"Nondual" In Buddhadharma

[RongzomFan]

Wow, that is one awesome post. 100% respect for Malcolm there. I was on E-Sangha when it blew up and I've witnessed some evil sectarian stuff on line over the years.

 

I never thought that I would ever read anything like that from him but I completely agree with him on all points there.

 

Gone right up in my respect. Still trying to take it all in....

I was on Esangha too.

 

Evil?

 

You are kidding right?

[RongzomFan]

If anything Esangha was too lenient.

 

I would have banned everyone LOL.

 

[idiot_stimpy]

Settle down dzogchungpa

[adept]

Nice to see that Malcolm is sorry for his past behaviour. I remember him all too well, ruling E-Sangha with an iron fist.

To apologize like that means he deserves respect.

Maybe there's a lesson there for all of us.

[yabyum24]

I would have banned everyone LOL.

But what are you going to do now that Malcolm has abandoned sectarianism?

[RongzomFan]

But what are you going to do now that Malcolm has abandoned sectarianism?

The point of the post is that Advaita Vedanta is a rip off of Madhyamaka.

[Anderson]

I dreamt last night that advaita has apologised for being untruthful

[Jetsun]

The point of the post is that Advaita Vedanta is a rip off of Madhyamaka.

 

Is that really what you think the point of his post is?

 

 

You can find these four seals in Advaita Vedanta as well. Just substitute brahman for nirvana and you have a perfect match. It is very hard to differentiate brahman from nirvana. Really, go ahead and try.

 

I once forced Khenpo Tsultrim Gyatso to admit (I have a witness, incidentally) that there was no substantial difference between Advaita Vedanta and Gzhan stong in terms of how they presented their view. His only response was a sectarian polemic

 

But I am saying that when you study these things, philosophically, at any rate, it is very hard to show the difference between Advaita and Madhyamaka.

 

Whether it is a rip off or not it doesn't matter, what matters is whether it helps people to see the truth about reality. If there really isn't a big difference between Advaita and Madhyamaka then Advaita may be a purer transmission because it isn't mixed up with all the sectarian bs and religious stuff.

[C T]

Whether it is a rip off or not it doesn't matter, what matters is whether it helps people to see the truth about reality. If there really isn't a big difference between Advaita and Madhyamaka then Advaita may be a purer transmission because it isn't mixed up with all the sectarian bs and religious stuff.

You think Madhyamika is that convoluted and tainted by unhelpful stuff?

 

What motivates you to continue holding such a view?

 

What have you put into practice, for what length of time, the comparative studies you have made, to drive you towards such a conclusive stance?

 

The basis of Madhyamika is to expound in greater subtlety the discourses on the Middle Way as taught by Shakyamuni Buddha. If we have not applied ourselves to venture, in greater subtlety, past the external conditions and human errors to get to the essence of the path, then how can we expect to become unstuck -- surely we cannot achieve the Middle Way by merely looking and floundering around on the peripherals where dogma and politics are rife -- to do so we would have made the choice to remain no better than those of whom such observations have been made against.

[gatito]

Is that really what you think the point of his post is?

 

 

 

Whether it is a rip off or not it doesn't matter, what matters is whether it helps people to see the truth about reality. If there really isn't a big difference between Advaita and Madhyamaka then Advaita may be a purer transmission because it isn't mixed up with all the sectarian bs and religious stuff.

 

I think that it's just horses for courses

 

Some people prefer the Buddhist wrapper

 

Some prefer the Advaita wrapper

 

The present is the same (if you'll excuse the pun )

 

(As it is with all true Paths - of which there are as many as there are stars in the sky )

[RongzomFan]

 

Is that really what you think the point of his post is?

 

 

 

Whether it is a rip off or not it doesn't matter, what matters is whether it helps people to see the truth about reality. If there really isn't a big difference between Advaita and Madhyamaka then Advaita may be a purer transmission because it isn't mixed up with all the sectarian bs and religious stuff.

 

1. You only think that because Neoadvaitins want to divorce Advaita Vedanta from Hinduism, just like they divorced yoga from Dharma. Adi Shankara believed in, and wrote about, Vishnu, Krishna etc. Advaita Vedanta is Hindu.

 

2. There are several conflicting "Advaita Vedantas". Some assert liberation is only upon death, while others assert liberation while alive. Some assert the locus of ignorance is within persons, while others assert its within Brahman. And on and on. Read The Essential Vedanta.

Edited December 23, 2013 by RongzomFan

[gatito]

 

 

1. You only think that because Neoadvaitins want to divorce Advaita Vedanta from Hinduism, just like they divorced yoga from Dharma. Adi Shankara believed in, and wrote about, Vishnu, Krishna etc. Advaita Vedanta is Hindu.

 

2. There are several conflicting "Advaita Vedantas". Some assert liberation is only upon death, while others assert liberation while alive. Some assert the locus of ignorance is within persons, while others assert its within Brahman. And on and on. Read The Essential Vedanta.

 

You don't have the faintest idea what Jetsun thinks - you're just projecting your own prejudices onto him.

 

Advaita, Buddhism, Sufism, Taoism, etc. are perennial wisdom and nobody owns them - that's actually the point.

 

Another point, is that what actually matters is do they practically yield results for the person who follows that Path - or not

[Jetsun]

You think Madhyamika is that convoluted and tainted by unhelpful stuff?

 

What motivates you to continue holding such a view?

 

What have you put into practice, for what length of time, the comparative studies you have made, to drive you towards such a conclusive stance?

 

The basis of Madhyamika is to expound in greater subtlety the discourses on the Middle Way as taught by Shakyamuni Buddha. If we have not applied ourselves to venture, in greater subtlety, past the external conditions and human errors to get to the essence of the path, then how can we expect to become unstuck -- surely we cannot achieve the Middle Way by merely looking and floundering around on the peripherals where dogma and politics are rife -- to do so we would have made the choice to remain no better than those of whom such observations have been made against.

 

I don't think it is that tainted, but just from observation it is pretty obvious that a lot of people get stuck in sectarianism and religious trappings rather than what it is pointing at. All that stuff even spreads to westerners on forums who have no business whatsoever getting involved in Tibetan politics. That is pretty much what Malcolm says in that post that he got trapped in all that stuff which is a hindrance to true compassion. Whereas Advaita doesn't have any of that stuff, which is all I mean by it being purer, not that it is better or superior because ultimately I believe they are pointing at the same thing but there are fewer things that you can get stuck on to distract you or fixate on.

[yabyum24]

The point of the post is that Advaita Vedanta is a rip off of Madhyamaka.

Malcolm was being very non-judgmental on the whole topic of other paths. I don't think he was point scoring in any way at all. An amazing post that's for sure.

[Jetsun]

 

 

1. You only think that because Neoadvaitins want to divorce Advaita Vedanta from Hinduism, just like they divorced yoga from Dharma. Adi Shankara believed in, and wrote about, Vishnu, Krishna etc. Advaita Vedanta is Hindu.

 

2. There are several conflicting "Advaita Vedantas". Some assert liberation is only upon death, while others assert liberation while alive. Some assert the locus of ignorance is within persons, while others assert its within Brahman. And on and on. Read The Essential Vedanta.

 

I have no agenda to divorce anything from anything but the teachings can't be owned by any religion because by their nature they are meant to transcend all dividing lines and concepts. If the teachings work they are meant to wake you up out of Hinduism or Buddhism not solidify your identity into such a concept. Also what we are talking about is available to anyone and everyone no matter where you are born or what religion you are, we are talking about the truth of identity and reality for everyone on the planet not some thing which can be owned by a select group of people.

 

I am not very interested in the scholarly approach to this at the moment apart from in passing interest so I doubt I will be reading much, which is why I like the Advaita approach as it isn't about mind stuff it is more about direct embodied experience

[yabyum24]

All that stuff even spreads to westerners on forums who have no business whatsoever getting involved in Tibetan politics. That is pretty much what Malcolm says in that post that he got trapped in all that stuff which is a hindrance to true compassion.

This is unfortunately true. We have a wonderful opportunity to ignore that kind of thing and just take the essence of the teachings and put them into practice. Who knows how much we can all help each other by exchanging our experiences, regardless of the path we're on.

 

One-upmanship is pointless posturing and just causes ill feeling. Buddha himself says in MN22 there are worthless men who "...study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. "

 

That says it all.

[Simple_Jack]

This is unfortunately true. We have a wonderful opportunity to ignore that kind of thing and just take the essence of the teachings and put them into practice. Who knows how much we can all help each other by exchanging our experiences, regardless of the path we're on.

 

Precisely. There are individuals who have already done this or are currently doing this through the medium of the internet; individuals who have direct real world experience that they share among other practitioners who are willing to listen. These same individuals have no problem with distinguishing the views between different traditions either. Some examples here:

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Daniel%20Ingram

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Tommy%20M.

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Kenneth%20Folk

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Alex%20Weith

 

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Rob%20Burbea

[RongzomFan]

You guys are now contradicting yourself.

 

Jetsun said Madhyamaka is tied to religion and sectarianism, but Advaita Vedanta is not.

 

I pointed out that Advaita Vedanta is the one tied to both religion and sectarianism.

Whether it is a rip off or not it doesn't matter, what matters is whether it helps people to see the truth about reality. If there really isn't a big difference between Advaita and Madhyamaka then Advaita may be a purer transmission because it isn't mixed up with all the sectarian bs and religious stuff.

Edited December 24, 2013 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

which is why I like the Advaita approach as it isn't about mind stuff it is more about direct embodied experience

I think you are talking about Mahamudra, not Advaita.

[RongzomFan]

Whereas Advaita doesn't have any of that stuff, which is all I mean by it being purer

I already point outed the several schools of medieval Advaita, and gave a reference.

 

And I already pointed out modern Advaitins attack each other all the time.

[C T]

I already point outed the several schools of medieval Advaita, and gave a reference.

 

And I already pointed out modern Advaitins attack each other all the time.

thats right, you did.

 

but this happens on both sides, sometimes more, other times less.

 

Buddhists 'attack' each other often as well. Every retreat i have been some form of 'attack' takes place. Warring factions, generally being a nuisance, pompousness, intimidation, its quite a joke.

 

It could be different though. It should be.

[idiot_stimpy]

People getting self identified with certain religions and their views...

[RongzomFan]

thats right, you did.

 

but this happens on both sides, sometimes more, other times less.

 

Buddhists 'attack' each other often as well. Every retreat i have been some form of 'attack' takes place. Warring factions, generally being a nuisance, pompousness, intimidation, its quite a joke.

 

It could be different though. It should be.

Come on now.

 

Buddhists, in general, band together.

 

You can't say that with Advaitins.

[idiot_stimpy]

Buddhists, Advaitins, Muslims, Christians, all just labels

[RongzomFan]

Buddhists, Advaitins, Muslims, Christians, all just labels

Jetsun is saying Advaita is superior.