Zoroaster Created Judeo Christian Religions

[Isimsiz Biri]

The other religions that Zoroastrianism ( or the original pre-Zoroastrian religions, i.e. the religion of the proto Indo European – people’s PIE ) influenced were the Western Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and Eastern Dharmic (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism) religious traditions. They imported a range of concepts into these religions including God, the Devil, sexual equality, evolution, Paradise , environmentalism, and the concept of the free will...

 

"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)

 

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.

 

From wiki

 

Zoroastrianism is uniquely important in the history of religion because of its formative links to both Western Abrahamic and Eastern Dharmic religious traditions.

 

 

Some scholars (Boyce, 1987; Black and Rowley, 1987; Duchesne-Guillemin, 1988) assert that key concepts of Zoroastrian eschatology and demonology are evident in the Abrahamic religions, for instance in the Asmodai of Judaism.

 

 

 

For example, one of the popular strains within Zoroastrianism considers both good and evil as creations of God. According to historians, this is a doctrine that influenced Christianity and notwithstanding the great deal of exposition in order to not compromise Zoroaster's otherwise coherent concept of Free Will, has a widespread following...

 

 

Zoroastrianism, though small in number of adherents, is the original religion of tens of millions of Shi'a Iranians, Sunni Kurds and the Parsee of India. These populations still celebrate Zoroastrian holidays, still honor their Zoroastrian roots and, in many cases, have expressed a yearning to go back to the precepts which were noted for their tolerance of other faiths and commitment to coexistence, a point of view that is lacking in many parts of the regions where they live.

 

Many aspects of Zoroastrianism are in turn present in the culture and mythologies of the peoples of the Greater Iran, not least because Zoroastrianism, for a thousand years, was a dominant influence on the people of the cultural continent. Even after the rise of Islam and the loss of direct influence, Zoroastrianism remains part of the cultural heritage of the Iranian language-speaking world, in part as festivals and customs [...] which in turn is pivotal to Iranian identity.

If you want to understand the Iranians, the Kurds, the Parsi of India and the source concepts of the religions that both east and west call their own, an exploration of Zoroastrianism can be invaluable.

 

 

 

Zoroastrianism is, first and foremost, a environmentalist religion. The purity of the earth, water and air is paramount to the founding precepts and the adherents are bound, by scripture, to protect nature in all its glory. This is also evidenced by Zoroastrianism's specific holidays, which fall on the equinoxes and solstices, as celebrations of the natural cycles of the earth .

 

 

 

Basic Zoroastrian precepts

• Equalism: Equality of all, irrespective of gender, race, or religion.

• Respect and kindness towards all living things. Condemnation of the oppression of human beings, cruelty against animals and sacrifice of animals.

• Environmentalism: Nature is central to the practice of Zoroastrianism and many important Zoroastrian annual festivals are in celebration of nature: new year on the first day of spring, the water festival in summer, the autumn festival at the end of the season, and the mid-winter fire festival.

• Hard work and charity: Laziness and sloth are frowned upon. Zoroastrians are encouraged to part with a little of what would otherwise be their own.

• Loyalty and faithfulness to "family, settlement, tribe, and country."

 

Zoroastrianism's most sacred prayer

The Ahunwar (in Avestan):

 

ýathâ ahû vairyô

athâ ratush ashâtcît hacâ

vanghêush dazdâ mananghô

shyaothananãm anghêush mazdâi

xshathremcâ ahurâi â

ýim drigubyô dadat vâstârem!!

 

Translation:

 

The will of the Lord is the law of righteousness.

The gifts of Vohu-mano [humanity] to the deeds done in this world for Mazda [God].

He who relieves the poor makes Ahura [God] king

He who relieves the poor makes Ahura [God] king...

 

And then there are those ancient legal codes within the Avesta that prohibited slavery, allowed for anyone, king to poorest, to bring another before a court, required that men were responsible for women they impregnated (and the child) throughout their lifetimes, codified that women could own land and divorce without question, prohibited animal and human sacrifice.........

 

 

The supreme being is called Ahura Mazda (Phl. Ohrmazd), meaning "Wise Lord." Ahura Mazda is all good, and created the world and all good things, including people. He is opposed by Anghra Mainyu (Phl. Ahriman), meaning "Destructive Spirit," the embodiment of evil and creator of all evil things. The cosmic battle between good and evil will ultimately lead to the destruction of all evil.

Religious observances

 

Religious observances include the wearing of sacred garments, a sudreh (shirt) and kusti (cord or belt). There is a cleansing ritual known as the Padyab, where an adherent reties the kusti several times a day with another short ritual called the Nirang-i Kusti.

 

Prayer is in the Avestan language and is performed several times a day either facing fire or the sun as representative of the spirit of God.

 

Birthdays are honored and celebrated with gifts and ritual, as are the birth of children, which includes gifts to both the mother and child.

 

There are several festivals throughout the year (mostly falling on equinoxes and solstices). The modern Newroz (New Year) festival in both the Iranian and Kurdish culture is a primary Zoroastrian event.

 

A black Zoroastrian skullcap, known as a fenta, is thought to have influenced the use of the kippah (yarmulke) in Judaism, as well as the head coverings in both the Catholic and Islamic faiths.

 

 

There are admonitions against sex with a women during menstruation, rape and sodomy; similar to the same prohibitions you see in the Bible.

 

The difference is the responsibility the perpetrator had toward those he involved and/or violated. This is a very interesting part of the religion, in that, if a man impregnated a woman (rape or not), he was responsible for her and her child's well being for life.

 

The sodomy prohibition was interesting, as well, in that it prohibited the practice among Zoroastrians (the punishment was a lashing), while it was specified that such judgment was not allowed against anyone who was not Zoroastrian, as they had a right to their own beliefs and practices.

 

You see this point of view throughout the scripture and the precepts; the requirement that Zoroastrians neither judge nor evangelize against other belief systems, which led to a tolerant religious environment and coexistence between faiths that was hitherto unseen in the ancient world.

 

 

The beginning and the end, the creator of everything which can and cannot be seen, the Eternal, the Pure and the only Truth. In the Gathas, the most sacred texts of Zoroastrianism and thought to have been composed by Zoroaster himself, the prophet acknowledged devotion to no other divinity besides Ahura Mazda

There is debate as to whether Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic or dualistic religion. Zoroastrians consider it monotheistic because Ahura Mazda is specified as the only and supreme god. Others cite the fact that Ahura Mazda and his opponent Angra Mainya (which means angry spirit/destructive principle) being perceived as uncreated beings locked in a battle of good vs. evil, means that Zoroastrianism is a dualistic faith.

 

Zoroastrians point out that Zoroaster's writings, the Gathas; the first poems of the Zoroastrian scripture and the only part of the scripture known to be written by Zoroaster himself, specifies Ahura Mazda as the one god and that such suppositions are misinterpretations of the later texts.

 

Zoroastrians also point out that, as dualism means worshiping more than one god, and since they would never worship an angry spirit that is equivalent to the devil, the designation does not apply to them anyway.

 

Not in dispute: Zoroastrianism was the only other religion of its time (approx 1700-1000 BCE) to believe in a single omniscient and supreme being besides Judaism; at a time that the Hebrew tribes were still forming their beliefs. Those beliefs had an opportunity to influence one another in the sixth century, BCE, when the tribe of Judah was exiled to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar (hanging gardens' fame), where their leading citizen, Daniel (of the Lion's Den Fame) interacted with the Zoroastrian king of Anshan (Iran), Cambyses I, his son, Cyrus the Great and Cyrus' successor, Darius the Great.

 

It was at that time, when the first ten books of the Bible were being transcribed from the tribe's oral history to text, that many Zoroastrian precepts were thought to have entered the belief systems of the tribe of Judah in Babylon and of the lost tribe of Ephraim, which was in Anshan (Iran) following their exile from Israel years earlier by the Assyrian King, Tiglath Pileser III (their descendants being Iranian Jews).

 

Influence on other religions and societies

 

As specified above, Zoroastrianism is thought to have greatly influenced Judaism, specifically through the prophet Daniel's close association with the Achaeamenid kings (Cambyses I, Cyrus the Great, Cambyses II and Darius the Great).

 

Two locations claim Daniel's tomb. One, in Kirkuk, is venerated by the Iraqi Kurds who see Daniel as a great man who both served and influenced their Zoroastrian ancestors. The other is in Susa, the former king seat of Darius the Great, in southwestern Iran; a place where Daniel is known to have lived when he was in Darius' service as an adviser to his court.

 

It is interesting to note that Iranians still lay flowers on Daniel's tomb. They do the same with the tomb of Esther, the Jewish wife of Xerxes the Great. They are aware that the founder of Iran, Cyrus the Great, returned the tribe of Judah from their enslavement in Babylon to the city of Jerusalem, along with the funds to rebuild their temple and a promise of protection; a promise which he and his predecessors kept until their overthrow by Alexander the Great two centuries later.

 

It is also interesting that Iran's major holidays are almost all Zoroastrian events. The influence of Zoroastrianism on Islam and the Iranian culture is profound. Again, the quote from wiki:

Many aspects of Zoroastrianism are in turn present in the culture and mythologies of the peoples of the Greater Iran, not least because Zoroastrianism, for a thousand years, was a dominant influence on the people of the cultural continent. Even after the rise of Islam and the loss of direct influence, Zoroastrianism remained part of the cultural heritage of the Iranian language-speaking world, in part as festivals and customs but also because Ferdowsi incorporated a number of the figures and stories from the Avesta in his epic Shāhnāme, which in turn is pivotal to Iranian identity.

In addition, Zoroastrianism is thought to have influenced eastern Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. This is expressed through the Vedic texts of Dharma, a Sanskrit word that means both 'fixed decree, law, duty' and 'natural law, reality':

Like the historical Vedic religion, which is the historical predecessor of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism also derives from the religious principles of Indo-Iranian times. As such, and although Zoroastrianism is not considered a Dharmic religion, it is not surprising to find fundamental concepts similar to dharma and rta in the [earlier] Gathas as well.

Zoroaster (Thus Spake Zarathushtra)

"The prophet Zarathushtra, son of Pourushaspa, of the Spitaman family, is known to us primarily from the Gathas, seventeen great hymns which he composed and which have been faithfully preserved by his community. These are not works of instruction, but inspired, passionate utterances, many of them addressed directly to God; and their poetic form is a very ancient one, which has been traced back (through Norse parallels) to Indo-European times. It seems to have been linked with a mantic tradition, that is, to have been cultivated by priestly seers who sought to express in lofty words their personal apprehension of the divine; and it is marked by subtleties of allusion, and great richness and complexity of style.

 

Boyce - Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices, London, 1979, pg 17.

 

Zoroastrianism, the religion as revealed by the prophet Zoroaster would go on to become the predominant world religion for a thousand years, until the rise of Islam pushed it into the subconscious and cultural memory of the Iranian and Kurdish peoples.

 

Zoroastrianism also followed the Iranian exiles, those who fled Islamic persecution and forced conversion, east to India. These exiles are now known as the Parsi a close knit Zoroastrian community that is one of the few to hold on to all the old rituals and to follow the scripture as written.

 

Zoroastrianism in Western Academia

 

Much of the western understanding of Zoroastrianism comes from the early Greek writers, most specifically, Herodotus. This presents a problem because both he had reason to overlook the positive in favor of the difference and/or misunderstandings of the faith.

 

To understand why, it helps to look at what was happening between east and west where he lived.

 

Herodotus was from Ionian Greece (western Turkey) at a time when the Achaeamenid kings, Darius and Xerxes, were campaigning against Greece. During Darius' campaign, the city of Miletus (modern Bodrum), the seat of Greek philosophy, revolted against their Persian overlords and was burned to the ground.

 

The importance of Miletus cannot be underestimated in the hearts of Greeks. It was the home of Thales the Sage, the father of philosophy who had opened the first Greek academy of higher learning, where his students included Pythagoras and Anaximander and his colleagues, Solon and Aesop.

 

To quote Aristotle: All thought began with Thales.

 

Needless to say, after that, the Greeks were not inclined to publicized positive information about their adversaries' faith.

 

In addition, there has been some confusion in reading the sacred texts (the first five books of Zoroaster) as also including the later Pahlavi texts, rather than seeing the latter as commentary and religious studies.

 

 

The most well known Zoroastrians are not even known as Zoroastrians. These are the three wise men, the Magi, from the bible who brought presents to Jesus at his birth. The Magi were the priestly caste of the Medes (Kurds) who were the clerics of the Zoroastrian faith within their culture.

 

 

 

Zoroastrianism is a founding belief system acknowledged to have heavily influenced both Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and Dharmic (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism) religions.

 

 

More information about Zoroastrianism:

 

Avesta -- Zoroastrian Archives

 

Wiki on Zoroastrianism

 

Livius (Dutch author Jona Lendering's incredible historical site) on the:

Avesta, Zoroastrianism, Zoroaster, the Achaeamenids and his complete index on Persia.

 

Recommended reading: Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians

 

 

 

 

http://op-ed.the-environmentalist.org/2007/04/zoroastrianisms-influence-on-judaism.html

 

“ Zoroastrianism had many impacts on other religions after Persia spread under the rule of Cyrus the Great and conquered the abutting countries.

 

Christianity was another religion which was beget after the death of Jesus. It was said that Jesus was the Messiah and the son of god, who would come and aid mankind and save them from doom. There are many similarities between Christianity and Zoroastrianism which can easily be spotted, since Zoroastrianism was one of the largest influences upon Christianity. Among the many similarities between both religions one of them is, they're both dualistic. As mentioned, Zoroastrianism was considered a dualistic religion as it had to do with the fight between Ahura Mazda, truth and good will, and Angra Mainyu, wickedness and corruption .

 

Zoroastrianism states that Ahura Mazda is to always fight against its creation, Angra Mainyu in order to make Earth a cloister. This is very similar to the concept of Christianity, the battle between God and the Devil, otherwise known as good and evil. The basis of the dilemma between good and evil in Christianity and Zoroastrianism can be seen as similar as well.

 

In Christianity, the altercation between God and the Devil is said to have began after Lucifer was expelled from Heaven after disobeying God, leading to the fight between both. In Zoroastrianism, after the birth of Angra Mainyu, a fight arose between Ahura Mazda and its creation as Angra Mainyu wanted to have control over everything. Although these are some of the larger influences that Zoroaster's beliefs had on Christianity there is one more which is very noticeable. The concept which was passed from Zoroastrianism to Christianity was, the belief of that in the end good will subdues evil, and everything will come to an end. In Zoroastrianism, it states that after 12,000 years of battle Ahura Mazda will prevail over the wicked, in which everything will then undergo a catharsis and time will cease to exist. This is seen in Christianity which says that at one point in time, God will conquer the Devil and the Messiah will come and collect all the souls which have fought for the greater good .

 

These are the many influences that Zoroaster's concepts have had on Christianity.

 

Zoroastrianism is very influential to other religions as well, not just to Christianity. Through the practices of Judaism we can see that Zoroaster's concepts impacted it greatly. For example, we can see that they both believed in angels. One major similarity between both was that Zoroastrianism explained that a saviour would come to save all those who believed in Ahura Mazda. This is strikingly alike to the belief in Judaism which assumed that eventually a Messiah would come in the aid of the Jews. We believe that Zoroastrianism's belief in the Saoshyant later influenced the Jewish belief that a Messiah was fated to come and save those who were faithful .

 

All in all, it was clear that Zoroastrianism was very influential towards Christianity and Judaism, which is why we can acknowledge the countless similarities between the three. “ see Wiki. For references.

 

“However, we do know of similarities and influences, that the Path of Loving Good Thinking shares, or has had on other paths. In the East it seems to be more a case of similarities, some uncanny, between TheTeaching ofThe Saviors.and the Oriental religions. Early Hinduism and the old Aryan pre Zarathushtian religion are practically the same. Afterwards, they did part ways, but they share a set of similar cultural assumptions. There is Rta and its almost duplicate, Asha. There is Karma and there is the Principle of Return in Ashi, which is a part of Asha. Both religions highly value Fire and both use the Kushti (girdle or cord). In fact, a food case can be made that the latter Hindu doctrine of reincarnation comes from the Gathas, it certainly does not exist in the Rig Veda.” See a historical overview here http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/discussions_10.html

 

“The case in the West is one of influence. When scholars study the Old Testament, they find a disparity between the Jewish doctrines in pre-exilic and Jewish doctrines in post- exilic Judaism. Pre-Exilic Judaism was a minority religion in the Northern Kingdom and maybe also in Judea, since most Israelites and large numbers of Judeans were either totally Pagan or semi Pagan.

 

Outside some Psalms and Job (believed to be post- exilic), pre-exilic Judaism is missing some important doctrines that are cardinal in Post-exilic Judaism. Satan, the Resurrection, Hell and Heaven. What change came over the religion in the exile years and where did this change originate? There are some rather large hints in the Bible itself and in the Gathic and post Gathic Persian literature.

 

It is a known fact that king Nebuchednezar exiled the Jews to Babylon, after his conquest of Jerusalem in 587 BC. This was a traumatic experience for the Jews. They could understand the exile in terms of Yahweh's judgment of His people, but what of the future? Were the Jews to be abandoned? And why did the God of Israel let foreigners destroy them? They could understand Yahweh's wrath, but why use the Gentiles and their gods to punish Israel?

 

“ Those Jews who had not been seduced by the Baals, had always believed Yahweh to be exclusively 'their' God. Now faced with disaster, the beliefs of Jews were shaken. Through their years in exile, they became exposed to other belief systems and in a process of spiritual catharsis, they came to reform and adopt some of them. Because of their situation as an enslaved people, this process was inevitable and might have resulted in their eventual assimilation. It is at this, their most trying moment, that they came into contact with a civilization and a religion that was to shape their destiny, both as a national entity and as a religion.

 

“In 539 BC, Cyrus The Great, Emperor of Persia, conquered Babylon. The effect of this conquest on the Jewish captivity was to have monumental repercussions in world history.

 

Cyrus was a practicing believer in the Zoroastrian religion. His exceedingly kind and farsighted rule has been attributed the result of his religious beliefs. For the Jews accustomed to harsher Babylonian rule, this leniency showed by Cyrus must have come as a surprise. Cyrus was not content with being a benevolent ruler, driven perhaps by his religious beliefs, perhaps by an uncommon political wisdom, Cyrus set about righting the wrongs committed by the Babylonians upon their defeated victims. It was the Jews that were to make this policy of Cyrus famous. But listen to the Bible:

 

"And He (Yahweh) says of Cyrus; He is my shepherd, and he will accomplish everything that I want, he will say to Jerusalem You shall be built, and her ruins I shall rebuilt. So does Yahweh say to His anointed, to Cyrus, I have taken you by your right hand, that you might submit nations before you and undo the sustenance of kings; to have doors open in front of you, which doors shall not be closed. I will go before you, and I will straighten all the crooks on your paths; I will smash to pieces bronze doors (for you) and (for you) I shall shatter locks of iron. I shall give you the hidden treasures, and the most guarded secrets..." Isaiah 44:28 - 45:3. (NRSV)

 

“To understand, the import of the above passage we must understand its meaning in the Jewish context. For the Jews, the Gentiles were impure; they were not to associate with them outside business or casual contact. Now there is a prophet of God, extolling the virtues of a Gentile king, and conferring upon him, specific Jewish religious titles! When a prophet of Yahweh calls Cyrus His shepherd, the religious implications had to be mind-boggling. A shepherd in this context is a religious and political leader of Israel, a national hero like David. One that was appointed by Yahweh Himself!! This amounts to installing Cyrus and through him all the following Persian emperors as super kings and priests over Israel.

 

“There is no questioning Cyrus for he has "...been taken by his right hand..." by Yahweh Himself!! In addition Yahweh calls Cyrus "my anointed". This is a very specific and technical Jewish religious term. The 'anointed' in Jewish religion were the kings of Israel, their prophets and the high priests (Lev. 8:12, 1 Sam. 9:16, 10:1, 16:13, 2Chr 23:11, 1Kings 1:39 etc.); this verifies our interpretations of the term 'shepherd'. But this is not the only implication here, anointed in the Hebrew is Messiah. Messiah in turn is the Jewish word translated into Greek as Christos or in English Christ. Yahweh has anointed Cyrus as king, priest and savior over Israel; this gives Cyrus total authority over Israel in all matters, political as well as religious.

 

“If we include the fact that Cyrus, according to Zarathushtrian theology would, as head of state, also be the protector of the latter day version of Zarathushtra's teachings, we can begin to appreciate Yahweh's statement. For with this statement Judaism comes under the authority (by God's stated will) of the Persian Empire and religion. This is confirmed when Judaism goes on to adopt many doctrines of Zoroastrianism. The Devil, the after life, "good" people go to a "heaven" and "evil" doers go to a place of punishment. These are places which are identical to the "Best" and "Worst" Existences of the latter day version of Zarathushtra's teachings in the Gathas.

 

“Doctrines belonging to Zarathushtra´s followers, such as resurrection of the dead, were accepted at this time, at least by the Persian faction, which came to be known as Pharisees (from Persians, Pharsees). More doctrines such as the coming savior became part of Judaism. All these doctrines were to pass from Judaism into Christianity and Islam.

 

“It is interesting to point out that the Qumram sect, responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls, was a Zoroastrian heretic group, as can be seen by studying the sect's documents. Specifically their doctrines of the two spirits and the two ways. Other influences on Christianity and Islam include, but are not limited to, Islam's 5 prayer times, Muhammad's Night Journey to Jerusalem and Heaven and the Sarat Bridge. In Christianity we have among others the Lake of Fire and titles such as King of Kings.

 

“Paul who is the writer of most of the New Testament, seems to be heavily influenced himself beyond mere Jewish influence. His treatment of Love in 1st Cor. includes the famous discourse on the Complete, which is the literal meaning of the Greek, which is mostly translated as the Perfect The Complete of course is the literal meaning of Haurvatat. His idea of the charismas looks suspiciously close to the Amesha Spentas. His discourse on the armor of a Christian, includes a description eerily similar to the tying of the Kushti. And many of his sayings betray Z influence,

 

“It is important to note that Cilicia, his birth province and Taurus his birth city, were both hot beds of Zoroastrian Non-orthodox, but definitely Zoroastrian activity, with a large population of believers and several Fire temples. In fact, 100+ years later, the Sassanians and the Eastern Roman Empire fought at least 1 war over the rights of these Zoroastrians.

 

“Yeshua himself betrays Z influence especially in his doctrine of the Kingdom, which is totally unheard of in Judaism, and, since he was a rabbi, he knew this so ...

“http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/similarities_and_influences.html

 

Also this by James Barr (Prof of Hebrew at Oxford Uni )

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1464919?uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103288371763

 

“Though today the Zoroastrian religion is on the fringe of the fringe of world religions, many religious scholars are convinced that the faith heavily influenced at least three of the world’s current major religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.”

 

http://hammeringshield.wordpress.com/2013/09/01/zoroastrianism-little-religion-big-influence/

 

(note the bolded sections)

 

Influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism : http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/influenceofzoroastrian.pdf

 

Iranian roots of Christianity; http://www.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/RennieCSSR36.1.pdf

 

 

An easy to read post on the influence on Islam http://www.liberezvous.org/viveDieu/index.php?/topic/82-the-topic-of-hicham-the-influence-of-zoroastrianism-in-islam/

 

The other view ; http://www.avesta.org/antia/Views_of_Scholars_Refuting_Zoroastrian_Influence.pdf

 

 

Again, do not be misled by his fantasies oh sorry theories.

 

Prophet Jesus Christ was born as Jewish. Prophet Moses and Prophet Aaron were also born as Jewish. They could not be affected by Persian culture or religion, simply due to followings:

 

1. They were geographically far away from Iran and its cultural effects.

 

2. They did not speak Persian or Iranian language. Prophet Moses and Prophet Aaron were from Ancient Egypt which was completely independent from Persia. Prophet Jesus Christ lived in Roman empire lands as a Jew again nothing to do with Iran.

 

Anyone in Middle East will just laugh at these theories. Really.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Marblehead]

I am sorry Marblehead but you seem to have been led off to a side track here by IB posting false assumtions about this thread. see my posts above. Also these are valid theories often discussed by academnics. I have supplied links to these and anyone can follow them up.

 

I go off topic in threads all the time. Nothing new here. I'm not disagreeing with you. And I know what you are presenting is a theory.

 

I don't agree with some of the assumptions of the people you are quoting. I voiced my initial objection at the beginning of this thread.

[Nungali]

 

BUT it is YOU that is implying that the Quran is actually mentioning Zoro himself without using his name. A few prophets may have acknowledged him as a cool dude but he didn't make it by name into their Holy Book so you are SPECULATING. Your proof isn't proof. You do see that right?

You are quiet confused, I don't know how to explain it to you any clearer. I am not speculating. When Moslems came into contact with Zoroastrians they were considered people of the book; people who wwere monotheistic and worshipped the same god as they did, similar to the way they accepted Jews and Christians. They did this because the Koran said there were such people in the past ( past from the time of Mohammad ) thet did that, although they were not named.

 

They, the Muslims at that time made that decision - I didn't ....they made them Dhimi - I didn't .... get it ???

 

If you cant understand that or refuse to well .... whatever.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

Incorrect. Do not believe Nungali's posts, especially if they are about Islam.

The Quran mentions only 25 prophets by name but also tells that God sent many other prophets and messengers, to all the different nations that have existed on Earth. Many verses in the Quran discuss this:

 

"We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. ..." Quran 40:78

 

"For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, ..." Quran 16:36

[Nungali]

 

Nungali,

 

Answer me simply: Did you say Prophet Abraham is not a real person or not?

I refuse to answer ... as this reply from you is given to a very clear statement I made where YOU falsely accused me ... YOU didn't and CANT answer my question, (and you wont because I proved you wrong)

 

If you cant follow the normal logical process of discussion, why should I answer any of your questions? Now go back and answer my question "Where did I say Zoroaster created Judeo Christian religion?"

[Nungali]

 

 

Again, do not be misled by his fantasies oh sorry theories.

 

Prophet Jesus Christ was born as Jewish. Prophet Moses and Prophet Aaron were also born as Jewish. They could not be affected by Persian culture or religion, simply due to followings:

 

1. They were geographically far away from Iran and its cultural effects.

 

2. They did not speak Persian or Iranian language. Prophet Moses and Prophet Aaron were from Ancient Egypt which was completely independent from Persia. Prophet Jesus Christ lived in Roman empire lands as a Jew again nothing to do with Iran.

 

Anyone in Middle East will just laugh at these theories. Really.

They will only laugh if they are uneducated or ignorant.

 

One ... mind you ... ONE way they interfaced was through the Alexandrian synthesis . This was one of the main ways Zoroastrian ideas met Greek and Egyptian and Jewish ideas and gave birth to that form of it in Hermetics which then passed into Islam.

 

According to Isimizis Biri ... everyone lived in their own country, no one knew each others language, nor travelled, nor did trade . No one went to Egypt and then Palestine, Abraham never came from Mesopotamia and and and .... what a strange view of the ancient world ... an uneducated view ... an embarrassing view

 

and one offered to try and make some dogmatic religious point

[Nungali]

I go off topic in threads all the time. Nothing new here. I'm not disagreeing with you. And I know what you are presenting is a theory.

 

I don't agree with some of the assumptions of the people you are quoting. I voiced my initial objection at the beginning of this thread.

Do you mean this : " Zarathustra did not create the Judeo-Christian-Moslem religions. However, yes, they did grow out of Zoroasttianism."

 

That is precisely my point . I was referring to isimizis Biri tyring to make out I agree with the thread topic - which I don't. I do however agree with your statement .

[Marblehead]

Do you mean this : " Zarathustra did not create the Judeo-Christian-Moslem religions. However, yes, they did grow out of Zoroasttianism."

 

That is precisely my point . I was referring to isimizis Biri tyring to make out I agree with the thread topic - which I don't. I do however agree with your statement .

Great! That's settled. Should we now find something else to think we disagree about?

 

And truth is, if I were to ever consider adopting a religion, Zoroastrianism would be the first one (in its original form) I would do a more thorough investigation of. (Of what I can recall from earlier studies it is closer to Taoist Philosophy than any other except perhaps Hindu.)

[Isimsiz Biri]

The Quran mentions only 25 prophets by name but also tells that God sent many other prophets and messengers, to all the different nations that have existed on Earth. Many verses in the Quran discuss this:

 

"We did aforetime send messengers before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. ..." Quran 40:78

 

"For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, ..." Quran 16:36

 

Good post. However, it is not so easy to tell a historical figure was really a Prophet or not.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Do you mean this : " Zarathustra did not create the Judeo-Christian-Moslem religions. However, yes, they did grow out of Zoroasttianism."

 

That is precisely my point . I was referring to isimizis Biri tyring to make out I agree with the thread topic - which I don't. I do however agree with your statement .

 

Nungali,

 

First write my name correctly.

 

Second, you make quotations from Holy Quran to say that God Almighty has sent many Prophets. Then you say Judaism, Christianity and Islam grow out of Zoroastrianism. This is a very clear contradiction.

 

Please make your ideas clear. I say that Prophet Abraham is a real person. Prophet Moses is a real person. Prophet Jesus Christ is a real person. Prophet Muhammad is a real person. They were all Messengers of God Almighty. They conveyed the messages of God to humanity. They were not affected by Zoroastrianism because cultural, geographical and historical reasons.

[Isimsiz Biri]

They will only laugh if they are uneducated or ignorant.

 

One ... mind you ... ONE way they interfaced was through the Alexandrian synthesis . This was one of the main ways Zoroastrian ideas met Greek and Egyptian and Jewish ideas and gave birth to that form of it in Hermetics which then passed into Islam.

 

According to Isimizis Biri ... everyone lived in their own country, no one knew each others language, nor travelled, nor did trade . No one went to Egypt and then Palestine, Abraham never came from Mesopotamia and and and .... what a strange view of the ancient world ... an uneducated view ... an embarrassing view

 

and one offered to try and make some dogmatic religious point

 

Nungali,

 

I have thousands of books in my personal library. My general culture is as good as yours. You are telling ideas which do not belong to me.

 

Even in your own sentences, you present how far you are from reality. You said Prophet Abraham went to Mesopotamia.

 

Prophet Abraham was born in Sanliurfa, South East Turkey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_in_Islam

 

http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN,33670/tourism-relating-to-faith.html

The Prophet Abraham and Urfa

It is believed that Abraham, the father of prophets, was born in Şanlıurfa, whose citadel and Lake Balik were the scene of his struggle with Nimrod and casting into the flames. Abraham is recognized as a prophed by the Jews, Christians and Muslims, so that as his birthplace Şanlıurfa is considered holy by adherents to all three faiths. Indeed, the cave where he was born is visited each year by thousand of tourists Turkish and foreign, as are Lakes Halil-ür Rahman and Aynzeliha and the sacred sites in their vicinity.

It was Abraham who built Kaaba, and because Şanlıurfa is his birthplace it is visited in season by pilgrims from far-flung parts of the earth-Europe, Central Asis, Iran and Turkey itself-on their way to and from the Holy Land. All these visits have in the past meant crowdingi, but thanks to the initiative of Turkish President Süleyman and Minister of State Necmettin Cevheri, and the laudable efforts of then-governor T. Ziyaeddin Akbulut and Deputy Governor Hasan Duruer, the area around Lake Balik was redesigned in 1992-97. In a project drawn up by the architect Merih Karaaslan, the area was provided with lawns, a 200-vehicle parking facility, a four-star hotel, a shopping center, baths, toilets a laundry facility, and places for the performing of ablutions. In the name of authenticity Urfa’s traditional architecture was respected, the local Urfa stone was used as a building material, and historical buildings and shopping areas were restored.

The Cave of Abraham’s Birth and the Mevlid-i Halil Mosque

The cave where the Prophet Abraham was born lies in the courtyard of the Mevlid-i Halil Mosque, 100 meters east of Lakes Halil-ür Rahman and Aynzelihe. Abraham remained in this cave until his seventh year, and many believe that the medicinal waters found within it can help cure a range of ailments.

In memory of Abraham, a small mosque was built next to the cave in Ottoman times and named the Mevlid-i Halil. When due to its size mosque began to prove incapable of absorbing the crowds of visitors, a large one with twin minarets, named the Yeni Dergah Mosque, was erected beside it in 1986.

Prophet Abraham was born in Urfa city in Southeast Turkey, he traveled to Egypt and Palestine and Arabia. He always remained in Semitic languages environment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages)

Approximate historical distribution of Semitic languages.

Prophet Abraham never went to Iran.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[h.uriahr]

I personally think this is a waste of time because Nungali has proof that's not proof. Yet he doesn't understand that. He thinks Zoro is in the Quran when the Quran MAKES NO MENTION OF ZORO AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. ZIP.

[Nungali]

Your seemingly total inability to grasp what has clearly been explained to you several times reveals you prejudice.

 

And stop saying 'Zoro is in the Quran' (Zoro was the one with the eye mask and sword) I never said Zoroaster was 'in the Quran' either. Where did I say that ?

 

So your ' . NONE. ZERO. ZIP' is pure piddle.

 

This is what you types do .... misquote and make up false facts about what people write and mean and then try to attack it as if it is one of their ideas .... keep going ; attack your own misconceptions ... if that makes you feel better.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

Good post. However, it is not so easy to tell a historical figure was really a Prophet or not.

The post isn't that good ... if you were as smart about it as you should be, you would have bought my (and everyone else's ) attention to the distinction between Nabiyyun, Rusul and Mursalun.

[Nungali]

 

Nungali,

 

First write my name correctly.

 

Second, you make quotations from Holy Quran to say that God Almighty has sent many Prophets. Then you say Judaism, Christianity and Islam grow out of Zoroastrianism. This is a very clear contradiction.

Why? If God has sent many prophets why would they greatly contradict each other. In this view, God sends Prophets to build on the work of the past Prophets ... each time is different and needs cultural and social teachings ( that change, evolve and develop )and spiritual teachings (that don't change according to time )

 

Its all in the concept of 'progressive revelation' look that one up .

 

 

Please make your ideas clear. I say that Prophet Abraham is a real person. Prophet Moses is a real person. Prophet Jesus Christ is a real person. Prophet Muhammad is a real person. They were all Messengers of God Almighty. They conveyed the messages of God to humanity. They were not affected by Zoroastrianism because cultural, geographical and historical reasons.

Yes, that is the 'religious believers' viewpoint ... I am not arguing with that (unless one clearly understands the nature of belief {which is an essential pre-component of Religious Studies) as this is not a thread about religious belief ... it is religious studies.

[Nungali]

 

 

Even in your own sentences, you present how far you are from reality. You said Prophet Abraham went to Mesopotamia.

 

Prophet Abraham was born in Sanliurfa, South East Turkey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_in_Islam

 

 

 

I believe I said he 'came from' Mesopotamia not that 'he went there' ... again (these guys are getting desperate to try and slip in a misquote and then work on that .... sorry to disappoint you).

 

 

" Abraham, originally Abram, is the first of the three Patriarchs of Israel whose story is told in chapters 11–25 of the Book of Genesis, as well as the Quran. Abram was called by God to leave his father Terah's house and native land of Mesopotamia in return for a new land, family, and inheritance in Canaan, the promised land."

 

Lets see what happens when we remove the word Islam in your search ' Abraham in Islam' and see what the same site you linked to says about it .... hmmmmm? :

 

https://www.google.com.au/#q=Where+did+Abraham+come+from

Edited January 8, 2014 by Nungali

[h.uriahr]

Your seemingly total inability to grasp what has clearly been explained to you several times reveals you prejudice. And stop saying 'Zoro is in the Quran' (Zoro was the one with the eye mask and sword) I never said Zoroaster was 'in the Quran' either. Where did I say that ? So your ' . NONE. ZERO. ZIP' is pure piddle. This is what you types do .... misquote and make up false facts about what people write and mean and then try to attack it as if it is one of their ideas .... keep going ; attack your own misconceptions ... if that makes you feel better.

 

You are a funny character. You can't seem to grasp ....whatever. You see what you want to see and take it where you want to take it.

[Nungali]

And I only see what I want to see ? ? ? !!

 

... cant YOU see what you are doing ...simple ... if you want to demonstrate the validity of what you claim show me where I said it !

Instead of doing that, you change your tac ... now your response isn't to answer that question again but to state that I am a funny fellow ???


But you wont be reasonable or follow even your own logical discussion will you ...make accusations, avoid the issue of backing them up, not answer a question that is clear and easy to understand about your accusation .... you will just keep trying to blame me for what you are actually doing ... not just in the posts but now in the whole context of your responses ... this will continue and expand into other parts of your life, if it hasn't already.

 

Maybe this will help explain it to you;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

[h.uriahr]

Your seemingly total inability to grasp what has clearly been explained to you several times reveals you prejudice. And stop saying 'Zoro is in the Quran' (Zoro was the one with the eye mask and sword) I never said Zoroaster was 'in the Quran' either. Where did I say that ? So your ' . NONE. ZERO. ZIP' is pure piddle. This is what you types do .... misquote and make up false facts about what people write and mean and then try to attack it as if it is one of their ideas .... keep going ; attack your own misconceptions ... if that makes you feel better.

 

Post #74, which is yours, IMPLIES that Zoro was mentioned in the Quran, obviously NOT by name.

[h.uriahr]

And I only see what I want to see ? ? ? !!

 

... cant YOU see what you are doing ...simple ... if you want to demonstrate the validity of what you claim show me where I said it !

Instead of doing that, you change your tac ... now your response isn't to answer that question again but to state that I am a funny fellow ???

But you wont be reasonable or follow even your own logical discussion will you ...make accusations, avoid the issue of backing them up, not answer a question that is clear and easy to understand about your accusation .... you will just keep trying to blame me for what you are actually doing ... not just in the posts but now in the whole context of your responses ... this will continue and expand into other parts of your life, if it hasn't already.

 

Maybe this will help explain it to you;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

 

I'm working off of an iPad so my patience grows thin trying to thumb type on this small, painful keyboard so I often times give up when trying to provide a rebuttal. Thanks a lot buddy.

[Nungali]

Again I didn't imply ... history and the actions of Muslims implied that for themselves by accepting Zoroastrians as people of a book. Otherwise they could have demanded they become Muslims . THEY made the implication ... again I didn't make the implication.

 

I distinctly posted that Zoroaster WAS NOT NAMED IN THE QURAN that is why they COULD considered as followers of one of the UNAMED PROPHETS in the Quran .

 

No he is NOT named in the Quran and NO I didn't say he was named in the Koran. I did not imply he was the one named in the Koran ... I am not presenting some new theory and making that claim to back it up ... that is what happened ... the Muslims made the connection ... they accepted Zoroastrians as people of an unknown prophet that was implied IN THE QURAN, they accepted the Avestas as Holy Books of those people from a Prophet from another era before Mohammad (Maybe even look at some of the Avestas even .... they are quiet acceptable to tolerant and just monotheists ( but not perhaps dogmatic fundamentalists}) .... they didn't draw their swords and demand they convert to Islam ... they became Dhimi ....

 

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=aeixHt4O6TQC&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=when+were+zoroastrians+made+people+of+the+book+in+Iran&source=bl&ots=99yE7WFszl&sig=5JCBjqtprU5NY9-OUBPQVU1Kxaw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=F_3MUoOXNIHhoASp-IDgDA&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=when%20were%20zoroastrians%20made%20people%20of%20the%20book%20in%20Iran&f=false

Edited January 8, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

See Quran 22:17 ... Magians ... the Magi ... "Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek: μάγος magos; Old Persian: maguš, Persian: مُغ‎ mogh; English singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean; Kurdish: manji) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BC, to denote followers of Zurvanism or Zoroaster."

 

Wiki

 

And also the Sabians are people of the Book ..... that is in 22:17 Sabians were Hemticists the Book they were a people of was the Corpus hermeticum ... that is how Hermetics passed into Islam and led to a bloom in its culture, tolerance, justice, fairness, brilliance in the sciences and jump forward in the evolution of human civilisation.

 

(My Iranian friends warned me that people in some western countries are quiet uneducated and have opinions that relate to this lack of education .... I think they were being too nice .... as most westerners now have access to the internet and one would think there is no excuse for lack of education except prejudice.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Nungali

[Isimsiz Biri]

Why? If God has sent many prophets why would they greatly contradict each other. In this view, God sends Prophets to build on the work of the past Prophets ... each time is different and needs cultural and social teachings ( that change, evolve and develop )and spiritual teachings (that don't change according to time )

 

Its all in the concept of 'progressive revelation' look that one up .

 

 

 

Yes, that is the 'religious believers' viewpoint ... I am not arguing with that (unless one clearly understands the nature of belief {which is an essential pre-component of Religious Studies) as this is not a thread about religious belief ... it is religious studies.

 

I am really bored to discuss with somebody who has never understood what has been going on Middle East.

 

If you believe in God and Prophet Moses, Prophet Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad are messengers of God, that means they got the divine information from God not from Zoroaster. We do not know whether Zoroaster was a Prophet or not. He may be or he may not be.

 

Coming to this Religious Studies issue, if you are a Pagan with an altar (you said it before), then all you can do is to reach bullshit results with bullshit theories.

 

If your secular Religious Studies is a multidisciplinary study based on history, geography and demography, the Semite language speaking socities (Jews, Arabs, Syriacs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_language)) never ever spoke Persian instead of their native languages. NEVER.

 

Culturally speaking, they are very very very different and independent.

[Isimsiz Biri]

See Quran 22:17 ... Magians ... the Magi ... "Magi (/ˈmeɪdʒaɪ/; Latin plural of magus; Ancient Greek: μάγος magos; Old Persian: maguš, Persian: مُغ‎ mogh; English singular magian, mage, magus, magusian, magusaean; Kurdish: manji) is a term, used since at least the 6th century BC, to denote followers of Zurvanism or Zoroaster."

 

Wiki

 

And also the Sabians are people of the Book ..... that is in 22:17 Sabians were Hemticists the Book they were a people of was the Corpus hermeticum ... that is how Hermetics passed into Islam and led to a bloom in its culture, tolerance, justice, fairness, brilliance in the sciences and jump forward in the evolution of human civilisation.

 

(My Iranian friends warned me that people in some western countries are quiet uneducated and have opinions that relate to this lack of education .... I think they were being too nice .... as most westerners now have access to the internet and one would think there is no excuse for lack of education except prejudice.

 

Holy Quran, Surat Al-Ĥaj (The Pilgrimage), 22^nd Sura, 17^th Ayah

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=22&verse=17

(22:17)

Sahih International: Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness.

Pickthall: Lo! those who believe (this revelation), and those who are Jews, and the Sabaeans and the Christians and the Magians and the idolaters - Lo! Allah will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection. Lo! Allah is Witness over all things.

Yusuf Ali: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

Shakir: Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associate (others with Allah)-- surely Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection; surely Allah is a witness over all things.

Muhammad Sarwar: On the Day of Judgment, God will make truth and falsehood clearly distinct from each other to the believers, the Jews, the Sabeans, the Christian, the Zoroastrians, and the Pagans on the Day of Judgment. God is a Witness to all things.

Mohsin Khan: Verily, those who believe (in Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad SAW), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians, and those who worship others besides Allah, truly, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allah is Witness over all things.

Arberry: Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, the Sabaeans, the Christians, the Magians and the idolaters -- God shall distinguish between them on the Day of Resurrection; assuredly God is witness over everything.

 

The word Magians (in Turkish "Mecusi") is the word used in Arabic to denote Zoroastrians. Etymologically the word comes from the priests of Zoroastrianism.

 

The Zoroastrianism were of course known as the religion of Iran during Prophet Muhammad's time. There were no Zoroastrians among Arabs only a few Iranians living in Arabia. The main concept was the trade and both Iranians and Arab traders traveled to each other countries by camels. That is all.

 

Your Iranian friends are very right. You Westerners do not understand Middle East at all.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Marblehead]

Your Iranian friends are very right. You Westerners do not understand Middle East at all.

Oh, don't sell us all short. Hehehe.

 

(Just wanted to let y'all know that I am still reading the thread, it's just that I have nothing to add at this point in the discussion.)