Zoroaster Created Judeo Christian Religions

[Nungali]

Don't forget pharaoh Akhenaten = monotheist

How could I forget him .... very memorable and exceedingly unusual chap.

 

Some do not count him as his concept of one god actually means the King is a manifestation of the "God" and Akhenaton is that living god, the 'human manifestation of the Aton.

 

But ... (without getting too ahead of myself) ... the root people that developed the pre-Zoroastrian religion and culture came form the same people that settled ancient Egypt ( they were certainly NOT African people.) And these early people ... it can be traced back (supposedly) to a culture that had a much earlier concept of monotheism ; in a form of Siberian Shamanism.

[Nungali]

The Wellhausen hypothesis ...

Thanks for the info but here I am hoping just to outline a point of view , albeit a view that has considerable academic acceptance ... and when adopted does fill in sensibly a lot of normally not-understood pieces of the puzzle.

 

I am not insisting that THIS is what happened or another view is wrong. The only way we can get info on a lot of this is to look, not at history, but at religion ... ( I know, I know ... but when that is all one has to go on) i.e. The Earliest Vedas and Avestas. Again, I will to that later.

[Nungali]

.The Avestan Religion - the Roots of Monotheism.

( notes from a talk)

Last session we concluded our introduction to religious studies and an examination of various systems and traditions that have shown religious tolerance. We began our third session by examining a cultural / religious time line. We then moved on to look at religious movements that pre-date Hinduism and the earliest western religion of Zoroastrianism. This seemed to be the time when the religions of the east and west split and, according to some theories, one strain developed ‘Western ‘religions ( Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha’i Faith) moving west and the other developed into Vedanta, ( the Hindu Religions, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.) moving through the Hindu Kush into India.

 

It will be seen below, and by examining the earliest scriptures (the earlier Vedas from India and the older Avesta scriptures of Iran) that there was a time when the root religions of these scriptures were shared by a common people (Proto Indo-European Peoples) in a common homeland (Aryan nations).

 

Some of the relevant markers in the religious time lime were:

 

9130 - 7370 BCE. The apparent lifespan of Göbekli Tepe, the oldest human-made place of worship yet discovered.

The Neolithic Revolution begins and results in a worldwide population explosion. The first cities, states, kingdoms, and organized religions begin to emerge.

7500 - 5700 BCE. The settlements of Catalhoyuk develop as a likely spiritual centre of Anatolia.

5500 - 4500 BCE. The Proto-Indo-Europeans (PIE) peoples emerged, probably within the Pontic-Caspian steppe (though their exact homeland is debated).

The PIE peoples developed a religion focused on sacrificial ideology, which would influence the religions of the descendent Indo-European cultures throughout Europe, Anatolia, and the Indian sub-continent.

3750 BCE. The Proto-Semitic peoples emerged with a generally accepted homeland in the Arabian Peninsula. The Proto-Semitic peoples would migrate throughout the Near East into Mesopotamia, Egypt, Ethiopia, and the eastern shore of the Mediterranean.

1700 BCE. Zoroaster (a.k.a. Zarathustra), founder of Zoroastrianism is thought to have been born. (Controversy over this date has been long standing, dates as widely apart as 1750 BC and 258 years before Alexander have been cited. Plutarch proposed a date millennia earlier. Zoroaster seemed to be a reformer and introducer of a much older religion related to the PIE peoples and this may account for the earlier dates.)

1500 - 1000 BCE. Vedic Hymns composed.

1367 BCE. Reign of Akhenaton in Ancient Egypt. Akhenaton is sometimes credited with starting the earliest known monotheistic religion.

950 BCE. The Torah, the core texts of Judaism, begin to be written.

440 BCE. Zoroastrianism enters recorded history.

 

Obviously something was going on further to the west as well as in central Asia. We have no knowledge yet if the two were related. It appears that a greater organisation of society was going on, than previously thought possible in hunter-gatherer culture. So we should examine that as well.

 

Göbekli Tepe, the oldest human-made place of worship yet discovered.

 

This site consists of 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars.

 

These structures predate pottery, metallurgy, and the invention of writing and the wheel; they were built before the Neolithic Revolution, i.e., the beginning of agriculture and animal husbandry around 9000 BC.

 

The construction of these complexes must have required a large amount of manpower and labour. The construction of Göbekli Tepe implies organization of an order of complexity not hitherto associated with the Palaeolithic Era.

 

Göbekli Tepe is an archaeological discovery of great importance; it could change our understanding of a crucial stage in the development of human societies and religious practices. It seems that the erection of monumental complexes was within the capacities of hunter-gatherers and not only of sedentary farming communities as had been previously thought.

 

We do not know how a force large enough to construct, augment, and maintain such a substantial complex was mobilized and rewarded or fed in the conditions of pre-Neolithic society.

 

So we don’t really have records of the earliest religions, just the ruins and they are enigmatic. After this time the Neolithic revolution began.

 

Around 7500 - 5700 BCE the settlements of Catalhoyuk develop as a likely spiritual centre of Anatolia. Following this at around, 5500 - 4500 BCE the Proto-Indo-Europeans (PIE) emerged, probably within the Pontic-Caspian steppe (though their exact homeland is debated).

 

In some views it is stated that the Proto-Indo European people did not migrate in from Sibera via the Russian Steppe directly into central Asia as it appears they migrated southward towards from the Catal-Hyuk area to where present day Afghanistan is established and there they established a series of states eventually making up an ‘Aryan nation’.

 

 

With them they bought various religious practices.

.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

P.S. It was really hard to make that post .... all the formatting went haywire, I cant post / paste like I used to be able 2 weeks ago to and I cant seem to post a picture here with out a link, no matter what instructions I follow - frustrating ... I have mentioned in in tech and was told Sean has been informed of the glitches ... so bear with me ... and any instructions on how to post a pic - that work- are welcome .

[Nungali]

Vedic and Avestic scripture seem to refer to a time when they were one religion, in one place, before the Indo – Iranian ‘split’.

 

Proto-Indo-European religion is the hypothesized religion of the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) peoples based on the existence of similarities among the deities, religious practices, scripture and mythologies of the Indo-European peoples.

 

The more recent Avesta writings demonized the Daevas, (the deities of the latter Hindus) and the post-Rig Vedic texts demonized the Asuras (deities of the Asura or Mazda worshipers that became Zoroastrians). Neither demonization occurs in the oldest texts: in the Rig-Veda, there is no real distinction between Asuras and Daevas, and even in the later Vedas, the two groups (though in opposition) cooperate at certain times.

 

In the Old Avestan texts the Daevas are to be rejected for being misguided by the "lie", but they are still gods, and not yet demons.

 

However, in the 19th century this distinction between the older and younger texts had not yet been made, and in 1884 Martin Haug postulated his thesis that, “the transition of both the words [Asuras and Devas] into the designations of the demons ... is based on a prehistoric schism in religion ..." The observation was reiterated by Jacob Grimm who, like Haug, considered it to be the theological basis of Zoroastrianism's dualism.

 

Before this (in the 1850s), Westergaard had attributed the Younger-Avesta's demonization of the Daevas to a "moral reaction against Vedic polytheism". Some modern authors like Mallory and Adams still refer to Zoroastrianism as a "religious reformation" of Vedic religion. Most scholars however stress that there were two independent developments in ancient Iran and post-Rig Vedic India, but nonetheless to be considered against the common background of prehistoric Indo-Iranian religion where both groups coexisted.

 

Our sources for information about the pre-Zoroastrian Aryan religions are the Zoroastrian and Hindu scriptures: the Avesta and Vedas respectively, the Middle Persian Zoroastrian texts and the poet Ferdowsi's epic, the Shahnameh.

 

The description of the old Aryan religions, the names of their deities, and the groups that worshipped them, are not uniformly described in these reference texts. However, in reading the texts, some common themes do emerge, themes that allow us to attempt an understanding of the early Aryan religious beliefs, customs, and groupings - as well as the relationship between the different Aryan groups.

 

There are three primary pre-Zoroastrian Aryan religions mentioned in the source texts: Mazda worship, Daeva or Deva worship and Asura worship.

 

1. Mazda Worship – Mazdayasni.

In the Avesta's book of Yashts, verse 13.87 of the Farvardin Yasht mentions that Mazda, God, was worshipped by the Aryans from the time of the first Aryan king Gaya Maretan - in other words from the outset of Aryan history. This statement is corroborated by the poet Ferdowsi's epic, the Shahnameh, and by Middle Persian Zoroastrian texts. In these texts, Gaya Maretan and his people were the first Mazdayasni meaning Mazda worshippers, the worshippers of God.

 

The word 'mazda' is thought by some to be related to the Sanskrit 'medha' meaning intelligent or wise. In usage, the word Mazda was used to mean God, that is, a creator who caused creation through wisdom.

 

Paoiryo Tkaesha (pre Zoroaster).

 

The opening paragraphs of the Avesta's Farvardin Yasht and the Yasht's verse 13.150 also tell us that Gaya Maretan and the other Pre-Zoroastrian Mazdayasni were called Paoiryo-tkaesha meaning keepers of the original ancient law. In order to differentiate early Mazda worship from the later Zoroastrian Mazda worship, researchers call this original Aryan religion, Mazdayasni Paoiryo Tkaesha.

 

Ahura Tkaesha (post Zoroaster)

 

The Farvardin Yasht's verses 89 & 90 mention that later in Aryan history, Zarathustra proclaimed the Ahura-tkaesha, the laws of the Lord (Ahura). The word 'Mazda' related to the creative aspect of the divinity grounded in an ultimate concept of wisdom, the word 'Ahura' related to the aspect of dominion over creation through order and laws. Zarathustra used these two concepts to propound a belief described as, Zarathustrian Mazda-Worship opposed to the Daeva through the laws of the Lord (Ahura).

 

Since, as we have just observed, both the pre and post Zoroastrian religions are called Mazdayasni, many authors have assumed that Zarathustra was a reformer of a Mazdayasni religion that predated him, rather than the founder of a new religion. While Zarathustra may have used previous concepts and while his followers may have incorporated elements of a previous religion, or religions, Zarathustra’s teachings were different enough for him to have initially experienced great difficulty in getting others to listen to him. Later when we look at their war of religion it will further illustrate the radical nature of his teachings.

 

In retrospect, one could postulate the difference between these two Mazdayasni systems as the first and older, being developed as a cosmological and religious expression that was quiet varied from region to region and under the auspices of various rulers of kingdoms and their hierarchical systems.

The latter writings in the Avestas suggest that this system was sometimes oppressive and unjust although the cosmology was based on a creation utilising wisdom. The second was a concept of wisdom being incorporated into kingship for the benevolent rule of society. As stated above in The Farvardin Yasht's verses 89 & 90 Zarathustra proclaimed the Ahura-tkaesha, the word 'Ahura' related to the aspect of dominion over creation through order and laws. This combined with a rejection of the Deava concept (and related forms of governance?) - worship opposed to the Daeva - constituted the second Mazdayasni form, but this is the Zoroastrian influence and occurs after the split of the Indo-Iranian Aryans. However it is the first appearance in recorded history of a reformer of the early Indo-Iranian religion (or the first Prophet of a new religious manifestation).

 

 

Zarathustra used these two concepts to propound a belief described as,

 

Zarathustrian Mazda-Worship opposed to the Daeva through the laws of the Lord (Ahura).

[Nungali]

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DEVA & ASURA WORSHIP

In his book, The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathustra, Jatindra Mohan Chatterji calls the Rig Vedic Devas the seen gods, and Asuras the unseen gods. In other words the Devas like Indra were anthropomorphic and capable of representation as idols, while the Asuras were, for the main part, non-anthropomorphic and formless.

 

In the Rig Veda, the Devas preside over natural phenomena and the exercise of power and might while the Asuras preside over the establishment of a moral and social order. For instance, the Deva Indra is guardian of the weather and victory in battle earning the title sahasra-mushka, 'the one with a thousand testicles' (Rig Veda 6.45.3), while the Asuras Varuna and Mitra are the guardians of the cosmic and moral laws.

 

In the Rig Veda (4.42.1-6), Varuna declares, "I, Varuna, am the king; first for me were appointed the dignities of Asura, the Lord. I let the dripping waters rise up, and through rta I uphold the sky."

 

Indra replies, "Men who ride swiftly, having good horses, call on me when surrounded in battle. I, the bountiful Indra, provoke strife. I whirl up the dust, my strength is overwhelming.... No godlike power can check me - I who am unassailable. When draughts of Soma, when songs have made me frenzied, then both the unbounded regions are filled with fear."

The hymns addressed to Varuna are more ethical and devout in tone than the others, and form the most noble or high-minded portion of the Rig Veda.

Some scholars have postulated that if the qualities of the gods reflect the values of the worshippers, then for Asura worshippers building and maintaining a peaceful society based on law and order was a priority. For the Deva worshippers, the priority would have been the exercise of power through might and fear. The Asuras are ethical where the Devas are materialistic. While in the Rig Veda both deities and their respective allies are worshipped, Indra and Deva worship clearly take precedence.

 

They further postulate that characteristics assigned to the Devas and Asuras reflected what beliefs the rulers and their supporting priests wished to promote in their societies. The ideal of continuously striving to improve oneself could have promoted ambition amongst the common people, while some rulers and priests may have thought it more desirable to promote satisfaction or resignation to one's lot in life - a life that had been divinely ordained. Rulers and priests so inclined would have promoted Deva worship that included the caste system rather than Asura worship that saw working to better oneself as a virtue.

 

They see this reflected in modern days in the difference between the two social class systems;

 

King Jamshid developed the concept of specialized professions. He instituted the four main professional guilds of priests and learned (athra-van), nobles and warriors (rath-est-aran), farmers (vastery-o-san), and artisans (hu-tokh-shan), with members of each profession working in freedom and dignity. Farmers had their own land free from dispute. King Jamshid also instituted the tradition of the wearing the sacred thread or belt as a mark that the wearer had been initiated into the guilds.

 

The Hindu Vedas list four similar professions called varnas (from var, to enclose, cf. Av. vara meaning enclosure): the priests and learned (Brahman), nobles and warriors (khsh-triya), merchants and farmers (vaish-yas), labourers and artisans (Sudra). Each Varna has its own dharma or system and rules (also called laws) which included an initiation ceremony called the upanayana (meaning bringing within).

 

The Vedic name for the systems of professions, varnas, and the Avestan name for the Jamshedi settlements, varas - both from the root vara meaning enclosure.

 

The Hindu initiation ceremony like the Zoroastrian initiation ceremony is also called a thread ceremony. Hinduism calls the initiate a dvijas meaning twice born signifying that the initiate is "born again" into spiritual life. Zoroastrianism uses the term navjote meaning new life. The Hindu initiation is conducted during a person's teen or early adult years. The Zoroastrian age for initiation was the age or reason, deemed by tradition to be fifteen years of age.

 

Hinduism developed the professional guilds into a caste system, a development that violated principles that Zarathustra would promote. The initiation ceremony in Hinduism is now limited to men of the first three castes, while the initiation ceremony in Zoroastrianism is available to all women and men. In Zoroastrianism, the initiation ceremony is an initiation into the faith and a coming-of-age ceremony for all Zoroastrians - rather than an initiation into a guild or caste.

 

These scholars cite this example above to demonstrate the differences between what the Devas and Asuras represented and how it became a difference in core beliefs, values, the nature of human beings, and the organization of society. These differences appear to have become strong enough to produce a deep societal divide - a schism - with the Deva worshippers on one side, and the Asura and Mazda worshippers on the other side.

 

 

(and this post was easy and no tech trouble at all ??? More later ( next; the DIFFERENCES BETWEEN DEVA & ASURA WORSHIP )

[Marblehead]

 

I am hoping to eventually outline that Zoroasater did not start something novel, he reformed something ... and that not have been 'novel'.

We'll see how that goes.

 

 

Yeah ... 'followers' , it seems a basic dynamic with religion and followers doesn't it? Another thing that happened is certain 'good qualities' that man needs for a good and just society, ie. 'concepts' or maybe even 'rays' or 'graces; of God (Mazda) became like 'angelic beings' ... not Gods as such, but originally such ideas were not part of the original teaching (earlier this became a disruptive point between two factions ; one moving closer to monotheism and the other to 'idolatry'.

Agree

 

 

No, not if the 'devil' is considered 'deity' . But 'they' all have a problem with that ;

 

"I shall have no other Gods before me." ??? What other Gods? I thought there was only one ?

Exactly. Why even mention other gods if there are no other gods?

 

I don't know if either of us can be right or wrong here. I am presenting one view ... but nothing in your post urrked me

 

Darn! I'll have to try harder. Hehehe.

 

Just kidding, of course.

 

I will go back now and read the many posts that have been added while I was sleeping.

[Marblehead]

P.S. It was really hard to make that post .... all the formatting went haywire, I cant post / paste like I used to be able 2 weeks ago to and I cant seem to post a picture here with out a link, no matter what instructions I follow - frustrating ... I have mentioned in in tech and was told Sean has been informed of the glitches ... so bear with me ... and any instructions on how to post a pic - that work- are welcome .

 

It read smooth enough for me and have no need to question any of it. Seems to be sound information.

[Marblehead]

Okay. I'm all caught up. What you presented goes much deeper than my knowledge base. I didn't do the historical evolution study of Zoroastrianism. (Note that I did intentionally use the word "evolution".)

 

And luckily for me nothing was said to cause me to challenge what was said so I don't need to do any of my own research. Hehehe.

[Nungali]

oh ... I forgot to mention; Zoroaster originally came from Peru ..... there ya go

[Marblehead]

oh ... I forgot to mention; Zoroaster originally came from Peru ..... there ya go

Hehehe. Okay, now we have a disagreement.

[SonOfTheGods]

The re-cap for late arrivals:

 

"Thus god was created in Man's Image and in Man's Likeness"

 

SonofTheGods: 3-16

 

[Nungali]

That's cool for a mid afternoon thought ( 3-16)

 

I liked Crowley's comment on the same process ... with a 'Zen' twist.

 

God created man in his own image AND Man created God in his own image. .... at the same time ... there is a nice little 'bio-feedback loop' for ya .

[Nungali]

oops posted the last bit again.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

INCORPORATION OF PRE-ZOROASTRIAN ASURAS INTO MAZDA WORSHIP & ZOROASTRIANISM
Some of the Asuras such as Mitra, are included in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta, as angels (fereshtes or yazatas) and guardians of core Zoroastrian values and ideals.

In the Avesta, the names of the yazatas are also names for core values and ideals. For instance, as an angel in the Avesta, Mithra is the guardian of the values and qualities associated with friendship. In day-to-day language, Mithra means a friend, the ideals of loyal, trustworthy, caring and kind friendship and the qualities of kindness, helpfulness and benevolence. As a core value Mithra is the value of keeping of promises.

We do not know if the incorporation of Asura worship into Mazda worship took place before or after Zarathustra’s time. In the hymns of Zarathustra, the Gathas, Zarathustra does not accommodate or incorporate the Asuras in the manner that we see elsewhere in the Avesta. Indeed, depending on the interpretation of the Gathas being read, Zarathustra can be seen as preaching an uncompromising monotheism devoid of angels.

EVOLUTION OF ARYAN WORSHIP
In reading the different Zoroastrian and Hindu texts, we are left with the impression that the three different Aryan religions as well as the relationship between them, evolved significantly over time. They could have looked very different at different points in history and also in different locations. The relationship between them also changed from one of coexistence to irrevocable separation.

The communities in which the religions were practiced could have been exclusivist or pluralistic communities. Rulers of exclusivist communities could be expected to acknowledge a single religion or even a single deity within the Deva or Asura pantheon.

At times the three religious groups coexisted while at other times they competed violently.
COEXISTENCE
An example of a pluralistic, ecumenical accommodation of the Asuras and Devas by specific communities is a c. 1400 BCE peace treaty with the Hittites, the rulers of the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni invoked the Asuras Varuna and Mitra, as well as the Devas Indra and the Nasatyas. Mitanni was located southwest of Lake Van, in an area that is part of Southern Turkey and Northern Syria today.

In the Rig Veda, we read that the initial relationship between the Asuras and Devas was one of coexistence. This relationship would gradually change to one of competition. Nevertheless, some Asuras such as Agni (fire) are invited by the Deva chief Indra to becomes Devas (Rig Veda 10.124) and Agni is sometimes referred to as a Deva. In verse 5, Varuna, a principle Asura, is also invited by Indra to become a Deva.

Cooperation between the Asuras and Devas is not relegated to the earlier Hindu scriptures, the Rig Veda. Stories of their cooperation can be found in the later Puranas, such as the story of Mount Mandara. However, their cooperation is short-lived. In the story, a catastrophic flood befalls the earth submerging the treasured possessions of the Devas and Asuras including the elixir of immortality, Amrita (cf. Avestan Amertat, immortality). The peak of the lofty Mount Meru rose above the flood and this is where the gods gathered and caucused on how to retrieve the Amrita. They agreed to a plan proposed by the Deva Vishnu. Together, they uprooted the mountain Mandara and placed it on the back of Kurma, the tortoise. The gods then coiled the world serpent Vasuki around the mountain like a rope with the Asuras holding one end of the snake and the Devas the other end.

By coordinating their actions, they used the snake coiled around the mountain to rotate the mountain and thereby churn the cosmic ocean formed by the flood. As the waters churned, the ocean turned to milk and then to butter, revealing the lost elixir of immortality and other treasures. The cooperation soon ended. According to the Bhagavata-Purana, as soon as the Amrita was produced, the Devas took possession of it, and broke their promise to the Asuras to give them half. As a consequence, the Asuras then tried to steal it from the Devas. A struggle ensued which the Asuras lost and the Devas consumed the nectar of immortality all by themselves.

The story marks the end of cooperation between the Devas and Asuras and the start of a deep and irreconcilable schism between them.

SCHISM BETWEEN MAZDA-ASURA AND DEVA WORSHIPPERS
Some scholars postulate that the story of the differences between the Asuras and Devas were a reflection of the differences and the violent conflict between the Deva and Asura worshippers. While the Hindu scriptures do not directly refer to Mazda worshippers, the Zoroastrian and Persian texts talk about the conflict as one between the Deva and Mazda worshippers.

According to the poet Ferdowsi's epic, the Shahnameh, at the dawn of history the Mazda worshippers and the Deva worshippers fought two primordial battles. The battles took place during the reign of the first Aryan king, Gaya Maretan, the first battle started when the Deva worshippers led by Ahriman, (a force of ‘evil’) attacked Gaya Maretan's Mazda worshippers. During the battle, Ahriman's son killed Gaya Maretan's son Siyamak, and the first battle resulted in the defeat of Gaya Maretan's army by Ahriman's hordes. However, retribution was to follow. After a bitter period of mourning, Gaya Maretan assembled a large army led by his grandson Hushang. The Mazda worshippers then attacked and defeated the Deva worshippers in a second battle, a defeat that resulted in a subjugation of the Deva worshippers by the Mazda worshippers.

Periodically, one group would win dominance over the other. Nevertheless, until, their separation into the nations of Iran and India, they did coexist, possibly within a community or in adjacent communities.

So here our paths diverge, one stream goes into Iran and Zoroaster, from whence the mainstream western religious traditions spring, the Levantine religions, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha’i. The other stream goes into India and develops as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc.

The Shahnameh's chapter on King Vishtasp and Zarathushtra opens with the following lines;

I've said preceding sovereigns worshipped God (Mazda)
By whom their crowns were given
To protect the people from oppressors.
God they served, acknowledging God's goodness -
For to God, the pure, unchangeable, the Holy One!
They owed their greatness and their earthly power.
But after times,
Worship of God gave way to idolatry and pagan faith,
And then Mazda's name was lost
In adoration of created things.

At the time of Zarathustra’s birth, Mazda worship had lost ground to Deva worship, as had the virtues of honesty and not causing harm to others. A young Zarathustra, disgusted with the dishonesty, violence, greed and lawlessness that surrounded him, resolved to dedicate his life to changing this state of affairs. He preached establishing an ethical order based on the old Mazdayasni faith - one that would come to be known as the Mazdayasni Ahura-Tkaesha.

The first royal When King Vishtasp adopted the Zoroastrian Mazdayasni faith, he also decided to stop paying tribute to King Arjasp of Turan, whereupon Arjasp gave Vishtasp an ultimatum to resume paying tribute and forsake his adopted faith of Zarathustra’s, or face a devastating invasion.

Arjasp sent Vishtasp a message;
"Abandon your ill course,
Be awed before the God of Paradise,
Put far from you that aging miscreant,
And hold a feast according to our customs....
If not, in a month or two,
I will enter your kingdom with fire and sword,
And destroy your authority and you.
I give you good advice:
Do not be influenced by a wicked counsellor,
But return to your former religious practices.
Weigh well, therefore, what I say."

Vishtasp rejected the ultimatum and what followed was the War of Religion (cf. Greater Bundahishn 9.36 and Lesser Bundahishn 12.36) in which Vishtasp was apparently victorious .

The perpetual conflict between the Devas and Asuras described in the Hindu texts found its way into Buddhist literature. In Pali Theravada Buddhist literature, the most frequent references to Asuras are in connection with the continual war between Asuras and Devas. Similarly, in Mahayana Buddhist literature the Asuras, motivated by envy of the Devas, are constantly at war with them.

[Nungali]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBuxMkft7q8G6JzqA3kkgDL7XcBjR4laBnx46L7mUmh5sLamvj

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/aryans/devaMahishasuraBattle.jpg

 

http://takshasila.wdfiles.com/local--files/article:sixteen-lands-of-ahuras/Asura-Expansion.png

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=shahnameh&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=2x25UqesGojgoAS27ILICQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=983&bih=401

Edited December 24, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

next; where was Arayana Vaeja - the beautiful heart of the lost homeland of the proto indo European, of lost Vedic Soma, benevolent government and bountiful nature - the Garden of Eden, Shamballa , Shangri-la ?

[Marblehead]

That's cool for a mid afternoon thought ( 3-16)

 

I liked Crowley's comment on the same process ... with a 'Zen' twist.

 

God created man in his own image AND Man created God in his own image. .... at the same time ... there is a nice little 'bio-feedback loop' for ya .

Is that an example of simultaneous arising?

[Marblehead]

... benevolent government ...

Those are going to be hard to find.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Everybody, do not be misled by Nungali's posts. He is creating theories without knowing anything about culture and history of Middle East.

 

Prophet Abraham is a real person. He is the ancestor of both Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad.

 

If you know a little bit about Middle East, the Persians and Arabs/Jews are different origin of people and their cultures did not mix as they speak completely different languages from different family of languages.

[SonOfTheGods]

 

Prophet Abraham is a real person. He is the ancestor of both Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad.

 

 

 

Pinups Mythology

[Marblehead]

If you know a little bit about Middle East, the Persians and Arabs/Jews are different origin of people and their cultures did not mix as they speak completely different languages from different family of languages.

I accept that as valid. That is why I have always wondered why there is so much hatred between the Arabs and the Jews.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I'm diggin' the link Son.

...

[thelerner]

I'd postulate some Zoroaster's ideas influenced Abrahamic religions. I wouldn't say they created them.

[Nungali]

Is that an example of simultaneous arising?

Looks like it from where this lizard is sitting.