Selfless acts ?

[Nungali]

What is a selfless act? Really, don't we do what we want to do in any case?

I worked in a lot of 'shit' jobs that helped people, they were shit as I could have been down the beach or blasting the Triumph down the coast road.

Yeah ... altruistic. But I could have got a better job.

We do what we do because we want to do it ... don't we?

Even if part of us feels it is a self-less act purely to assist or help another ... that is what we wanted to do.

Unless somehow we are being forced into it, like slavery, or being overpowered or oppressed, but aside from that I mean.

 

A Hare Krishna guy tried to convince me otherwise ... I am a devotee, he said, its not for me its for Krishna, its very hard, up at 4am chanting and cooking. But when I quizzed him he had to admit he enjoyed it ... it was great, and being a bit of a philosopher, he did have to concede to my point ... he was doing it as that is what he wanted to do.

Oh, yeah, we bitch and complain (or not ) , we cant afford it , we should be looking after ourselves more. But we are basically self - ish .

The comment was made that Mother Teresa was selfish, I agree.

There is no dis involved here ... it might be a little confronting putting it the way I do ..... but am I wrong ?

Edited December 20, 2013 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

A Hare Krishna guy tried to convince me otherwise ... I am a devotee, he said, its not for me its for Krishna, its very hard, up at 4am chanting and cooking. But when I quizzed him he had to admit he enjoyed it ... it was great, and being a bit of a philosopher, he did have to concede to my point ... he was doing it as that is what he wanted to do.

 

You're not wrong.

 

I like a life of ease.

...

[C T]

...

 

You're not wrong.

 

I like a life of ease.

...

If everything you do, based off a sincere wish that others can be as happy as you are, without even the slightest tinge of envy, greed, jealousy or remorse, then a life of ease is guaranteed. If not this life, definitely some life down the way.

 

It may not be what you expected, though.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Not really.

 

But I think that is just because I have been overdoing it lately and am a little burned out.

 

I seem to recall a time that I did enjoy it.

 

My HGA is a slavedriver some months, heh.

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm hoping to get back to the joy of doing it stage, since I'm pretty sure people can feel when you are not happy to be doing something....

 

I guess though I usually do stuff without thinking about it, and tend to get surprised when someone might say something was nice of me... I don't really put much thought into it.

 

Funny thing, no one mentions when I"m an ass .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Now you guys have gotten me all contemplating... is it right or good to do selfless acts if there is not joy while you are doing them? That would have much better energy than disliking the experience (working on this).

 

Hmmm also by definition, it would be acts where there is no sense of self, as in the divine working through us, or our ego not running the show. (Divine must have a lot of free time lately).

 

OK back to telling my eggs to cook faster .

[C T]

Now you guys have gotten me all contemplating... is it right or good to do selfless acts if there is not joy while you are doing them? That would have much better energy than disliking the experience (working on this).

 

Hmmm also by definition, it would be acts where there is no sense of self, as in the divine working through us, or our ego not running the show. (Divine must have a lot of free time lately).

 

OK back to telling my eggs to cook faster .

Who decides if there is joy or not?

 

If there is this struggle, then its work in progress, as in, the gap between 'I' and 'other' is still to be reconciled fully. This, i think, could be the main consideration.

 

I also think a lot of unnecessary energy could be wasted in sifting thru the discriminative mind, as in, thinking when to do what for whom, when the same, applied to self, contains no degree of hesitation whatsoever. In Buddhist meditative exercises, the contemplative is asked to investigate why this is so, and to find how solid 'I' is, and what it is that separates, bearing in mind any degree of separation creates room for conflict, and conflict arises from dualistic notions... a whole chain reaction thing, starting from ignorance back again full circle to ignorance, a perpetual wheel of unsatisfactoriness which cannot be palliated until a seemingly solid wall of separation is dissolved.

 

How is this wall to be dissolved, that is the exercise we need to put attention to. Then we can hopefully discover the fundamental cause of why its easy to do good things for self, and not so easy when it comes to doing same for others.

 

Of course, this does not mean that we should all go and do selfless acts wantonly. First, there needs to be wisdom -- wisdom of what non-self truly means. To begin the process, i consider the importance of Intent, to begin first at that level, to check that side of the mind each time a situation arise where we are put in a position which requires putting others before self temporarily, to see what sort of thoughts and emotions surround that situation and subsequent action which follows. If we do this thoroughly, then perhaps we might realise that joyfulness is not really in the doing, but in the wanting to do stage. That is where the basis is, i would assume. The motivation is important. Once this is fully established, then the 'doing' have room to manifest spontaneously, effortlessly.

 

Btw, there is a good article/interview with a Christian contemplative Simple Jack posted in the Buddhist section on the subject of non-self.

Edited December 20, 2013 by C T

[Brian]

Who decides if there is joy or not?

 

If there is this struggle, then its work in progress, as in, the gap between 'I' and 'other' is still to be reconciled fully. This, i think, could be the main consideration.

<snip>

^^^We do, as individuals. We may be wrong. Honing our latent abilities to choose wisely is part of our cultivation and development as spiritual beings, and it has broad implications and ramifications.

 

Nungali, I broached this question a few months ago, and expanded to say that spiritual growth is in part an expansion of the concept of "self" to be increasingly inclusive (rather than that concept being an illusion to be dissolved). As our concept of self expands to include family and then community and then eventually on to include everyone and then everything, the subtleties of gratification richen and expand as well. The more abstracted the gratification becomes, the more altruistic it seems.

 

We make ripples. We can be aware of them. As the song says, don't be afraid to care.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXF_4a_5SbU

 

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

.

Edited December 20, 2013 by BaguaKicksAss

[liminal_luke]

Here's an idea. Instead of shooting for self-less action what about trying to put as much self as we can into our every activity? Self-full action, if you will. By this I definately don't mean acting as if other people aren't there and don't matter. Narcissists, sociopaths and so forth are no more in touch with themselves than they are with others; their lives aren't self-full in the least.

 

How to act self-fully? First figure out, as deeply as you can, who you are. Integrate all the conflicted subpersonalities. Plumb the subconscious, touch the superconscious. Be yourself. Once you're you, go ahead and do stuff.

 

Let the distinction between what you do for others and what you do for yourself fall away.

Edited December 20, 2013 by liminal_luke

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

How to act self-fully? First figure out, as deeply as you can, who you are. Integrate all the conflicted subpersonalities. Plumb the subconscious, touch the superconscious. Be yourself. Once you're you, go ahead and do stuff.

Let the distinction between what you do for others and what you do for yourself fall away.

 

That bit by liminal-luke was great.

 

I just act as I do really.

 

I'm trying to stop worrying about it.

 

Skandas unravelling.

 

I'll be alright soon.

 

I like to do as I do all day long bringing benefit to all I can.

 

Simple as that.

 

Of course, I don't actually leave the house much.

 

And if you saw what I did when alone at home, you might think it looks like good fun.

 

Dancing, spinning, singing, tai chi ing, yoga ing, exercising, chanting, praying, spending too much time discussing stuff on the net etc, reading, meditating, channelling, contemplating, pondering, writing poetry, doing little bits of art etc.

 

A Life of Ease.

 

Of course, I left out a lot of stuff from that list.

...

Edited December 20, 2013 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Stosh]

What is a selfless act? Really, don't we do what we want to do in any case?

 

I worked in a lot of 'shit' jobs that helped people, they were shit as I could have been down the beach or blasting the Triumph down the coast road.

 

Yeah ... altruistic. But I could have got a better job.

 

We do what we do because we want to do it ... don't we?

 

Even if part of us feels it is a self-less act purely to assist or help another ... that is what we wanted to do.

 

Unless somehow we are being forced into it, like slavery, or being overpowered or oppressed, but aside from that I mean.

 

A Hare Krishna guy tried to convince me otherwise ... I am a devotee, he said, its not for me its for Krishna, its very hard, up at 4am chanting and cooking. But when I quizzed him he had to admit he enjoyed it ... it was great, and being a bit of a philosopher, he did have to concede to my point ... he was doing it as that is what he wanted to do.

 

Oh, yeah, we bitch and complain (or not ) , we cant afford it , we should be looking after ourselves more. But we are basically self - ish .

 

The comment was made that Mother Teresa was selfish, I agree.

 

There is no dis involved here ... it might be a little confronting putting it the way I do ..... but am I wrong ?

IMO , if you are doing things for the actual and immediate pleasures of the moment ,

I dont think you can be misled because you arent needing to fabricate your rationale nor justify your longer term ideas.

 

Selfish or not selfish doesnt matter.. its just a form of villification or back patting- forget the term entirely.

 

There is another consideration regarding the question of whether people like what they are doing , is proven, by the fact that they are doing it..

.this consideration is the one of being misled about the long term benefits of ones actions.

 

You can sacrifice a moment now for one that comes later, but if that later , never arrives , then your trade-off falls flat and youve made your life a bit less pleasant. Like saving for a retirement all your life and then getting ill or dying before you get to spend any of it.

Ill cut short there.

[Marblehead]

We already know that I am selfish, right?

[chegg]

Doing the will of your spirit (higher-self) = selfless

 

Doing the will of your own thoughts, desires and emotions (lower-self) = mostly selfish

 

 

 

Sometimes higher will and lower desire overlap, but most of the time, they dont.

 

 

 

 

 

Blessings of my 2 cents.

:wub: :wub: :wub:

Edited December 20, 2013 by chegg

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. I guess I'm a lower self then. Maybe we can call that being down to earth?

[Nungali]

Not really.

 

But I think that is just because I have been overdoing it lately and am a little burned out.

 

I seem to recall a time that I did enjoy it.

 

My HGA is a slavedriver some months, heh.

Ah! Well then I suppose that depends on one's perception of who (or where) is I ?

 

Lower self says ... nah . I will keep my money in my pocket.

 

Higher self gives it too the street guy sitting on the corner.

 

Why is the 'higher self' decision NOT what we wanted to do for our self.

 

A; " I did it for him ... not for me."

 

B; " NO, you did it because YOU wanted to help him."

 

A; "Mother Teresa devotes herself to helping others ... she is the modern paradigm "

 

B: " Mother Teresa does that because she WANTS to do that."

 

We do what we want ... even if we 'fool ourselves' to think we have risen to some higher plane of consciousness and do xyz ... our 'higher plane of consciousness' WANTED to do that for its own satisfaction.

 

I know selfish has a bad rep as a word ... but selfless acts IMO has a bad rep as a concept. ... I mean , I get the base idea on it ... yes, don't be selfish ... but I am going beyond the base idea.

 

And going beyond that little rebellious voice that lies comfy in bed and says 'No I don't want to get up and do the dawn meditation.' If we get up and do it it is because that is what we wanted to do for ourself.

 

When I got up pre dawn and entered the Gerry ward to face a plethora of pissy stinking beds and 6 showers to do , washing old people , sure I bitched and grumbled about it ... but WHY did I keep doing it .... no one held a gun to my head ... I could say I did it for them ... and I did too ... but I WANTED to do it for them

 

get my drift ?

Edited December 20, 2013 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

 

What if higher self and lower are miraculously united?

 

What then, dearest cheggy?

...

[chegg]

...

 

What if higher self and lower are miraculously united?

 

What then, dearest cheggy?

...

 

Good question Oh Mar-vellous Captian ! (10/5 blessings on the karmic-scale-of good-posts )

 

"The corruptible becomes incorruptible"

 

Or as Jeff mentioned in our current hot thread http://thetaobums.com/topic/32960-mans-destiny-fixed-of-fiddley/page-3

 

"8. Lucky guy realizes full integration with the Holy Spirit and realizes the the primordial nature of God. Lucky guy is now infinitely free or infinitely trapped, depending on your perspective."

 

>>Add more amazing stuff here<<

 

 

 

 

edit : wife just said "Go hang out the washing, lazy bones" ROFL , bye bye

 

 

Blessings to Mar-vell.

:wub: :wub: :wub:

Edited December 20, 2013 by chegg

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I used to do all the laundry for my family of four.

 

Never mind.

 

It's a sad tale.

 

Oh, and my wife always used to tell me off for giving to street beggars.

 

But I liked to do it.

 

And I even tried to make sure people didn't spot me doing it.

 

Sorry, it sounds like I'm blowing my own trumpet.

...

[Nungali]

 

 

What if higher self and lower are miraculously united?

 

 

 

http://www.richardcassaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/macroprosopus.bmp

[Stosh]

^{Higher and lower are just as much illusory IMO since a body requires a mind a mind requires a body and all the other things require each other to make up the totality of what you are.}

^{Its like saying a heart is more important than having an asshole. Ummmm youd better have both.}

[Nungali]

Okay; heart, arsehole whatever ... but 'selfless acts' ; I still don't get it .... its an ego thing isn't it ???

[BaguaKicksAss]

*tried to figure out what she's getting out of the Tech job*

 

PS, it's not as though I don't like it, more neutral.

 

Or shoveling the damn walk in the cold and dark so my neighbors don't slip and fall... def not going to enjoy that one.... and in all honestly my pillow might win .

Edited December 21, 2013 by BaguaKicksAss

[Stosh]

Okay; heart, arsehole whatever ... but 'selfless acts' ; I still don't get it .... its an ego thing isn't it ???

Nugali, the idea of selfish versus selfless is bogus. The difference is whether other folks feel benefitted by your self inflicted loss or not.

Proper benevolence is like that of an appletree. It provides fruit for its own ends but in accord with the needs of the deer pig etc. If the tree drops fruit to its own detriment, its line will end outcompeted.and the deer loses a food. If the tree begrudges the deer with its poisoned fruit ,seeds are not disbursed and the trees line ends. Similarly if the deer over or under exploits the tree, the relationship is undermined.

I've read that the buddha said, there was no one more deserving than you. .which strikes me wise.

So see to your needs and with what remains , engage in mutually beneficial arrangements. , but they don't have to be quid pro quo..nor do your acts have to be stupid and self detrimental. Im quite happy with win win situations..and against self destruction.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Stosh