Bernadette Roberts: Christian Contemplative View On Buddhism

[Yascra]

I found this book helpful and also well written as a guide to the ngondro

 

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Happiness-So-Called-Preliminary-Practices/dp/1611800307/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393681408&sr=8-1&keywords=not+for+happiness

 

Not for Happiness? by Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse ... who is the Bhutanese Rinpoche who is also a film maker ....the Cup, Travellers and Magicians and so on.

 

Yes, liked that one, too, when I was doing that stuff

 

Anyway, I lacked positive guidance within this system, and yes, as you mentioned, sometimes western practicioners of it are difficult and not very wise in their views and behaviour, and in the way they deal with this "foreign" system.

I practiced Ngondro until I found out by own experience what it was good for .. and since then I'm trying to cope with the effects that happen when you do what it is good for.

 

So @CT, though once due to one posting in which I asked you what you consider preliminaries, I well have experiences with Ngondro and know about it. But actually, Ngondro is just one form of preliminary practices, used in this particular system.

I mention that here as, thereby a little bit bTT, I started with preliminaries of Christian cultivation in this life, which has the same effect, but a different method. Doing preliminary work is a general step in every kind of spiritual cultivation, so it's quite fair to ask which system one refers to if you use that term .. So I'd ask you to let go of your wrong notion that I don't know what Ngondro is, and stop getting angry whenever you read posts by me just because you've drawn some wrong conclusions in former discussions.

Thanks in advance

Edited March 1, 2014 by Yascra

[Jeff]

If there is a struggle to form a bond with a human Guru, we have the option of choosing a symbolic root Guru. Some people use photos, holy objects, etc. Human gurus are not 'must haves'. You are right, the Guru is just a representation of the enlightened principle of inherent buddha nature, which, as Apech mentioned, is something we train in by using the generation, completion and dedication of merit practices which is the Ngondro path.

 

A guru is definitely a representation of inherent Buddha nature, but a realized guru is also a physical manifestation of Buddha nature. Such a manifestation radiates and touches the heart, making such a guru bond much easier.

[Simple_Jack]

I also agree, yet at the same time it can't hurt to study the pāramitāyāna and so on, it certainly helped to deepen my understanding of the system of Dzogchen, and deterred any proclivities of possibly deviating into eternalist dogma.

 

The reality is that the average person, who attends retreats and teachings at Dharma centers, are not likely going to have a comprehensive understanding of the principles which underlie these teachings.

 

What many people tend to overlook, is the benefits of study that are carried over to the next life, that is if they buy into the possibility of rebirth in the first place; Sakya Pandita, in his "Precious Treasury of Elegant Sayings":

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/33573-precious-treasury-of-elegant-sayings/

 

Acquire knowledge though you may die next year.

Although in this life you may not become wise,

In your future birth, if taken with you,

It will become a precious thing.

 

Of course, it's really only necessary for teachers, scholars, and translators to have an in depth comprehension of Buddhist tenet systems.

 

As for deviation from the 'View', I think that any sincere practitioner will eventually experience the insights into "I AM" and Brahman, yet as in the example of the case of Daniel Ingram (of MCTB/dharmaoverground), since he was solely employing vipassana: he bypassed those insights altogether towards realization of anatta, and didn't experience the clarity aspect of "I AM" until a later point since he wasn't focusing on that; of course it wasn't reified since he already had insight into the 3 seals (anicca, dukkha, anatta). As for myself, I know if I didn't come across the teachings of dependent origination, etc., I would've been stuck reifying appearances for who knows how long; then again, it wasn't until a later point, that I got started in Vajrayana.

 

ASTNS, get this post as of yesterday:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=15699&start=20

 

Malcolm wrote: I have wavered on this over the years, as I have in so many other things, but my present thinking is that all Vajrayāna practitioners of whatever stripe need a solid grounding in Hinayāna and Mahāyāna paths.

 

Edited March 1, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Yascra]

It baffles me how some teachers (presumably in the US) actually tell their students to forget about Ngondro. New initiates at that. Strange advice if you ask me. Never heard similar encouragement being given here in Europe. If anyone has, i'd be interested to hear.

 

Oh, I did indeed hear some teachings that completely contradict virtues and others that discourage practice.

But unfortunately, as a Western lay practicioner, you're not allowed to criticize a Tibetan guy who is per definition the holy person, sitting on his throne. It's a teaching, right, and not a discussion .. and the point on which I realized that I am really not welcome with advice or thoughts at such places was the point on which I made the decision to safe my time and practice at home.

Actually it is service from my side when I visit buddhist centres, I'm really getting along with spiritual practice and teachings better than some monastic people do. But well, people want to have Tibetans to teach, even if the latter teach shit, so let them have the guidance they want and maybe deserve. I'm really sorry for that, but what can you do about it. If you're not welcome, you're not welcome - full stop. What people are interested in is usually money.. and that's of which I really don't have to offer so much.

Well, great disappointment to me, this whole stuff.

[Yascra]

A guru is definitely a representation of inherent Buddha nature, but a realized guru is also a physical manifestation of Buddha nature. Such a manifestation radiates and touches the heart, making such a guru bond much easier.

 

Aye, that's one of the key points.

Yes, if I believe someone to be a Buddha, as a complete beginner, that might help me, no matter what this person has realized.

 

But..

.. once you have the eyes to see that someone lacks realization, how could you depend on such a person to guide you? That's like having learned how to manage money yourself, and then give it to a stranger on the street who has less experience in working with it than you yourself. Ridiculous. Especially if those guys draw the conclusion that sitting on a throne automatically makes them a holy person, or compensates for a lack of own realization.

If I see that someone's blind I shouldn't close my eyes and ask him to help me cross the street. Simple as that.. difficult as that when there are expectations.

 

And yes, it doesn't mean that none of these guys have helped others.. though few of them due to altruistic motivation. But it's really funny to hear someone talk about the properties a guru should have who completely lacks this requirements, and then see him expect you to bow before him.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Yascra

[Jeff]

Aye, that's one of the key points.

Yes, if I believe someone to be a Buddha, as a complete beginner, that might help me, no matter what this person has realized.

 

But..

.. once you have the eyes to see that someone lacks realization, how could you depend on such a person to guide you? That's like having learned how to manage money yourself, and then give it to a stranger on the street who has less experience in working with it than you yourself. Ridiculous. Especially if those guys draw the conclusion that sitting on a throne automatically makes them a holy person, or compensates for a lack of own realization.

If I see that someone's blind I shouldn't close my eyes and ask him to help me cross the street. Simple as that.. difficult as that when there are expectations.

 

And yes, it doesn't mean that none of these guys have helped others.. though few of them due to altruistic motivation. But it's really funny to hear someone talk about the properties a guru should have who completely lacks this requirements, and then see him expect you to bow before him.

 

I agree that it is very difficult to find a true "living" guru. But, they do exist in the world and often where you least expect them.

 

Also, I have found that often we find not our "ultimate" guru in the world, but that the world provides us the guru for the next step on our path. But, when you are ready and find your true guru, your heart will leap & sing, and you will know. A true guru connects at the heart.

 

(And for those who notice light/energy flows, you will be blown away)

 

Best wishes.

[Simple_Jack]

It baffles me how some teachers (presumably in the US) actually tell their students to forget about Ngondro. New initiates at that. Strange advice if you ask me. Never heard similar encouragement being given here in Europe. If anyone has, i'd be interested to hear.

 

ChNN, does not say to his students "Don't do ngondro", he just does not find it completely necessary to prescribe that people complete or engage in ngondro before receiving direct introduction in order to practice Dzogchen teachings; presumably because he already transmits ati guru yoga (which is indispensable in the DC), Dzogchen preliminaries of semzin and rushan, etc. Many of his students also come from backgrounds in one of the 4 main lineages of Tibetan Buddhism.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Buddhists talk not so much about faith but confidence - that is over a period of time you practice and study and feel the benefit of dharma so it is a genuine feeling of appreciation and so on - and not a contrived feeling of this how you ought to feel. I think its a problem of westerners.

 

Actually, 'faith' i.e. shradda/sadda, is one of 5 faculties in the 37 factors of awakening which is repeated as one of 5 powers conducive towards liberation. Westerners could potentially misconstrue this as meaning blind faith.

[Apech]

Actually, 'faith' i.e. shradda/sadda, is one of 5 faculties in the 37 factors of awakening which is repeated as one of 5 powers conducive towards liberation. Westerners could potentially misconstrue this as meaning blind faith.

 

 

Yes this is what I have seen translated as confidence to make the distinction with blind faith ... of the Judeo-Christian kind i.e. the idea it is necessary BELIEVE before anything else. Whereas confidence indicates a kind of growing certainty based on experience.

[Yascra]

I agree that it is very difficult to find a true "living" guru. But, they do exist in the world and often where you least expect them.

 

Also, I have found that often we find not our "ultimate" guru in the world, but that the world provides us the guru for the next step on our path. But, when you are ready and find your true guru, your heart will leap & sing, and you will know. A true guru connects at the heart.

 

(And for those who notice light/energy flows, you will be blown away)

 

Best wishes.

 

Totally agree on that point with the "next step", and I'm thankful for every of those kind of teachers I've met so far. Though most of them even lacked the power to say goodbye in a positive way, which I am sorry for, but which is again something that's not my decision.

 

Best wishes also to you, thanks

Edited March 1, 2014 by Yascra

[Apech]

Totally agree on that point with the "next step", and I'm thankful for every of those kind of teachers I've met so far. Though most of them even lacked the power to say goodbye in a positive way, which I am sorry for, but which is again something that's not my decision.

 

Best wishes also to you, thanks

 

 

You seem to have had some bad experience with teachers. Thinking back, I have had some meaningful interaction with five Tibetan lamas and one English one. They were all without exception open, kind, undemonstrative, helpful and wise. Some of them liked the Tibetan etiquette ... white scarves and bowing and others didn't bother much ... but that was just trappings and made no difference to how they were. I think I must have been lucky.

 

I think like with all human relationships it takes a while for a relationship to develop. Most important, take care of yourself first - be selfish in that sense. Just see if its working for you and if not walk away and try something else.

[yabyum24]

It all comes down to the situation you find yourself in personally, and being realistic about it. I had some good teachers in the early years but none of them could ever be construed as gurus. Now I have a few associates but no physical teacher, so direct experience in and out of meditation is (by default) my actual guide/refuge.

[C T]

Yes, liked that one, too, when I was doing that stuff

 

Anyway, I lacked positive guidance within this system, and yes, as you mentioned, sometimes western practicioners of it are difficult and not very wise in their views and behaviour, and in the way they deal with this "foreign" system.

I practiced Ngondro until I found out by own experience what it was good for .. and since then I'm trying to cope with the effects that happen when you do what it is good for.

 

So @CT, though once due to one posting in which I asked you what you consider preliminaries, I well have experiences with Ngondro and know about it. But actually, Ngondro is just one form of preliminary practices, used in this particular system.

I mention that here as, thereby a little bit bTT, I started with preliminaries of Christian cultivation in this life, which has the same effect, but a different method. Doing preliminary work is a general step in every kind of spiritual cultivation, so it's quite fair to ask which system one refers to if you use that term .. So I'd ask you to let go of your wrong notion that I don't know what Ngondro is, and stop getting angry whenever you read posts by me just because you've drawn some wrong conclusions in former discussions.

Thanks in advance

Sorry, im not very clear about this point... you said you practiced Ngondro, right? Then you said you found out by experience what it was good for, yes? (Not sure if you were being cynical here). Then you said that since the practice which you did and found that it was good for something (which was not specified) that now you have to cope with the after-effects of having done the practice? Please help to clarify what was said, Yascra. Also interested to ask: How long did you engage with the Ngondro practice, like how many accumulations roughly? The Ngondro is not considered complete until at least the first round of accumulations are completed, which takes about 3 to 5 years outside of retreat, if im not mistaken. In full retreat it takes about 1 year, but i think this varies from school to school.

 

As for your assumption towards the end of your post, well, i do not recall that there was any reference made to your lack of knowledge about the Ngondro, and if you had caught some whiff of it somewhere, then you might want to specify where you caught it.

 

Finally, the (false seeing of) anger is only a reflection of your own issues around some unpleasant encounters you have had while engaging yourself with Vajrayana. Its really pointless to get angry over forum postings, but you would probably have your own take on this, so let it be. Im not gonna to-and-fro with you on this.

 

For what its worth, i can totally see where you are coming from. I have personally seen, and have heard from sources, of some unsavoury activities over the years involving teachers, so i am not discounting any of your frustrations. The only thing i find is that hanging on to the past is purposeless cos all we end up doing is trying to seek resolution thru blame, which is like poisoning the self in the hope of neutralizing the seeming injustice which happened. It wont work. Its not my place to advice you, so please try not to read anything negative into what has been said.

 

Oh, one last point: we are specifically discussing the preliminary practice of Vajrayana Ngondro here. Not any other preliminary practices of other traditions.

 

Edit to add: If there are any more assumptions you would like to put forward, please feel free to pm. Its not nice to encroach on this thread any more than it already has.

Edited March 1, 2014 by C T

[Yascra]

Oh, one last point: we are specifically discussing the preliminary practice of Vajrayana Ngondro here. Not any other preliminary practices of other traditions.

 

Edit to add: If there are any more assumptions you would like to put forward, please feel free to pm. Its not nice to encroach on this thread any more than it already has.

First two quoted sentences - yes, that might be the problem.

 

Sorry, as far as I see it you are to a high degree more or less repeating what is "officially taught", and seem to invest little energy on the trial to understand the content of what I write, and more focus on words you don't like, and I don't see how PMs would help with this, so let's just let it be, I'm not interested in any kind of religious war or fights.

 

And yes, this thread is not the right place for this, too

 

Have a nice evening anyway

 

Edit: And no, as far as I remember I was not being cynical. Being cynical is based on a mindset that's usually anything but positive, so in few cases it can be funny, but I tend to avoid it

Edited March 1, 2014 by Yascra

[C T]

Have a nice evening anyway

 

You too, Yascra.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Actually translated by Andriano Clemente from Italian into English, but my assertion still stands that you are relying on an inaccurate translation to affirm this according to the confines of your background in Advaita. This is a seminal tantra of Dzogchen, but in the end this is a semde tantra. The actual path of Dzogchen is togal which is the reserve of the menngagde class of Dzogchen tantras.

Hi S J,

I'm having a hard time understanding all this. Many times in this thread you've referred to Gatito's background in Advaita, almost like it is a disease.

 

Yet you yourself seem to have a background in Advaita Vedanta.

 

This I conclude after reading this post of yours..

 

'Simple_Jack', on 25 Oct 2012 - 10:07, said:

LOL, I just happened to be on TTB's killing some time when I saw this thread.

 

Hmmm, the transmission....I"ve attended ChNN WWT's and I received a direct introduction [to the nature of mind] by a Nyingma lama (it was more a "shaktipat" style of transmission) and to be honest: It;s nothing special. If you already have the stabilized presence of the experience of Atman /Brahman: Then, it's not going to do anything more for you. Unless you contemplate the selflessness of experience.....IME, that is.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/25243-my-experiences-with-sadhguru-isha-inner-engineering-and-bsp/?p=368512

 

So I'm wondering how you would reconcile those statements with your current Buddhist position. Have you really realized the atman/Brahman as you have implied in your post, or were you just pulling our legs?

 

[Simple_Jack]

I was just pulling everyone's legs.