Bernadette Roberts: Christian Contemplative View On Buddhism

[yabyum24]

. Based on what you said above I can only conclude that you've overlooked the subtleties and purpose of Buddhist view and practice.

Seriously not even worth answering that. As of now, you're on ignore.

[Simple_Jack]

Let's try this again, firstly, Malcolm is clueless, secondly (or rather, firstly : ) : -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

 

Yes, this is how to accurately understand this Tantra according to how its taught in Dzogchen:

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

Soh wrote:

"Hi Namdrol,

As you mentioned about Hindu Vedanta... a question came to mind.

I was just reading someone's post half an hour ago in another forum: ( http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1499/page/7?replies=200 ).

He/she ('star') states that according to Dzogchen view, everything is Consciousness, and therefore everything is real.

What is your comment on this?

Also, he/she states 'The Supreme Source' as a reference... in which I also personally have some questions regarding this book: in certain parts of the book, Consciousness is described as an all-creating agent, which sounds like God to me. How does Dependent Origination apply here?"

Malcolm wrote:

"This person has confused the Trika non-dual view with Dzogchen.

The mind that is the all-creating king, as Norbu Rinpoche makes clear, is the mind that does not recognize itself, and so enters into samsara, creating its own experience of samsara.

All conditioned phenomena are a product of ignorance, according to Dzogchen view, and so therefore, everything is not real. The basis of that ignorance is the basis, which is also not established as real.

In Dzogchen, everything is unreal, from top to bottom. The basis, in Dzogchen, is described as being 'empty not established in any way at all'. If the basis is not real, then whatever arises from that basis is not real.

In Dzoghen, dependent origination begins from the non-recognition of the state of the basis, when this happens, one enters into grasping self and other, and then the chain of dependent origination begins.*"

-------------------

And here's someone from your yahoo group having this same conversation with Jean-Luc Achard, obviously his answer was ignored...

? wrote:

"That quote above still can be interpreted the same way. The Kunjed Gyalpo says that there is nothing to do, try, search etc... Because everything is from the Supreme Source, thus perfect. There is not two sources, but one. Then what can possibly be 'perfected' ?"

Jean-Luc Achard wrote:

"Supreme Source is not a Dzogchen concept. I don’t know (well i suspect) why they choosed this title (way too New Age for me) but the original is 'All Creating' (kun-byed, lit. 'All Doing') refering to the mind. So mind creates everything, that’s the meaning, its not a reference to some cosmic source somewhere as it may sound from the english title. What can be perfected? Well one’s deluded mind can be perfected, certainly not the natural state. Nobody said the natural state has to be perfected, it’s one’s ultimate essence, but our ordinary being is not our essence, it is deluded, full of ignorance, and this is what has to be perfected."

*"chain of dependent origination" refers to the specific theory of dependent origination which is the 12 nidanas aka. the 12 links of dependent origination. The general theory of dependent origination is "When this exists, that exists; With the arising of this, that arises; When this does not exist, that does not exist; With the cessation of this, that ceases

 

Malcolm has received Dzogchen teachings from many different Dzogchen teachers, one of which was Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, who was widely regarded as completing all four visions of togal; he was regarded as a living buddha. Now, the above says "The mind that is the all-creating king, as Norbu Rinpoche makes clear, is the mind that does not recognize itself, and so enters into samsara, creating its own experience of samsara."; Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is Malcolm's root guru.

[gatito]

 

Malcolm has received Dzogchen teachings from many different Dzogchen teachers, one of which was Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, who was widely regarded as completing all four visions of togal; he was regarded as a living buddha. Now, the above says "The mind that is the all-creating king, as Norbu Rinpoche makes clear, is the mind that does not recognize itself, and so enters into samsara, creating its own experience of samsara."; Chogyal Namkhai Norbu is Malcolm's root guru.

 

So what - Malcolm completely destroyed Dharma Wheel and then apologised for all the suffering that he caused in his exalted position.

 

He's worthless as authority compared to the Kunjed Gyalpo, so I'll stick with that because the Truth is very simple: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

 

(Nice and simple - now everyone should be able to understand that )

[Simple_Jack]

 

So what - Malcolm completely destroyed Dharma Wheel and then apologised for all the suffering that he caused in his exalted position.

 

He's worthless as authority compared to the Kunjed Gyalpo, so I'll stick with that because the Truth is very simple: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

 

(Nice and simple - now everyone should be able to understand that )

 

Malcolm's reputation is irrelevant to the accurate understanding of the "Kunjed Gyalpo". Now, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is an authority that you can trust since he's been highly regarded, by other masters, as a master of Dzogchen. Yes, I understand you would prefer to rely on an inaccurate translation of the "Kunjed Gyalpo", but seeing as how you have not received transmission and teachings of Dzogchen from a qualified guru: I have to conclude, that you're misapprehending the above translation, according to the confines of your understanding from your background in Advaita. I think it would be best if you received teachings from a qualified (i.e. authorized) guru. In the mean time, you can rely on the words of ChNN, as relayed through Malcolm.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

Malcolm's reputation is irrelevant to the accurate understanding of the "Kunjed Gyalpo". Now, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, is an authority that you can trust since he's been highly regarded, by other masters, as a master of Dzogchen. Yes, I understand you would prefer to rely on an inaccurate translation of the "Kunjed Gyalpo", but seeing as how you have not received transmission and teachings of Dzogchen from a qualified guru: I have to conclude that you're misapprehending the above translation according to the confines of your understanding from your background in Advaita. I think it would be best if you received teachings from a qualified guru. In the mean time, you can rely on the words of ChNN as relayed through Malcolm.

 

Well Simple_Jack, as it happens, you're completely wrong, as usual.

 

I have received transmission and teachings from a qualified guru and, from my own direct knowledge, this is correct: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

[Simple_Jack]

Well Simple_Jack, as it happens, you're completely wrong, as usual.

 

I have received transmission and teachings from a qualified guru and, from my own direct knowledge, this is correct: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

 

Ok, who's your guru? My assertion still stands that you are misconstruing this translation of gzhi according to the confines of your background in Advaita.

[gatito]

Ok, who's your guru? My assertion still stands that you are misconstruing this translation of gzhi according to the confines of your background in Advaita.

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

[Simple_Jack]

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

 

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

THE SUPREME SOURCE

The Kunjed Gyalpo

The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

From the Kunje Gyalpo Tantra: "Kunje Gyalpo declares: I am primordial self-perfection. I am the essence of of the state of self-perfection of all the Buddhas"

Namkhai Norbu writes: "The transmission of knowledge comes from the state of rigpa that has never been stained and has never been hindered. This is AdiBuddha, or the primordial Buddha, Kunje Gyalpo. The state of Kunje Gyalpo is knowledge (rigpa)..."

[Simple_Jack]

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

Malcolm wrote:

In Dzogchen, the realization of emptiness occurs when one accomplishes the third vision. Prior to this, emptiness is merely correct inference. Khenpa Ngachung explains this as one of the superiorities of Dzogchen i.e. that one can discover one's real nature prior to the realization of emptiness. This feature allows one to eradicate the coarse obscurations even while below the path of seeing, where traditionally, in Mahāyāna systems, it is held to be impossible.

---------------------

Jax wrote:

Interesting Malcolm Smith, hadn't heard that. However I can cite many examples that equate realization of Kadag at trekchod with realization of emptiness. Are there even more varying opinions beyond these two?

also trekchod is equated with realization of Mahamudra. Surely you concede Mahamudra realization is also the full realization of emptiness... No?

Malcolm wrote:

Hi Jax:

Realizing treghö and practicing tregchö are two entirely different things. One practices tregchö until realization. The practice of trencho however is only possible when one is free from doubts about one's primordial state i.e. the basis [gzhi].

---------------------

Malcolm wrote:

Tregchö is a practice. It has a result. The practice of Mahāmudra, Lamdre and Tregchö is basically the same i.e. equipoise in an instant of uncontrived awareness.

Jax wrote:

Yes, Malcolm, I know that. But I am saying when the fruit of trekcho view is realized, that is the same as Mahamudra. Since that is the "same" as Mahamudra, and realization of Mahamudra contains the full realization of two-fold emptiness, then trekchod realization contains full realization of two-fold emptiness as well. Hence practice of thogal is not necessary for realization of two-fold emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:

Hi JAx:

No one every said that thogal was necessary for realizing twofold emptiness.

---------------------

Jax wrote:

Is there another emptiness realized beyond two-fold emptiness at the third thogal vision?

Malcolm wrote:

Hi Jax:

No, there is not.

---------------------

Jax wrote:

then the Third Vision of Thogal realization of emptiness is not superior to the two-fold emptiness realized upon realization of Kadag at trekchod?

Malcolm wrote:

The answer to your question is no, it is not superior. The third vision is basically the equivalent of the first bhumi in the sutra system.

However, in tregchö one does not eradicated the coarse obscurations prior to realization of emptiness.

[Simple_Jack]

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

"There is not object to investigate within the view of self-originated wisdom: nothing went before, nothing happens later, nothing is present now at all. Action does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Discriminating wisdom does not exist. Samsara does not exist. Nirvana does not exist. Even vidyā itself does not exist i.e. nothing at all appears in wisdom. That arose from not grasping anything."

- from The Unwritten Tantra

[Seeker of Wisdom]

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

There is no absolute consciousness in Buddhism, consciousness is dependently originated and compounded (eye, ear, etc).

 

What is being referred to here is the innate luminosity of consciousness - which is the ground of experience, not an ontological basis - which has to be understood in tandem with emptiness.

 

All experience is of one taste with the luminosity of consciousness, but that consciousness is a D.O. arregation.

 

To exist is to be of one taste with sheer primordially pure vividness beyond conceptual elaboration, but that doesn't mean anything exists by itself substantially without causes, as that vividness is the hallmark of consciousness, which is empty and D.O'd

[Simple_Jack]

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

Malcolm wrote:

In Dzogchen, the realization of emptiness occurs when one accomplishes the third vision. Prior to this, emptiness is merely correct inference. Khenpa Ngachung explains this as one of the superiorities of Dzogchen i.e. that one can discover one's real nature prior to the realization of emptiness. This feature allows one to eradicate the coarse obscurations even while below the path of seeing, where traditionally, in Mahāyāna systems, it is held to be impossible.

---------------------

Jax wrote:

Interesting Malcolm Smith, hadn't heard that. However I can cite many examples that equate realization of Kadag at trekchod with realization of emptiness. Are there even more varying opinions beyond these two?

also trekchod is equated with realization of Mahamudra. Surely you concede Mahamudra realization is also the full realization of emptiness... No?

Malcolm wrote:

Hi Jax:

Realizing treghö and practicing tregchö are two entirely different things. One practices tregchö until realization. The practice of trencho however is only possible when one is free from doubts about one's primordial state i.e. the basis [gzhi].

---------------------

Malcolm wrote:

Tregchö is a practice. It has a result. The practice of Mahāmudra, Lamdre and Tregchö is basically the same i.e. equipoise in an instant of uncontrived awareness.

Jax wrote:

Yes, Malcolm, I know that. But I am saying when the fruit of trekcho view is realized, that is the same as Mahamudra. Since that is the "same" as Mahamudra, and realization of Mahamudra contains the full realization of two-fold emptiness, then trekchod realization contains full realization of two-fold emptiness as well. Hence practice of thogal is not necessary for realization of two-fold emptiness.

Malcolm wrote:

Hi JAx:

No one every said that thogal was necessary for realizing twofold emptiness.

---------------------

Jax wrote:

Is there another emptiness realized beyond two-fold emptiness at the third thogal vision?

Malcolm wrote:

Hi Jax:

No, there is not.

---------------------

Jax wrote:

then the Third Vision of Thogal realization of emptiness is not superior to the two-fold emptiness realized upon realization of Kadag at trekchod?

Malcolm wrote:

The answer to your question is no, it is not superior. The third vision is basically the equivalent of the first bhumi in the sutra system.

However, in tregchö one does not eradicated the coarse obscurations prior to realization of emptiness.

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

"There is not object to investigate within the view of self-originated wisdom: nothing went before, nothing happens later, nothing is present now at all. Action does not exist. Traces do not exist. Ignorance does not exist. Mind does not exist. Discriminating wisdom does not exist. Samsara does not exist. Nirvana does not exist. Even vidyā itself does not exist i.e. nothing at all appears in wisdom. That arose from not grasping anything."

- from The Unwritten Tantra

 

Bump.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

 

Yes, this is how to accurately understand this Tantra according to how its taught in Dzogchen:

 

http://dharmaconnectiongroup.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-all-creating-king-and-implications.html

 

Soh wrote:

"Hi Namdrol,

As you mentioned about Hindu Vedanta... a question came to mind.

I was just reading someone's post half an hour ago in another forum: ( http://collectionofthoughts.com/bbpress/topic/1499/page/7?replies=200 ).

He/she ('star') states that according to Dzogchen view, everything is Consciousness, and therefore everything is real.

What is your comment on this?

Also, he/she states 'The Supreme Source' as a reference... in which I also personally have some questions regarding this book: in certain parts of the book, Consciousness is described as an all-creating agent, which sounds like God to me. How does Dependent Origination apply here?"

Malcolm wrote:

"This person has confused the Trika non-dual view with Dzogchen.

The mind that is the all-creating king, as Norbu Rinpoche makes clear, is the mind that does not recognize itself, and so enters into samsara, creating its own experience of samsara.

All conditioned phenomena are a product of ignorance, according to Dzogchen view, and so therefore, everything is not real. The basis of that ignorance is the basis, which is also not established as real.

In Dzogchen, everything is unreal, from top to bottom. The basis, in Dzogchen, is described as being 'empty not established in any way at all'. If the basis is not real, then whatever arises from that basis is not real.

In Dzoghen, dependent origination begins from the non-recognition of the state of the basis, when this happens, one enters into grasping self and other, and then the chain of dependent origination begins.*"

-------------------

And here's someone from your yahoo group having this same conversation with Jean-Luc Achard, obviously his answer was ignored...

? wrote:

"That quote above still can be interpreted the same way. The Kunjed Gyalpo says that there is nothing to do, try, search etc... Because everything is from the Supreme Source, thus perfect. There is not two sources, but one. Then what can possibly be 'perfected' ?"

Jean-Luc Achard wrote:

"Supreme Source is not a Dzogchen concept. I don’t know (well i suspect) why they choosed this title (way too New Age for me) but the original is 'All Creating' (kun-byed, lit. 'All Doing') refering to the mind. So mind creates everything, that’s the meaning, its not a reference to some cosmic source somewhere as it may sound from the english title. What can be perfected? Well one’s deluded mind can be perfected, certainly not the natural state. Nobody said the natural state has to be perfected, it’s one’s ultimate essence, but our ordinary being is not our essence, it is deluded, full of ignorance, and this is what has to be perfected."

*"chain of dependent origination" refers to the specific theory of dependent origination which is the 12 nidanas aka. the 12 links of dependent origination. The general theory of dependent origination is "When this exists, that exists; With the arising of this, that arises; When this does not exist, that does not exist; With the cessation of this, that ceases

 

Bump.

[gatito]

There is no absolute consciousness in Buddhism, consciousness is dependently originated and compounded (eye, ear, etc).

 

What is being referred to here is the innate luminosity of consciousness - which is the ground of experience, not an ontological basis - which has to be understood in tandem with emptiness.

 

All experience is of one taste with the luminosity of consciousness, but that consciousness is a D.O. arregation.

 

To exist is to be of one taste with sheer primordially pure vividness beyond conceptual elaboration, but that doesn't mean anything exists by itself substantially without causes, as that vividness is the hallmark of consciousness, which is empty and D.O'd

 

That's an interesting position but I actually proved conclusively that absolute Consciousness does exist in the higher Buddhist teachings by quoting the Kunjed Gyalpo earlier in this thread.

 

In order to take up less space in this thread and to save you the necessity of refering back you can refer to my my signature below.

[Simple_Jack]

There is no absolute consciousness in Buddhism, consciousness is dependently originated and compounded (eye, ear, etc).

 

What is being referred to here is the innate luminosity of consciousness - which is the ground of experience, not an ontological basis - which has to be understood in tandem with emptiness.

 

The basis has 3 aspects which are ka dag [primordial purity], lhun grub [spontaneous perfection], and the inseparability of the two as thugs rje [compassion]. Ka dag corresponds to emptiness in sutrayana.

 

That's an interesting position but I actually proved conclusively that absolute Consciousness does exist in the higher Buddhist teachings by quoting the Kunjed Gyalpo earlier in this thread.

 

In order to take up less space in this thread and to save you the necessity of refering back you can refer to my my signature below.

 

It doesn't matter in the end because this is conceptual according to Dzogchen. Anything that arises is by definition avidya i.e. ignorance according to Dzogchen. Like I said in another thread: Longchenpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, are one of the few, who consider the view of emptiness in Dzogchen and Prasangika Madhyamaka as equivalent; albeit the latter is considered as an intellectual view. Togal is the actual path of Dzogchen.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

The basis has 3 aspects which are ka dag [primordial purity], lhun grub [spontaneous perfection], and the inseparability of the two as thugs rje [compassion]. Ka dag corresponds to emptiness in sutrayana.

 

 

It doesn't matter in the end because this is conceptual according to Dzogchen. Anything that arises is by definition avidya i.e. ignorance according to Dzogchen. Like I said in another thread: Longchenpa and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, are one of the few, who consider the view of emptiness in Dzogchen and Prasangika Madhyamaka as equivalent; albeit the latter is considered as an intellectual view. Togal is the actual path of Dzogchen.

 

Even though my nature is fundamental reality that transcends meditation, the teachers of the three dimensions teach

cause and effect in order to conform to the principle of causality that governs the world. They explain that an effect

must necessarily manifest from a cause, and to this end they teach diverse meditation methods.

 

Even though the fundamental nature, pure and total consciousness, is one alone, [the sravakas and

pratyekabuddhas] speak of the four noble truths concerning suffering and its origin. Affirming that the origin of

suffering is the cause of rebirth in the three lower states, they forsake the fundamental nature that is pure and total

consciousness. Thus, not understanding the fundamental nature, they forsake it.

 

Even though the fundamental nature is pure and total consciousness, [the Bodhisattvas] speak of the two truths:

absolute and relative, and on this basis they apply the ten paramitas, starting with generosity and morality, to tread

gradually the ten levels of realization. Thus, not understanding the fundamental nature, they remain at the level of

training.

 

Even though the fundamental nature is pure and total consciousness, [followers of the kriya] speak of the propitious

moment, selected on the basis of planets and constellations, for starting to practice the five factors of realization and

the four miraculous actions. In this manner they empower the whole of existence and meditate on it in the form of the

deity. Thus, however, they do not understand the true nature of their own minds which is beyond meditating.

 

Kunjed Gyalpo - Translated by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

[Simple_Jack]

Even though my nature is fundamental reality that transcends meditation, the teachers of the three dimensions teach

cause and effect in order to conform to the principle of causality that governs the world. They explain that an effect

must necessarily manifest from a cause, and to this end they teach diverse meditation methods.

 

Even though the fundamental nature, pure and total consciousness, is one alone, [the sravakas and

pratyekabuddhas] speak of the four noble truths concerning suffering and its origin. Affirming that the origin of

suffering is the cause of rebirth in the three lower states, they forsake the fundamental nature that is pure and total

consciousness. Thus, not understanding the fundamental nature, they forsake it.

 

Even though the fundamental nature is pure and total consciousness, [the Bodhisattvas] speak of the two truths:

absolute and relative, and on this basis they apply the ten paramitas, starting with generosity and morality, to tread

gradually the ten levels of realization. Thus, not understanding the fundamental nature, they remain at the level of

training.

 

Even though the fundamental nature is pure and total consciousness, [followers of the kriya] speak of the propitious

moment, selected on the basis of planets and constellations, for starting to practice the five factors of realization and

the four miraculous actions. In this manner they empower the whole of existence and meditate on it in the form of the

deity. Thus, however, they do not understand the true nature of their own minds which is beyond meditating.

 

Kunjed Gyalpo - Translated by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

 

 

Actually translated by Andriano Clemente from Italian into English, but my assertion still stands that you are relying on an inaccurate translation to affirm this according to the confines of your background in Advaita. This is a seminal tantra of Dzogchen, but in the end this is a semde tantra. The actual path of Dzogchen is togal which is the reserve of the menngagde class of Dzogchen tantras.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

Actually translated by Adriano Clemente from Italian into English, but my assertion still stands that you are relying on an inaccurate translation to affirm this according to the confines of your background in Advaita. This is a seminal tantra of Dzogchen, but in the end this is a semde tantra. The actual path of Dzogchen is togal.

 

That's very, very funny!

 

It's astonishing that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu hasn't realised this and taken his vile misrepresentation of the buddhadharma out of circulation

 

So, according to Simple_Jack, the correct translation of: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

is............?

 

And the teranslator of the correct version is......?

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

"Pure and total consciousness, the supreme source" is referring to gzhi i.e. the basis. ChNN usually translates this in his webcasts as the 'Base'.

 

So firstly, there's an underlying nondual basis.

 

Secondly, you can't provide another (accurate - according to Simple_Jack and/or Malcolm Smith) translation of: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

In that case, I guess we'll all lumbered with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's actual official version for now.

 

Oddly, it also alighns exactly with the teachings of Advaita Vedanta

 

Hmm..........the two most prominent and oldest spiritual traditions actually agree with each other.......

 

That's just bizarre

[Simple_Jack]

So firstly, there's an underlying nondual basis.

 

Secondly, you can't provide another (accurate - according to Simple_Jack and/or Malcolm Smith) translation of: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

According to your interpretation which in the end is conceptual according to Dzogchen. Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen aren't that old [strictly speaking on a textual basis] compared to other Eastern traditions.

 

 

In that case, I guess we'll all lumbered with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's actual official version for now.

 

Well, you are quoting a translation of a translation from ChNN, it makes sense that we discuss how ChNN translates this into English himself.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

According to your interpretation which in the end is conceptual according to Dzogchen. Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen aren't that old compared to other Eastern traditions.

 

 

 

Well, you are quoting a translation of a translation from ChNN, it makes sense that we discuss how ChNN translates this into English himself.

 

No....no......no......

 

You're not getting away with tangential transactions at this juncture.

 

You've stated that: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!

From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

is an incorrect translation, so we'll stick with that point - no changing the subject/diverting attention elsewhere.

 

Where's the accurate translation Simple_Jack.......?

 

Who is the translator of you accurate version........?

[Simple_Jack]

So firstly, there's an underlying nondual basis....

 

Malcolm wrote:

 

Nyibum* states:

 

As such, because the basis, one’s unfabricated mind, arose as the essence of reality of a single nature, there is no need to search elsewhere for the place etc., i.e. it is called self-originated wisdom.

 

The basis is nothing more nor nothing less this.

 

*the son of Zhang stong Chobar, the terton of the Vima Nyinthig

 

Malcolm wrote:

Yes, I believe so. So basically, all that fancy Dzogchen lingo about the basis and so on is really just talking about a mind stream that is proposed to have a primordial start point which is completely free of proliferation.

 

We can trust Nyibum about this because his father invented/revealed the Nyinthig tradition and he himself was a great scholar who studied widely.

 

Malcolm wrote:

I prefer to put my faith in the guy whose father started the whole Nyinthig thing.And what is says is verified in many Dzogchen tantras, both from the bodhcitta texts as well as others.

 

The basis is not a backdrop. Everything is not separate from the basis. But that everything just means your own skandhas, dhātus and āyatanas. There is no basis outside your mind, just as there is no Buddhahood outside of your mind.

 

Or as the Great Garuda has it when refuting Madhyamaka:

 

Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,

there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon”.

 

An 12th century commentary on this text states (but not this passage):

 

Amazing bodhicitta (the identity of everything that becomes the basis of pursuing the meaning that cannot be seen nor realized elsewhere than one’s vidyā) is wholly the wisdom of the mind distinct as the nine consciousnesses that lack a nature.

 

In the end, Dzogchen is really just another Buddhist meditative phenomenology of the mind and person and that is all.

 

Malcolm wrote:

Because these things are regarded as afflictive, whereas Dzogchen is trying to describe the person in his or her originally nonafflictive condition. It really is just that simple. The so called general basis is a universal derived from the particulars of persons. That is why it is often mistaken for a transpersonal entity. But Dzogchen, especially man ngag sde is very grounded in Buddhist Logic, and one should know that by definition universals are considered to be abstractions and non-existents in Buddhism, and Dzogchen is no exception.

 

Malcolm wrote:

It's your own rigpa, not a transpersonal rigpa, being a function of your own mind. That mind is empty.

 

Malcolm wrote:

Rigpa is just knowing, the noetic quality of a mind. That is all it is.

 

Malcolm wrote:

The distinction is crucial. If this distinction is not made, Dzogchen sounds like Vedanta.

 

 

Who is the translator of you accurate version........?

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[gatito]

So, Simple_Jack can only assert that:

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!
From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

is an inaccurate translation of the Kunjed Gyalpo

 

He cannot actually provide an accurate translation, nor can Malcolm Smith.

 

The best that Simple-Jack can come up with is to provide quotes from Malcolm Smith who has re-interpreted a clear and simple statement that completely demolishes the main stumbling blocks of Buddhist dogma, anatta and dependent origination - which, incidentally are useful tools in the right hands and which also exist within the teachings of Advaita Vedanta.

 

I think that I'm done here now because if anyone readingh this doesn't get it now, they never will: -

 

"Listen, great being, to what I am explaining to you!
From the beginning, pure and total consciousness, the supreme source, abides in the authentic all-transcending condition; however, the various traditions with their views are not able to relax in it."

 

Dependent origination and anatta are provisional truths that are to be applied to specific stumbling blocks that occur in some (but not all) aspirants. Once they have done their job they are thrown away. The thorn has removed another thorn - best not to leave it/them sticking in your flesh to cause ongoing suffering/stress.

 

Buddhism is nondual.

[gatito]

And to really nail it: -

 

Malcolm wrote:

The distinction is crucial. If this distinction is not made, Dzogchen sounds like Vedanta.

 

Of course it does.........because they're both nondual