Philosophical (Ancient) Taoism is RAISINETS

[beancurdturtle]

Edited June 24, 2007 by beancurdturtle

[林愛偉]

To me Taoist writing is like a RAISINETS.

 

There's a kernel to Philosophical Taoism. The wholesome, sweet, concentrated, honest stuff - the raisin if you will - of Laozi's Dao de Jing.

 

Then there's Zhuangzi. When you "get" the Dao de Jing - Zuangzi is a chuckley, bubbly, chocolaty, coating. It moves you closer to the center by making you laugh.

 

Sure, there's a lot of other writers, sages, and thinkers trying to clarify, simplify, profoundify, and X-ify Taoism. But I prefer RAISINETS to onions.

 

What's your take on it?

 

I'm listening - and I promise not to argue.

 

 

Because Daoism is a cultivation means, philosophy, religion, qigong, spiritual cultivation are all intertwined. Religion is only called religion because people assume that if there are certain things being done, that the manner is a religious one.

Philosophy of Daoism is not the end all be all... it is just a small percentage of what the whole picture entails. And it isn't even limited by the picture frame.

The thing is, whatever the mind is capable of perceiving, is what will be perceived. It doesn't mean that if philosophy is all that is seen by the cultivator, then there is only Daoist philosophy...the same goes for other manners of Daoist cultivation. There is more to it which takes one deeper in cultivation. Philosophy can not take you to attain immprtality, enlightenment.

By all means expand on what works for one's mind, but also realize that each mannerism is in itself everyother mannerism as well, and that not letting go of views will cause one to only accept on manner of cultivation. It may work for that person to have them understand, but it only works to reach one level. If that is all one can accept, then that is all they will be able to cultivate this time around..

 

Fun analogy though,,,, I also liked raisinettes as a child. now I like rice congee..

 

Peace,

Aiwei

Edited June 23, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Taomeow]

Fun analogy though,,,, I also liked raisinettes as a child. now I like rice congee..

 

Peace,

Aiwei

 

I put raisins in my congee!

[tumoessence]

I put raisins in my congee!

raison d'etre

[freeform]

Beancurdturtle,

 

can you explain what you mean by Philosophical Taoism. You seem to have a much broader perspective on the meaning than I do - to me it seems rather 'mental' - or mind-based - or knowledge based etc. You seem to imply something more than that, but I can't see it.

 

If I had to pigeon-hole my approach to Taoism, I'd call it Practical Taoism - although I don't really consider myself a Taoist - more of "Mystical Agnostic"

 

What does 'Practical Taoism' mean to you and how is Philosophical Taoism different to it?

 

thanks.

 

PS - I love your avatar!

[fatherpaul]

i also would like to know

the diffrentiation between "philosophical" Taoism and just plain Taoism

for me there is no "ism"

the tao is

taoist (if there is such a thing)

being aware of this, and its potential,

have learned to cultivate many talents, martial arts, medicine, etc.

like many learned persons through time have done.

 

to me its all happy pancakes

 

no slight to raisinets intended,

 

peace

paul

[beancurdturtle]

for me there is no "ism"

the tao is

I'm with you on this. I even feel strange capitalizing the word "tao" sometimes - because it's obvious, isn't it? It's like using bold type for the word "huge" - huge is bold by it's nature. Words crack me up, which is why Zhuangzi is a kick-in-the-ass for me. But I digress.

 

taoist (if there is such a thing)

being aware of this, and its potential,

have learned to cultivate many talents, martial arts, medicine, etc.

like many learned persons through time have done.

I totally get this too. I'd bet people have even turned this power to levitation.

 

First, thanks for the thoughts and reflections offered to my post. Philosophical Taoism is also referred to as "Ancient Taoism" or "Original Taoism" by some folks. So...

 

Let me offer this as a starting point for an explanation of a Philosophical Taoist or 受理古老道教. "受理古老道教" translates roughly to "one who accepts ancient Taoism."

 

About vital energy or physicality:

Go to this link: http://www.yakrider.com/Tao/Taoism_Daoism.htm

Scroll down the page to the section titled "Three Taoisms and Their Approaches to Te." This explanation talks about the approach to the physical aspects in an oversimplified way. It's aimed at folks who know little about Taoism - but I get the feeling most here can fill in the blanks.

 

So then, that basically covers the concept of appropriate use of vital energy. What about thoughts and what to do with your mind?

 

About the mind or philosophy:

For a starting point on this I'll quote Taoist Master Ni Hua-Ching(倪清和), who was the my first significant influence in studying Taoism.

In the relative realm, the human mind makes distinctions, evaluations and judgments. Yet at the depth of one's true nature, mental concepts dissolve and all that remains is the unconditional, essential nature of life.

 

The only thing that keeps us from experiencing our essential oneness with nature is the critical mind. The sense of separation which results from being bound to the critical mind produces all our obstacles.

 

It is the source of all our pain.

The objective in Philosophical Taoism is to create a way of existence (physicality) and thought (philosophy) that is congruent with the "essential nature of life." Actions and thoughts (thoughts being philosophy for living) should be directed towards becoming - on balance - a being of integrity, respect, and harmony, with everything. You don't need ritual, you don't need to fly, you don't need to empty your mind - you do need to un-learn, accept, and (I say) laugh.

 

Ok, so this also is an oversimplification - but it's a starting point for discussion.

 

老子: 「道德经」: 第十三章

宠辱若惊，贵大患若身。

何谓宠辱若惊。

 

宠为下，得之若惊，失之若惊，是谓宠辱若惊。

何谓贵大患若身。

 

吾所以有大患者，为吾有身，

及吾无身，吾有何患。

 

故贵以身为天下，若可寄天下﹔

爱以身为天下，若可托天下。

 

And an English interpolation of the verse:

Laozi: "Dao De Jing": 13th Chapter

Both praise and blame cause concern,

For they bring people hope and fear.

The object of hope and fear is the self -

For, without self, to whom may fortune and disaster occur?

 

Therefore,

Who distinguishes himself from the world may be given the world,

But who regards himself as the world may accept the world.

[fatherpaul]

as usual, i am non-plussed

 

but i feel your answers have merit

 

thank you

 

peace and happy pancakes

paul

[beancurdturtle]

as usual, i am non-plussed

Bless you.

 

Smacks of universal acceptance.

[林愛偉]

i also would like to know

the diffrentiation between "philosophical" Taoism and just plain Taoism

for me there is no "ism"

the tao is

taoist (if there is such a thing)

being aware of this, and its potential,

have learned to cultivate many talents, martial arts, medicine, etc.

like many learned persons through time have done.

 

to me its all happy pancakes

 

no slight to raisinets intended,

 

peace

paul

 

 

[林愛偉]

"""Laozi: "Dao De Jing": 13th Chapter

Both praise and blame cause concern,

For they bring people hope and fear.

The object of hope and fear is the self -

For, without self, to whom may fortune and disaster occur?

 

Therefore,

Who distinguishes himself from the world may be given the world,

But who regards himself as the world may accept the world."""

 

 

This is talking of no self.

"Both praise and blame cause concern." This means both good and bad occupy the mind resulting in the next sentence "For they bring people to hope and fear", which means people create thoughts which are false about their lives.

"The object of hope and fear is the self" means, that which hope and fear are moving around in, being paid attention to, is the original nature...which is not a self, but only refered to as one for the mind needs a reference point when cultivating, until it doesn't. If that wasn't true, Dao De Jing wouldn't need to be written.

"For without self, to whom may fortune and disaster occur?" This sentence isn't saying there is a self which must be a natural being and goes with the ups and downs, it is refering to detaching from the ups and downs. If one seeks fortune, its opposite is disaster, misfortune. If one seeks to balance, they are saying imbalance exists, and thus will experience it. The sentence is trying to bring the mind to the mind, not the conditions of fortune, disaster, duality. It is saying that if there is no idea of self to experience the ups and downs of one's emotions and conditions in mind, there would be no misfortune, and the manner of fortune which is of a dual nature.

 

The last part points to this exactly:

"Therefore, Who distinguishes himself from the world may be given the world, But who regards himself as the world may accept the world." This means if you discriminate, you create the dual mind, and regard things to be good and bad, thus are the worldly person of materialism and will result in receiving worldly things...desires and such. But if that is dropped, put down, and there is no distinguishing between you and the world, all things are accepted, but there is no one that does accepting. It is just as it is but without duality, a he or she, fortune disaster.. there is none of that but all things, and since the original mind is non dual, all things are not regarded as all or one. This is how it is accepted.

 

It is a non dual acceptance of all things not produced and not extinguished.

 

Peace and Happiness,

 

Aiwei

Edited June 23, 2007 by 林愛偉

[beancurdturtle]

林愛偉: Indeed!

 

fatherpaul: How do I distinguish the happiness of my pancakes?

[fatherpaul]

林愛偉: Indeed!

 

fatherpaul: How do I distinguish the happiness of my pancakes?

 

 

by the syrup

[Taomeow]

My two yuan:

 

I live in an area of Southern California where some people surf. Others like to watch the surfers from a vantage point on the beach. The observers like to talk about the surfers, the waves, the beauty of it, the power of it, the meaning of it all. The surfers -- they just surf. One of them has a bumper sticker on his board that says, "surfing sucks, don't try it."

 

To me, the surfers are "surfers," the observers of the surfers are "philosophical surfers," and the guy who surfs on the board that says "don't try it" is a surfing sage.

 

I see a striking similarity to all those taoist/ism discussions in this situtation. To me, a taoist who practices taoist arts and sciences is a taoist. A taoist who practices "tao of the mouth" is a philosophical taoist. A taoist who says he or she is not a taoist while practicing taoist arts and sciences (not while ism-bashing) is a taoist sage.

 

"-isms" and "-ists" are just descriptions of what people do, or don't do -- not of whether they are "at one with tao" or not. A "lepidopterist" is someone who studies, and perhaps catches, and perhaps classifies butterflies. It is a useful "-ism" to distinguish him from a "rapist," someone who rapes. Likewise, a "taoist" is not rendered meaningless just because it has an "ism" attached to it, it merely means "someone who practices taoist arts and sciences," he does that rather than "hunts," hunting would make him a "hunt-er," and an "-er" is no better nor worse than an "-ism" -- it just describes what someone does. If you do taoist arts and sciences, you are a taoist. If you talk, read, write, think about taoism, you are a philosophical taoist. If you study cognitive neuroscience, you are a cognitive neuroscient-ist, and if you do brain surgeries, you are a brain surge-on, and if you dance ballet, you are a ballet danc-er, and if you watch it being danced by others, you are a ballet philosopher. It's soooo simple!

Edited June 24, 2007 by Taomeow

[freeform]

My two yuan:

 

I live in an area of Southern California where some people surf. Others like to watch the surfers from a vantage point on the beach. The observers like to talk about the surfers, the waves, the beauty of it, the power of it, the meaning of it all. The surfers -- they just surf. One of them has a bumper sticker on his board that says, "surfing sucks, don't try it."

 

To me, the surfers are "surfers," the observers of the surfers are "philosophical surfers," and the guy who surfs on the board that says "don't try it" is a surfing sage.

 

 

I completely agree, but ofcourse I'd never be able to articulate it in such a witty way - it always delights me how you type 7s make things so fun.

 

I do, however, feel Beancurd may have something more to him/her than 'just' an observer, and that's what I was wondering about...

 

A taoist who says he or she is not a taoist while practicing taoist arts and sciences (not while ism-bashing) is a taoist sage.

 

That makes me a sage!

 

(always dreamed of being a herb )

[beancurdturtle]

My two yuan:

 

I live in an area of Southern California where some people surf. Others like to watch the surfers from a vantage point on the beach. The observers like to talk about the surfers, the waves, the beauty of it, the power of it, the meaning of it all. The surfers -- they just surf. One of them has a bumper sticker on his board that says, "surfing sucks, don't try it."

 

To me, the surfers are "surfers," the observers of the surfers are "philosophical surfers," and the guy who surfs on the board that says "don't try it" is a surfing sage.

Darn! Seems my point has been muddied. Probably because of a misleading word - and perhaps a fuzzy explanation.

 

"Philosophical Taoism" is about living the philosophy (perhaps not the best word) of the Tao de Jing. It's not about philosophizing about what's in the Tao de Jing, and what a zillion other so called taoist masters, scholars, and sages have said. It's about living it - and obviously it's not right for everyone.

 

So hereinafter I will use the phrase "ancient taoist" instead of "philosophical taoist" - that's what the Chinese call it after all. Seems fair enough.

 

Now I'll employ your analogy...

 

Taoist scholars are the folks sitting on the beach - watching, defining, pontificating, and judging it.

 

Taoist practitioners are like the board surfers - taoist arts and sciences are like a surfboard in that they provide a tool to ride it.

 

Ancient taoists are the body surfers - you rarely see them because they just do it without tools, ritual, or rules.

 

Each has it's value.

[Taomeow]

Darn! Seems my point has been muddied. Probably because of a misleading word - and perhaps a fuzzy explanation.

 

"Philosophical Taoism" is about living the philosophy (perhaps not the best word) of the Tao de Jing. It's not about philosophizing about what's in the Tao de Jing, and what a zillion other so called taoist masters, scholars, and sages have said. It's about living it - and obviously it's not right for everyone.

 

So hereinafter I will use the phrase "ancient taoist" instead of "philosophical taoist" - that's what the Chinese call it after all. Seems fair enough.

 

Well, that probably makes you a laoist. It's not a rating system, you know, where one is "higher" or "lower" than the other, "better" or "worse," and a "taoist" ain't no rank (though it used to come with a symbolic exterior to distinguish a taoist from a non-taoist -- "blue robe with scarlet clouds" in the 11th century, e.g., worn only by taoists). Yet it is a traditional thingie, taoism is, and in anything traditional, rules have long been established as to what to call or not to call a practitioner or a non-practitioner of the tradition. In China, if you said you were a "taoist," they would ask you, "which sect have you been accepted into?" It wouldn't matter if you said "philosophical taoism" or "ancient taoism" -- they still wouldn't understand what you mean. If you said, "Celestial Teachers" or "Northern School of Complete Reality" or "Mao-shan magical," then they would get it. This would describe what you do or don't do adequately enough. But "ancient taoism" or "philosophical taoism" does not describe a process, you know... and Chinese is a process-oriented language, where if you say what you "are" without a set of "do" attached to it, you are simply impossible to understand.

 

So... you "do" Laozi? Do you mind elaborating on what it is exactly that you do -- how do you go about living Tao Te Ching? It is a manual for the ruler, you know, a to-do and don't list for the king, the emperor, the general, the overlord, the leader, the father. Are you a boss? Do you practice what Laozi preaches with your subordinates? With your children? With your employees? If you do, I think it's wonderful. If you are not in a superior position in society and in life, however, you practice what those who are expect you to practice. There's no way around it. Tao Te Ching, The Way of Power, doesn't speak to ordinary people, they have no power to begin with... It admonishes the powerful. I wonder why so few people among Laozi's afficionados in the West ever notice it...

 

That makes me a sage!

 

(always dreamed of being a herb )

 

Lemme do your Four Pillars reading, see if you ARE!

Edited June 24, 2007 by Taomeow

[beancurdturtle]

Well, that probably makes you a laoist. It's not a rating system, you know, where one is "higher" or "lower" than the other, "better" or "worse,"

- Uh huh. I'm in 100% agreement. Whatever path that works is the appropriate path.

 

and a "taoist" ain't no rank (though it used to come with a symbolic exterior to distinguish a taoist from a non-taoist -- "blue robe with scarlet clouds" in the 11th century, e.g., worn only by taoists). Yet it is a traditional thingie, taoism is, and in anything traditional, rules have long been established as to what to call or not to call a practitioner or a non-practitioner of the tradition.

- Dao de Jing Chapter 38 speaks to this - about people's fascination with ritual and tradition rather than substance and harmony.

 

In China, if you said you were a "taoist," they would ask you, "which sect have you been accepted into?" It wouldn't matter if you said "philosophical taoism" or "ancient taoism" -- they still wouldn't understand what you mean. If you said, "Celestial Teachers" or "Northern School of Complete Reality" or "Mao-shan magical," then they would get it.

- They would get it within their universe of understanding. "Taoism" in China, and elsewhere for that matter, has been so defined by it's practices, rituals, temples, and etc. that the original values and objectives have been left behind by most.

 

This would describe what you do or don't do adequately enough. But "ancient taoism" or "philosophical taoism" does not describe a process, you know...

- I know.

 

and Chinese is a process-oriented language,

- Largely from the influence of Gongfuzi and the Legalists - who were fascinated with rules. According to some accounts, Laozi thought Gongfuzi was rather silly to be so focused on the trees (abstractions) as to miss the forest (substance).

 

where if you say what you "are" without a set of "do" attached to it, you are simply impossible to understand.

- It is "受理古老道教" - the do is "accepts ancient taoism." The Chinese I know understand it - though most think it's quaint.

 

So... you "do" Laozi? Do you mind elaborating on what it is exactly that you do -- how do you go about living Tao Te Ching? It is a manual for the ruler, you know, a to-do and don't list for the king, the emperor, the general, the overlord, the leader, the father.

- Not solely a manual for a leader. It's about living simply for a regular guy too. Dao de Jing Chapter 80 among others speaks to this. I would say it's more a discussion of values and how to implement them (in the context of the time it was authored).

 

Look past the rules to the values expressed through the actions and you will see what "doing it" is. If your values are clear and appropriate, your integrity is high, and your actions are congruent with your values, then there is no need for rules - you will act rightly.

 

Are you a boss?

- Yes.

 

Do you practice what Laozi preaches with your subordinates?

- Yes.

 

With your children?

- Absolutely. And he is an extraordinary child - I hope in part due to this.

 

With your employees?

- Yes. I'm fortunate to work in an Asian (Japanese) dominated company, so I can get away with it.

 

If you do, I think it's wonderful. If you are not in a superior position in society and in life, however, you practice what those who are expect you to practice. There's no way around it. Tao Te Ching, The Way of Power, doesn't speak to ordinary people, they have no power to begin with...

- Everyone has the capacity to have influence over something or someone else - to be the king of something, if only themselves. How one deals with influence (how they let go of it) is the essence of doing it.

 

It admonishes the powerful. I wonder why so few people among Laozi's afficionados in the West ever notice it...

- No need to wonder. The answer is obvious. Our whole society is about finding ways to gain advantage and power. Most people in our society will find the semantics to twist whatever they can (including the Dao de Jing) to be congruent with their values.

 

Ancient taoism is about understanding the Dao de Jing without abstraction (and with humor if you are Zhuangzi), and actualizing the values in whatever kind of life we have - to live in contentment and harmony. This also means acceptance of all the other 'isms - what works, works.

 

老子:「道德經」:第二章

天下皆知美之为美，斯恶已。

皆知善之为善，斯不善已。

 

有无相生，难易相成，长短相形，

高下相盈，音声相和，前后相随。

恒也。是以圣人处无为之事，

行不言之教﹔万物作而弗始，

 

生而弗有，为而弗恃，功成而不居。

夫唯弗居，是以不去。

 

Laozi: "Dao de Jing": Second chapter

When beauty is abstracted

Then ugliness has been implied;

When good is abstracted

Then evil has been implied.

 

So alive and dead are abstracted from nature,

Difficult and easy abstracted from progress,

Long and short abstracted from contrast,

High and low abstracted from depth,

Song and speech abstracted from melody,

After and before abstracted from sequence.

 

The sage experiences without abstraction,

And accomplishes without action;

He accepts the ebb and flow of things,

Nurtures them, but does not own them,

And lives, but does not dwell.

[fatherpaul]

i was watching a show on the history channel today

it was about the "anti-christ" and the "end of days"

there were those who are totally immersed in this

it is their "belief system", and they exert an influuence,

some really powerfull persons, to this one,

belief is doubt, and just as dangerous.

 

even in "taoism" there were those who held fast to belief.

[beancurdturtle]

even in "taoism" there were those who held fast to belief.

Oh Papa!

 

Why do you goad me thus?

 

老子:「道德经」:第三十八章

上德不德，是以有德﹔

下德不失德，是以无德。

 

上德无为而无以为﹔

下德无为而有以为。

 

上仁为之而无以为﹔

上义为之而有以为。

上礼为之而莫之应，

则攘臂而扔之。

 

故失道而后德，失德而后仁，

失仁而后义，失义而后礼。

 

夫礼者，忠信之薄，而乱之首。

前识者，道之华，而愚之始。

 

是以大丈夫处其厚，不居其薄﹔

处其实，不居其华。故去彼取此。

 

Laozi: "Dao De Jing": 38th chapter

Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;

Closely held beliefs are not easily released;

So ritual enthralls generation after generation.

 

Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;

But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.

 

Harmony neither acts nor reasons;

Love acts, but without reason;

Justice acts to serve reason;

But ritual acts to enforce reason.

 

When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;

When harmony is lost, there remains love;

When love is lost, there remains justice;

And when justice is lost, there remains ritual.

 

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,

The beginning of confusion;

Belief is a colourful hope or fear,

The beginning of folly.

 

The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;

He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;

He accepts substance, and ignores abstraction.

[林愛偉]

道德经 ( Dao De Jing )= Classic(Jing/Ching) of the Way(Dao/Tao) of Morality(De/Te).

 

 

 

Power is just an outcome.

Edited June 24, 2007 by 林愛偉

[beancurdturtle]

道德经 ( Dao De Jing )= Classic(Jing/Ching) of the Way(Dao/Tao) of Morality(De/Te).

Power is just an outcome.

Or something enabled by the process when you let go of enabling it yourself? like karma?

[fatherpaul]

"Oh Papa!

 

Why do you goad me thus?"

 

forgive me

i mearly point out that all so called "taoists"

were not necessarily so "enlightened"

 

the true tao stands alone

thus cannot become part of

a belief system.

 

 

peace

paul

[Spectrum]

Or something enabled by the process when you let go of enabling it yourself? like karma?

 

You'll have just enough when you REALLY need it.

 

My understanding is Karma is the wheel of the law, Dharma is your personal Work. (Buddhist)

[beancurdturtle]

"Oh Papa!

 

Why do you goad me thus?"

 

forgive me

i mearly point out that all so called "taoists"

were not necessarily so "enlightened"

 

the true tao stands alone

thus cannot become part of

a belief system.

peace

paul

I jest.

you goad not.

I understand.