tao Te Ching:

Lozen, do you happen to know which translations of the Tao Te Ching and

Chuang Tzu your quotes are taken from? And from which sections? Thanks!

[Lozen]

Lozen, do you happen to know which translations of the Tao Te Ching and

Chuang Tzu your quotes are taken from? And from which sections? Thanks!

 

I am quoting from the Tao of Pooh, which was quoting from the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu. I know it's the 48th chapter of the Tao Te Ching. Not sure about Chuang Tzu.

 

I do find the question ironic.

[beancurdturtle]

I do find the question ironic.

Most are.

[Yen Hui]

I do find the question ironic.

Not sure what you mean, really. The fact is, it was not entirely clear from your formatting that all the quotes

were actually from Pooh's Tao; despite the fact you did state you were quoting the passages you underlined

in your copy of that book. Still, that alone is insufficient in itself to make it clear, to anyone who has'nt read

that text, like myself, that all the quotes you posted were taken from that one text source. But, since we're

speaking of the ironic, I should say that I found the following statement by freeform to be ironic:-

 

Yen, I suspect my reply will not be of much value to you, since I'm not going to be quoting canonical texts. I

dont read much of them any longer.

 

It's also quite hard to make factual sounding statements from something that was written in a different culture

in a different time with a completely different language... The thing is interpretation is quite hard - these are

not scientific documents, and there aren't clearly defined terms.

 

Based on the above confession, freeform, it would appear your problem with the "canonical texts" is that your

method of approach was too "critical" or "intellectual" in nature. That strikes me as ironic, and the completely

wrong spirit in which to approach the study of such texts. As hard as I try, I can't remember ever reading of a

contemporary Taoist master ever making a similar statement as this. Can you? I mean, have you ever heard

of a contemporary Taoist master ever claiming that s/he does'nt read much of the canonical texts any longer,

for any reason whatever, let alone those stated by yourself?

 

However, regarding the nature of cosmic intelligence, I would agree with you that it's proper seat is the primal

spirit mind, as opposed to the earthly intellect. You, on the other hand, appear to have conceded my original

point - that some degree of natural reason or intellectual knowledge is required in the work of disseminating

this "higher" intelligence. It is also my belief that the experience of cosmic intelligence directly affects "reason"

and the way we use it.

 

When the Great Harmony is restored within us, the natural order prevails, the physical mind is devoted to the

service of the primal spirit mind; and looks to it for guidance in all things. It's transformed into a well-polished

reflector of cosmic intelligence. Not only that, but it then approaches everything in the pure light of the Eternal

Tao; from the dispassionate standpoint of the cosmic center of the universe!

[freeform]

You, on the other hand, appear to have conceded my original

point - that some degree of natural reason or intellectual knowledge is required in the work of disseminating

this "higher" intelligence. It is also my belief that the experience of cosmic intelligence directly affects "reason"

and the way we use it.

 

We're in agreement

 

Can you? I mean, have you ever heard

of a contemporary Taoist master ever claiming that s/he does'nt read much of the canonical texts any longer,

for any reason whatever, let alone those stated by yourself?

 

To be honest I dont consider myself a Taoist - I'm still not even sure what it means. I'm also a very kinesthetic person, and I need to be "in the body" to feel balanced - reading and generally 'contemplating' tends to get me out of my body - it doesn't mean I dont think or contemplate, I do, and still probably too much - but for me to 'understand' I need to feel it - not picture it, or talk about it or think about it. The tao that can be spoken about is not the tao - but nevertheless we carry on talking - I find that the tao that can be felt is probably much closer (at least for me) - and the kinesthetic sense is not so easy to talk about - at least for me...

[Lozen]

What I think is ironic is that you are questioning the translation the quotes were taken from instead of trying to understand what they mean. This goes against the spirit of just about every quote I posted.

 

But if we're aiming for precision, that would be the Tao of Pooh, not Pooh's Tao.

[Yen Hui]

The tao that can be spoken about is not the tao - but nevertheless we carry on talking ...

 

You've missed an important word there, I believe: It should read, "not the eternal Tao." In other words, it is not

the Imageless Image, or the Tao in Its highest state of Non-being. But Lao Tzu did'nt stop there, did he? If he

had, then the rest of the Tao te Ching could not have been written. The obvious question, then, arising from

the words you've just quoted, is this: What, then, did Lao Tzu write 5000 Chinese characters about, if not

about the Eternal Tao? He wrote about the "Being of Tao," or the 10,000 manifestions of Tao within time and

space.

 

There are no words that can describe the Non-being of Tao, but there are at least 5000 Chinese characters to

describe the 10,000 manifestations of Tao's being in time and space. Cleary translates line two in the following

terms: "Names can be given, but not permanent labels." The reason for this is obvious, I think, and it's because

the world of being is continuously changing. However, if you keep reading through this first chapter of Lao Tzu,

you'll see that he very clearly says that "being" and "non-being" are one in terms of their origin, and different

only in name.

 

What I think is ironic is that you are questioning the translation the quotes were taken from instead of trying to

understand what they mean. This goes against the spirit of just about every quote I posted.

 

What do they say about appearances? If you thought even for a second, after all I've posted in this thread,

that I was either evading the meaning of your quotes, or even worse still, that I did'nt care what they meant,

then you obviously deluded yourself. But rather than give you the satisfaction of my thoughts on those now, I'll

instead quote some Chuang Tzu back at you, for the time being:-

 

TWO QUOTES FROM CHUANG TZU:-

 

01 - "The world thinks the most valuable exhibition of Tao is found in its classic books. But books are only a collection

of words. Words are valuable: what is valuable in them is the ideas they convey. But those ideas are a

sequence of something else, and that something else can't be conveyed by words.

 

When the world, because of the value it attaches to words, commits those words to books, the thing it so

values them for may not deserve to be valued. Because what the world values is'nt what is really valuable."

 

02 - "Fishing baskets are for catching fish. But when the fish are caught, you forget the baskets. Snares are for

catching hares, but when the hares are trapped, you forget the snares. Words are for conveying ideas, but

when the ideas are understood, you forget the words. How I'd love to talk with someone who's forgotten

all the words!"

 

Both of the above quotes are taken from, The Tao - Finding the Way of Balance and Harmony, pp. 14-15. With

a third quote from Huainan Tzu, and a final fourth quote from the I Ching, just to round things off:-

 

03 - "Those who know how to learn are like axles of a car: the center of the hub does not itself move, but with it

they go a thousand miles, beginning again when they finish, operating an inexhaustible resource.

 

Thos who do not know how to learn are as though lost: tell them the cardinal directions, and they misunderstand;

listening from their own point of view, they are disoriented and therefore fail to get the gist of the whole matter."

( Taoist Classics, Vol. 1, p. 374 )

 

04 - LINK=> Hexagram 20 - Line 6

 

Contemplation of his life.

The superior man is without blame.

 

"While the preceding line represents a man who contemplates himself, here in the highest place everything

that is personal, related to the ego, is excluded. The picture is that of a sage who stands outside the affairs of

the world. Liberated from his ego, he contemplates the laws of life and so realizes that knowing how to become

free of blame is the highest good."

Edited June 28, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Leidee]

Eeesh.

[freeform]

You've missed an important word there, I believe: It should read, "not the eternal Tao." In other words, it is not

the Imageless Image, or the Tao in Its highest state of Non-being. But Lao Tzu did'nt stop there, did he? If he

had, then the rest of the Tao te Ching could not have been written. The obvious question, then, arising from

the words you've just quoted, is this: What, then, did Lao Tzu write 5000 Chinese characters about, if not

about the Eternal Tao? He wrote about the "Being of Tao," or the 10,000 manifestions of Tao within time and

space.

 

There are no words that can describe the Non-being of Tao, but there are at least 5000 Chinese characters to

describe the 10,000 manifestations of Tao's being in time and space. Cleary translates line two in the following

terms: "Names can be given, but not permanent labels." The reason for this is obvious, I think, and it's because

the world of being is continuously changing. However, if you keep reading through this first chapter of Lao Tzu,

you'll see that he very clearly says that "being" and "non-being" are one in terms of their origin, and different

only in name.

 

Dear Yen

 

I used to be quite 'wordy' - I studied semantics and linguistics for fun

 

Alfred Korzybski (of General Semantics 'fame') was my hero - I even wrote my entire dissertation in e-prime. I studied linguistic Metamodelling and could take you on a brain-swelling ride explaining all the nominalizations, presuppositions, bad use of modal opperators, lost performatives, complex equivalences, deletions, distortions and generalizations in your posts...

 

I found a wealth of powerful ideas that changed how I 'thought' - and the result of this expanded way of thinking was that I found little satisfaction in thought. Yes I still follow Korzybski's famous "the map is not the territory" which is the same as "The tao that can be spoken about is not the eternal Tao" - nevertheless both Korzybski and Lao Tzu carried on talking - elaborating on the map.

 

I've had enough of the map - and I'm leaving the safety of it's certainties - I'm venturing into the territory and it turns out that when you're really in the thick of it, maps only tend to hinder your progress...

[fatherpaul]

Dear Yen

 

I used to be quite 'wordy' - I studied semantics and linguistics for fun

 

Alfred Korzybski (of General Semantics 'fame') was my hero - I even wrote my entire dissertation in e-prime. I studied linguistic Metamodelling and could take you on a brain-swelling ride explaining all the nominalizations, presuppositions, bad use of modal opperators, lost performatives, complex equivalences, deletions, distortions and generalizations in your posts...

 

I found a wealth of powerful ideas that changed how I 'thought' - and the result of this expanded way of thinking was that I found little satisfaction in thought. Yes I still follow Korzybski's famous "the map is not the territory" which is the same as "The tao that can be spoken about is not the eternal Tao" - nevertheless both Korzybski and Lao Tzu carried on talking - elaborating on the map.

 

I've had enough of the map - and I'm leaving the safety of it's certainties - I'm venturing into the territory and it turns out that when you're really in the thick of it, maps only tend to hinder your progress...

this is wonderful

i also went the way of sematics

"reality is just a matter of semantics"

i wish you well brother

 

peace

paul

[Eric23]

I've had enough of the map - and I'm leaving the safety of it's certainties - I'm venturing into the territory and it turns out that when you're really in the thick of it, maps only tend to hinder your progress...

 

As a professional cartographer, I have a great love of maps. The key is to study the map and let it become a part of you before you leave for the territory.

 

edit, I know we're speaking metaphoricly, however the map can still become a part of you in real life navigation.

Edited June 30, 2007 by Eric23

[freeform]

As a professional cartographer, I have a great love of maps. The key is to study the map and let it become a part of you before you leave for the territory.

 

edit, I know we're speaking metaphoricly, however the map can still become a part of you in real life navigation.

 

I agree completely - I think that's exactly what happened with me - I just have to add that indeed you must let the map become completely part of you - you have to study the map to the utmost of your ability - but then you must let it all go. It's so hard, but in my oppinion so necessary.

 

i wish you well brother

 

 

Thank you.

[beancurdturtle]

Eeesh.

*chuckle*

 

"reality is just a matter of semantics"

ain't that the truth?

[Yen Hui]

Eeesh.

Some touchie-feely "Pooh-lingo" all for me! Ah shucks! Now you've gone and done made me feel like a

big piece of Pooh. Ahhhh, how really special, but you should'nt have. What are feelings any way, if not

just passing moods of the heart? Grand ol' illusions, as they say.

 

I studied linguistic Metamodelling and could take you on a brain-swelling ride explaining all the

nominalizations, presuppositions, bad use of modal opperators, lost performatives, complex equivalences,

deletions, distortions and generalizations in your posts...

Interesting. Go for it, if you feel like it. Let's see what you got there. Knock yourself out trying. Trust me when

I say that I can handle "the ride".

 

I found a wealth of powerful ideas that changed how I 'thought' - and the result of this expanded way of

thinking was that I found little satisfaction in thought. Yes I still follow Korzybski's famous "the map is not

the territory" which is the same as "The tao that can be spoken about is not the eternal Tao" - nevertheless

both Korzybski and Lao Tzu carried on talking - elaborating on the map.

Lao Tzu distinguishes between the being and non-being of Tao. That is very clear. If you deny that, then just

say so and we'll check the map again. It seems equally clear to me he was writing about the ever-changing

manifestations of the "being" of Tao, or the tracks it leaves within time and space. The unmanifest aspect of

Tao, that is to say, the non-being of Tao within the Great Void was not the map's "topi-graphical" subject, in

a strict manner of speaking - and yet as I have said - the being and non-being of Tao differ only in name, at

least according to "the particular map" in question.

 

I've had enough of the map - and I'm leaving the safety of it's certainties - I'm venturing into the territory and

it turns out that when you're really in the thick of it, maps only tend to hinder your progress...

So Lao Tzu only intended to hinder our progress by giving us a map of the Way? How very insightful.

 

I agree completely - I think that's exactly what happened with me - I just have to add that indeed you must

let the map become completely part of you - you have to study the map to the utmost of your ability - but

then you must let it all go. It's so hard, but in my oppinion so necessary.

You're either one with the map, freeform, or you "had enough of the map." Which is it? It seems to me that if

you were trully one with the map, then you'd be a "real" Taoist, but you claimed earlier that you were not. So

which one of the two is the "real" you?

Edited July 1, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Leidee]

Ahhh...the decent into patronization has commenced! Unfortunately, this "ride" bores me somewhat and I shall leave it to people who wish to wield their assuredly substantial vocabulary (s)words more freely than I.

 

I think it goes without saying that many people on this board are quite well read. Personally, I find it slightly boring to repeat what another has said before me...give me the fresh thoughts, please!

 

When I next run into Lao Tsu, I shall ask if the maps were intended to hinder us. I hope he doesn't take the question too personally.

 

Is the above (possibly) contradictory? Yes. Do I care? (definitely) No(t).

 

All of a sudden I have a craving for honey. Go figure.

[Yen Hui]

Ahhh...the decent into patronization has commenced!

To which of the two above categories does "eesh" belong: the decent or the patronizing?

 

Unfortunately, this "ride" bores me somewhat ...

A big yaawwwnnn!

 

... and I shall leave it to people who wish to wield their assuredly substantial vocabulary (s)words more freely

than I.

Are you trying to say the vocabulary of "Pooh"-lingo is insubstantial? Ah, but it "feels" sooo good - right?

 

Personally, I find it slightly boring to repeat what another has said before me...give me the fresh thoughts,

please!

Shusssh! Don't let Taomeow hear you you say that. It'll hurt her feelings! LOL

 

Hexagram 26 ( <=LINK )

 

THE IMAGE

Heaven within the mountain:

The image of THE TAMING POWER OF THE GREAT.

Thus the superior man acquaints himself with many sayings of antiquity

And many deeds of the past,

In order to strengthen his character thereby.

 

Heaven within the mountain points to hidden treasures. In the words and deeds of the past there lies hidden

a treasure that men may use to strengthen and elevate their own characters. The way to study the past is

not to confine oneself to mere knowledge of history but, through application of this knowledge, to give

actuality to the past.

 

When I next run into Lao Tsu, I shall ask if the maps were intended to hinder us. I hope he doesn't take the

question too personally.

If you meet him on the Way, say hello for me, and tell him I said he should drop by my place again, some

time "real" soon!

 

Is the above (possibly) contradictory? Yes. Do I care? (definitely) No(t).

You don't care? Oh no, I'm positively shattered! Everyone knows "real" Taoists care about what's real; or

so I use to think. Silly me. Dreaming again. LOL

 

All of a sudden I have a craving for honey.

Craving? What do they say about "craving"? That it only causes suffering, maybe, or something like that! LOL

 

Go figure.

How "rational" for a "honey-craving" Pooh devotee. I'm not at all surprised, to be honest, though!

Edited July 1, 2007 by Yen Hui

[Yen Hui]

Personally, I find it slightly boring to repeat what another has said before me...give me the fresh thoughts,

please!

In An Online Essay About Wilhelm (<=LINK), we read the following statement about his profound respect for

Goethe: "Wilhelm was born far from China, in Germany, in 1873. As a student in a prestigious school, Tubinger Slift,

he had broad cultural interests with a special love for the works of the great German poet, Johann Wolfgang von

Goethe." His love for Goethe is quite apparent, for example, in his Lectures on the I Ching, where he quotes him

several times, to illustrate the Teachings of the I Ching. The reason for this is obvious, I feel: It's because he

believed there is a close affinity between the two; but the same observation can be made of several Western

thinkers, contrary to the claim(s) made by The Pooh Book. The following two quotes from him exemplify this

close affinity, and strike me as being in perfect alignment with the spirit of Hexagram 26, as quoted above /

below:-

 

01 - "All intelligent thoughts have already been thought; what is necessary is only to try to think them

again." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, and also this next one =>

 

02 - "All truly wise thoughts have been thoughts already thousands of times; but to make them truly

ours, we must think them over again honestly, till they take root in our personal experience."

 

03 - Hexagram 26 ( <=LINK )

 

THE IMAGE

Heaven within the mountain:

The image of THE TAMING POWER OF THE GREAT.

Thus the superior man acquaints himself with many sayings of antiquity

And many deeds of the past,

In order to strengthen his character thereby.

 

Heaven within the mountain points to hidden treasures. In the words and deeds of the past there lies hidden

a treasure that men may use to strengthen and elevate their own characters. The way to study the past is

not to confine oneself to mere knowledge of history but, through application of this knowledge, to give

actuality to the past.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Yen Hui

[fatherpaul]

02 - "All truly wise thoughts have been thoughts already thousands of times; but to make them truly

ours, we must think them over again honestly, till they take root in our personal experience."

 

 

true in one sense

but the implication is even more revealing

[Yen Hui]

(speaking on what he calls confusionist, desicated scholars)

 

"Far from reflecting the Taoist ideal of wholeness and independence, this incomplete and unbalanced

creature divides all kinds of abstract things into little categories and compartments, while remaining rather

helpless and disorganized in his daily life. Rather than learn from Taoist teachers and from direct experience,

he learns intellectually and indirectly from books. And since he doesn't usually put Taoist principles into

practice in an everyday sort of way, his explanations of them tend to leave out some rather important details,

such as how they work and where you can apply them. But that is the sort of thing we can expect from the

Abstract Owl, the dried-up Western descendant of the Confucianist Dedicated Scholar, who, unlike his Noble

but rather Unimaginative ancestor, thinks he has some sort of monopoly on -- "

Since freeform alludes above to generalizations, I cannot help but to note the irony in the above quote from

the 'Book of Pooh', as it's the quintessential illustration of that particular pitfall. It's as much a gross caricature

of the history of Chinese thought as of Western thought. It painfully illustrates just how little knowledge the

author had of those fields of enquiry, or the history of Eastern and Western "ideas". Read a good history of

Chinese ideas and see if what I say is'nt so. There is no way you can stereotype Confucians, or Taoists, or

Westerners in the above manner. This should appear abundantly clear merely from lino's earlier post, alone:-

 

In William Bodri's "How to meditate" ebook, he quotes Confucius as saying that "right knowing" is one of the

outcomes of meditation.

The Confucian teaching on meditation, to which Bodri has alluded in the above book, is clearly supported by

the following comments made by Shaolin Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit, in his Complete Book of Zen:-

 

FOUR COMMENTS MADE BY GRANDMASTER WONG:-

 

01 - "Virtually all the great scholars responsible for the revival of Confucianism during the Sung Dynasty ...

studied Zen. Some of them made a point of spending some time each year in Zen monasteries to practise Zen."

( p. 167 )

 

02 - "During the Sung Dynasty, Zen as meditation was such an important practise among Confucian scholars

that Zhu Xi's (Chu Hsi's) advice to 'spend half the day on meditation, and the other half on study' became a

Confucian axiom." ( p. 168 )

 

03 - "Zen philosophy on cosmic reality, where form is emptiness and emptiness is form, also had a remarkable

influence on Confucian philosophers and scientists (or rationalists). The Confucian philosophy that the universe

can be explained by the two primordial concepts of 'chi' (energy) and 'li' (principle) was a result of the Buddhist

philosophy of emptiness and form. Lu Xiang Shan (1139-93) said: 'The cosmos is my mind; my mind is the

cosmos.' " ( p. 168 - Please note that Lu Xiang Shan was the teacher of the great Neo-Confucian Wang

Yang-ming. )

 

04 - "Confucian philosophers and scientists did not merely speculate on the cosmos. Through the practice of

Zen meditation and the study of Taoist thought, they discovered astonishing facts that were not known to

modern science until many centuries later. For example, Zhou Dun Yi (1017-73), often regarded as the father

of Confucian physics, systematically described the structure of the cosmos using the Taoist Taiji concept in

terms which modern scientists would interpret as the constant integration and disintegration of energy and

matter. His contemporary, Shao Yong (1011-77), described the subatomic world using the Taoist Bagua

(Pakua) concept in terms now used in computer science and to explain DNA!" ( p. 168-169 )

 

Now, assuming the above is true, in fact, (as I do,) that it was the wide-spread habit of Confucian scholars,

at least during the Sung Dynasty period, to actually spend half of every single day in deep meditation, then

how utterly ridiculous does that make the Pooh Book sound? At least in regard to its general stereotype

or false caricature of Confucians.

 

In the last of the four quotes, Grandmaster Wong says "Confucian philosophers and scientists did not merely

speculate on the cosmos. Through the practice of Zen meditation and the study of Taoist thought, they

discovered astonishing facts that were not known to modern science until many centuries later." However, the

Pooh Book says that "rather than learn from Taoist teachers and from direct experience," the Confucian "learns

intellectually and indirectly from books;" which, as we plainly see, is a complete contradiction of Grandmaster

Wong! But who is right, though? Well, let us look into The Great Treatise (in Book 2 of Wilhelm's I Ching) for

some clues:-

 

05 - The Great Treatise - Part 2 - Chapter 5

 

" In the Changes it is said: 'If a man is agitated in mind, and his thoughts go hither and thither, only those

friends on whom he fixes his conscious thoughts will follow.'

 

"The Master said: 'What need has nature of thoughts and care? In nature all things return to their common

source and are distributed along different paths; through one action, the fruits of a hundred thoughts

are realized. What need (has) nature of thought, of care?' "

 

06 - Again from The Great Treatise - Part 2 - Chapter 5

 

" The Master said: Yen Hui is one who will surely attain it. If he has a fault, he never fails to recognize

it; having recognized it, he never commits the error a second time. In the Changes it is said: 'Return from a

short distance. No need for remorse. Great good fortune.'

 

" This is an example of a line showing that one can learn from experience. Yen Hui was a favorite disciple

of Confucius. It is said in the Analects too that he never committed the same error twice. See the explanation

of the nine at the beginning in Hexagram 24, Fu, RETURN (Bk. III of Wilhelm's I Ching)." [End of Quotes]

 

So, here we have the teaching of The Treatise, on the practice of experimental learning, or learning directly

from experience. Please note regarding the words, "The Master said," that it's virtually accepted by all that

this expression refers to Confucius. The first quote says that "through one action, the fruits of a hundred

thoughts are realized." Now, does that sound like the teaching of a heady "intellectual," or one who learns

only "indirectly from books," as the Pooh Book asserts, rather than "from direct experience?" In the second

quote, Wilhelm states that the Confucian Yen Hui exemplifies this experimental practice, of learning directly

"from experience!"

 

This classic was actually written by the earliest known Neo-Confucians, descending from the great Yen Hui,

I believe, and down through Mencius. It should be noted that though it is widely held Yen Hui attained the

Tao, he did not record any of his teachings! How's that for a head-strong "intellectual"? What is known of,

or about him comes through secondary sources, like The Treatise and Chuang Tzu's own writings, which I've

quoted below, in corroboration of both The Treatise and Grandmaster Wong; and thus discrediting the Pooh

Book's gross caricaturization.

 

CHUANG TZU'S DEPICTION OF YEN HUI:-

 

07 - From Chapter 6, entitled: 'The Great Ancestral Master'

 

"I'm gaining ground," said Yen Hui.

 

"What do you mean?" asked Confucius.

 

"I've forgotten Humanity and Duty completely."

 

"Not bad! But that's still not it."

 

A few days later they met again and Yen Hui said, "I'm gaining ground."

 

"What do you mean?"

 

"I've forgotten ritual and music completely."

 

"Not bad! But that's still not it."

 

A few days later they met again and Yen Hui said, "I'm gaining ground."

 

"What do you mean?"

 

"I sit quietly and forget."

 

Confucius shifted around uneasily. "What do you mean 'sit quietly and forget'?" he asked his disciple.

 

"I let the body fall away and the intellect fade. I throw out form, abandon understanding - and then move

freely, blending away into the great transformation. That's what I mean by 'sit quietly and forget'."

 

"If you blend away like that, you're free of likes and dislikes," said Confucius. "If you're all transformation,

you're free of permanence. So in the end, the true sage here is you. So you won't mind if I follow you

from now on, will you?"

 

Only a true sage masters true understanding. What does "true sage" mean? The true sages of old never

avoided want, never flaunted perfection, never worked at schemes. If you're like that, you can be wrong

without remorse and right without conceit. You can scale the heights without trembling in fear, dive into

deep water without getting wet, walk into fire without getting burned. This is how understanding can

ascend delusion into the heights of Tao."

 

08 - From Chapter 4, entitled 'In the World of Men'

 

YEN HUI WENT TO SEE Confucius and asked permission to take a trip.1

 

"Where are you going?"

 

"I'm going to Wei."

 

"What will you do there?"

 

"I have heard that the ruler of Wei is very young. He acts in an independent manner, thinks little of how he

rules his state, and fails to see his faults. It is nothing to him to lead his people into peril, and his dead are

reckoned by swampfuls like so much grass.2 His people have nowhere to turn. I have heard you say, Master,

`Leave the state that is well ordered and go to the state in chaos! At the doctor's gate are many sick men.' I

want to use these words as my standard, in hopes that I can restore his state to health."

 

"Ah," said Confucius, "you will probably go and get yourself executed, that's all. The Way doesn't want things

mixed in with it. When it becomes a mixture, it becomes many ways; with many ways, there is a lot of bustle;

and where there is a lot of bustle, there is trouble - trouble that has no remedy! The Perfect Man of ancient

times made sure that he had it in himself before he tried to give it to others. When you're not even sure what

you've got in yourself, how do you have time to bother about what some tyrant is doing?

 

"Do you know what it is that destroys virtue, and where wisdom comes from? Virtue is destroyed by fame,

and wisdom comes out of wrangling. Fame is something to beat people down with, and wisdom is a device for

wrangling. Both are evil weapons - not the sort of thing to bring you success. Though your virtue may be great

and your good faith unassailable, if you do not understand men's spirits, though your fame may be wide and

you do not strive with others, if you do not understand men's minds, but instead appear before a tyrant and

force him to listen to sermons on benevolence and righteousness, measures and standards - this is simply

using other men's bad points to parade your own excellence. You will be called a plaguer of others. He who

plagues others will be plagued in turn. You will probably be plagued by this man.

 

"And suppose he is the kind who actually delights in worthy men and hates the unworthy-then why does he

need you to try to make him any different? You had best keep your advice to yourself! Kings and dukes

always lord it over others and fight to win the argument. You will find your eyes growing dazed, your color

changing, your mouth working to invent excuses, your attitude becoming more and more humble, until in your

mind you end by supporting him. This is to pile fire on fire, to add water to water, and is called `increasing the

excessive.' If you give in at the beginning, there is no place to stop. Since your fervent advice is almost

certain not to be believed, you are bound to die if you come into the presence of a tyrant.

 

"In ancient times Chieh put Kuan Lung-feng to death and Chou put Prince Pi Kan to death. Both Kuan Lung-

feng and Prince Pi Kan were scrupulous in their conduct, bent down to comfort and aid the common people,

and used their positions as ministers to oppose their superiors. Therefore their rulers, Chieh and Chou,

utilized their scrupulous conduct as a means to trap them, for they were too fond of good fame. In ancient

times Yao attacked Ts'ung-chih and Hsu-ao, and Yu attacked Yu-hu, and these states were left empty and

unpeopled, their rulers cut down. It was because they employed their armies constantly and never ceased

their search for gain. All were seekers of fame or gain - have you alone not heard of them? Even the sages

cannot cope with men who are after fame or gain, much less a person like you!

 

"However, you must have some plan in mind. Come, tell me what it is."

 

Yen Hui said, "If I am grave and empty-hearted, diligent and of one mind, won't that do?"

 

"Goodness, how could that do? You may put on a fine outward show and seem very impressive, but you

can't avoid having an uncertain look on your face, any more than an ordinary man can.3 And then you try

to gauge this man's feelings and seek to influence his mind. But with him, what is called `the virtue that

advances a little each day' would not succeed, much less a great display of virtue! He will stick fast to his

position and never be converted. Though he may make outward signs of agreement, inwardly he will not

give it a thought! How could such an approach succeed?"

 

"Well then, suppose I am inwardly direct, outwardly compliant, and do my work through the examples of

antiquity? By being inwardly direct, I can be the companion of Heaven. Being a companion of Heaven, I

know that the Son of Heaven and I are equally the sons of Heaven. Then why would I use my words to try

to get men to praise me, or try to get them not to praise me? A man like this, people call The Child. This is

what I mean by being a companion of Heaven.

 

"By being outwardly compliant, I can be a companion men. Lifting up the tablet, kneeling, bowing, crouching

down - this is the etiquette of a minister. Everybody does it, so why shouldn't I? If I do what other people

do, they can hardly criticize me. This is what I mean by being a companion of men.

 

"By doing my work through the examples of antiquity, I can be the companion of ancient times. Though my

words may in fact be lessons and reproaches, they belong to ancient times and not to me. In this way, though

I may be blunt, I cannot he blamed. This is what I mean by being a companion of antiquity. If I go about it in

this way, will it do?"

 

Confucius said, "Goodness, how could that do? You have too many policies and plans and you haven't seen

what is needed. You will probably get off without incurring any blame, yes. But that will be as far as it goes.

How do you think you can actually convert him? You are still making the mind 4 your teacher!"

 

Yen Hui said, "I have nothing more to offer. May I ask the proper way?"

 

"You must fast!" said Confucius. "I will tell you what that means. Do you think it is easy to do anything while

you have [a mind]? If you do, Bright Heaven will not sanction you."

 

Yen Hui said, "My family is poor. I haven't drunk wine or eaten any strong foods for several months. So can

I be considered as having fasted?"

 

"That is the fasting one does before a sacrifice, not the fasting of the mind."

 

[Yen Hui said,] "May I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

 

Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't

listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with

recognition, but spirit is empty- and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone.

Emptiness is the fasting of the mind."

 

Yen Hui said, "Before I heard this, I was certain that I was Hui. But now that I have heard it, there

is no more Hui. Can this be called emptiness?"

 

"That's all there is to it," said Confucius. "Now I will tell you. You may go and play in his bird cage, but

never be moved by fame. If he listens, then sing; if not, keep still. Have no gate, no opening, but make

oneness your house and live with what cannot be avoided. Then you will be close to success.

 

"It is easy to keep from walking; the hard thing is to walk without touching the ground. It is easy to cheat

when you work for men, but hard to cheat when you work for Heaven. You have heard of flying with wings,

but you have never heard of flying without wings. You have heard of the knowledge that knows, but you

have never heard of the knowledge that does not know. Look into that closed room, the empty chamber

where brightness is born! Fortune and blessing gather where there is stillness. But if you do not keep still -

this is what is called sitting but racing around. Let your ears and eyes communicate with what is inside, and

put mind and knowledge on the outside. Then even gods and spirits will come to dwell, not to speak of men!

This is the changing of the ten thousand things, the bond of Yu and Shun, the constant practice of Fu Hsi and

Chi Ch'u. How much more should it be a rule for lesser men!" [End of Quote(s) from Chuang Tzu]

 

Now I ask you: Does Chuang Tzu's depiction of Confucius and his disciples, as depicted in Yen Hui, support

the viewpoint of Pooh's Book, or Grandmaster Wong's and that of The Great Treatise? Btw, Wilhelm states in

the I Ching that the teachings of The Great Treatise are best studied in conjunction with two other Confucian

classics entitled The Doctrine of the Mean and The Great Learning. Professor Cheng Man-ch'ing, the great 20th

century Tai Chi master taught these classics to his students, claiming that they contained several important

keys to Tai Chi mastery! This is explained by Wolfe Lowenthal in his two books on Professor Cheng, entitled

There Are No Secrets and Gateway to the Miraculous.

 

from Thoreau: "Why should we live with such hurry and waste of life? We are determined to be starved

before we are hungry. Men say that a stitch in time saves nine, and so they take a thousand stitches

today to save nine tomorrow."

Seeing, now, the Pooh Book's skewed treatment of Confucians, how reliable then is it with regard to its

treatment of both Taoists and Westerners? Does it account for the many different varieties of Taoism;

like Neo-Taoism, for example, which is an integrated system or unity of Taoist, Confucian, and Buddhist

practice? And what about it's quoting the Western Thoreau? Is'nt that the epitomy of irony, when on the

other hand, as indicated above, it stereotypes all Western philosophers as lacking the Taoist wholeness

and independence of thought? And what about Wordsworth and those like him? Does the Pooh Book's

above caricaturization of Western thinkers as "abstract," "intellectual," "inexperienced," "incomplete,"

"imbalanced" and all "dried-up," equally apply to Wordsworth?"

 

FOUR QUOTES FROM WILLIAM WORDSWORTH:-

 

09 - "When from our better selves we have too long been parted by the hurrying world, and droop. Sick of

its business, of its pleasures tired, how gracious, how benign in solitude."

 

10 - "With an eye made quiet by the power of harmony, and the deep power of joy, we see into the life of

things."

 

11 - "Come forth into the light of things, Let Nature be your teacher."

 

12 - "Nature never did betray the heart that loved her."

Edited July 1, 2007 by Yen Hui

[freeform]

 

Yen, relax please. This is not a competition - I'm sorry if I've come accross as agressive in any way - you have nothing to defend, and neither do I. I'm fine with not being a 'real' Taoist.

 

I find you very erudite and am seriously impressed by your ability to have such an eye for detail - you have a distinct skill at noticing inconsistencies and similarities - something I'm only mediocre at.

 

In no way have I tried to imply that you're not very intelligent and thorough, and if it seemed that way, then you now know it wasn't my intention.

 

It's ok that we have a different approach to things, isn't it? And it's ok to disagree, but there's certainly no reason to become derogatory... For me words and thoughts and such have only a limited value - for you that's not the case I realise, that needn't make us 'enemies' though - right?

 

If you really are interested in linguistic metamodelling then I'd be happy to demonstrate, but not framed as some kind of challenge or test of intelligence. In fact I think it's something that might really interest you.

[Lozen]

Cottleston, Cottleston, Cottleston Pie

A fly can't bird, but a bird can fly

Ask me a question and I reply

Cottleston, Cottleston Pie

[Leidee]

Quite frankly, Yen Hui has had an agenda re this thread since its inception.

 

L

[Lozen]

Also the word was "confusionist," not "Confucianist." If you read the quote, it says, "the dried-up Western descendant of the Confucianist Dedicated Scholar." That would be called a play on words. Anyway, it's a lovely little book and I think you should read it before getting all offended by it.