Zoroaster Created Judeo Christian Religions

[Nungali]

Those are going to be hard to find.

 

all right then .... relative benevolence ... at the time, this culture was blowing people away with new concepts in government and theology ... even when its ideas and later developed 'hermetic' philosophies was one of the streams of Alexandrian synthesis , it was deemed novel and highly evolved in that environment.

[Nungali]

Everybody, do not be misled by Nungali's posts. He is creating theories without knowing anything about culture and history of Middle East.

 

Prophet Abraham is a real person. He is the ancestor of both Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad.

 

If you know a little bit about Middle East, the Persians and Arabs/Jews are different origin of people and their cultures did not mix as they speak completely different languages from different family of languages.

 

Everybody do not be mislead by isimsiz bitterness , he is confusing people, culture and language with religion ; which is what I am talking about.

 

Again he defeats himself in his own argument as everyone knows Islam has people from all origins, cultures and language .

 

RELIGION IS NOT DEPENDANT ON THAT

 

And I am writing about religion

 

Of course some people will not like this post as it is about religious studies. When I did religious studies at Uni (Comparative Religion at Sydney University ) everyone but 3 made it to the last lecture ... people got up and walked out after arguing with the lecturer (The Senior lecturer in Divinity at the University)

 

It would go like this:

 

"That's not true! (insert your God's or prophet's name here) Does not say that, what you are teaching is false. The (insert the name of your religious scripture here) says something else ... and THAT is the truth"

 

<starts slamming books and folders together and packing up>

 

Lecturer: "If you leave now I cant pass you. Your church sent you here to learn this so you can be a (pastor, minister, etc,), if you don't finish the course, they wont let you become one."

 

<they storm off>

 

 

being deadly serious here - 3 left at the end ! lecturer said that was fairly normal.

 

 

 

“ Religious Studies is the academic field of multi-disciplinary, secular study of religious beliefs, behaviors, and institutions. It describes, compares, interprets, and explains religion, emphasizing systematic, historically based, and cross-cultural perspectives.

 

While theology attempts to understand the nature of transcendent or supernatural forces (such as deities), religious studies tries to study religious behavior and belief from outside any particular religious viewpoint.

 

Religious studies draws upon multiple disciplines and their methodologies including anthropology, sociology, psychology, philosophy, and history of religion.” (my emphasis)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_studies

 

http://sydney.edu.au/arts/religion/undergraduate/

 

 

Edited December 25, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

...

I'm diggin' the link Son.

...

 

Ooooo yeah! isimisiz DONT LOOK AT IT !.... warning .... naked ladies

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

:wub:Pinups Mythology

 

Says who? You?

[Isimsiz Biri]

I accept that as valid. That is why I have always wondered why there is so much hatred between the Arabs and the Jews.

 

 

No, no,

 

I mean the Persian or Iranian language is from Indo-European Languages group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages)

 

Both Jewish and Arabic belongs to Semitic Languages group. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages)

 

Jewish and Arabic are very close relatives.

 

What I try to emphasize is the Iranian and Arabic/Jewish are completely different languages.

 

Iranians do not like Arabs traditionally. If you call an Iranian as an Arab, he would perceive it as an insult.

 

So fantasies of Nungali has nothing to do with realities.

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

Everybody do not be mislead by isimsiz bitterness , he is confusing people, culture and language with religion ; which is what I am talking about.

 

Again he defeats himself in his own argument as everyone knows Islam has people from all origins, cultures and language .

 

RELIGION IS NOT DEPENDANT ON THAT

 

And I am writing about religion

 

Of course some people will not like this post as it is about religious studies. When I did religious studies at Uni (Comparative Religion at Sydney University ) everyone but 3 made it to the last lecture ... people got up and walked out after arguing with the lecturer (The Senior lecturer in Divinity at the University)

 

It would go like this:

 

"That's not true! (insert your God's or prophet's name here) Does not say that, what you are teaching is false. The (insert the name of your religious scripture here) says something else ... and THAT is the truth"

 

<starts slamming books and folders together and packing up>

 

Lecturer: "If you leave now I cant pass you. Your church sent you here to learn this so you can be a (pastor, minister, etc,), if you don't finish the course, they wont let you become one."

 

<they storm off>

 

 

being deadly serious here - 3 left at the end ! lecturer said that was fairly normal.

 

 

 

“ Religious Studies is the academic field of multi-disciplinary, secular study of religious beliefs, behaviors, and institutions. It describes, compares, interprets, and explains religion, emphasizing systematic, historically based, and cross-cultural perspectives.

 

While theology attempts to understand the nature of transcendent or supernatural forces (such as deities), religious studies tries to study religious behavior and belief from outside any particular religious viewpoint.

 

Religious studies draws upon multiple disciplines and their methodologies including anthropology, sociology, psychology, philosophy, and history of religion.” (my emphasis)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_studies

 

http://sydney.edu.au/arts/religion/undergraduate/

 

 

 

Nungali,

 

You may be a Pagan. No problem.

 

You may do witchcraft. Again no problem.

 

You will be judged like everybody else on the Day of Resurrection. So I really do not care.

 

My point is that you are speaking on subjects that you are not even aware of.

 

You told that Prophet Abraham is not a real person. To call your idea as absurd is not enough.

 

Again:

 

Prophet Abraham is a real person. He had two sons from two different wives. Prophet Isaac is the ancestor of all Jewish Prophets. (Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Jesus Christ) Prophet Ishmael is the ancestor of Prophet Muhammad. Thus, Prophet Abraham is common ancestor of both Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Jesus Christ.

 

Prophet Abraham and Prophet Ishmael constructed the walls of Kaaba around 1900-2000 B.C. on the existing foundation of Kaaba.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba)

Kaaba existed since the times of Prophet Adam and Eve. Its walls had been destructed in thousands of years but the foundation remained. Abraham and Ishmael used this existing foundation to raise the walls of Kaaba.

 

 

When Prophet Muhammad was born 2500 years after Prophet Abraham, there were people living in Arabia from the religion of Prophet Abraham. These peoples' religion was called as Hanif. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif) Hanif Religion people turned their faces to Kaaba and prayed. They existed for 2500 years (starting from 2000-1900 B.C. to 610 A.D.) Some of the rules of Hanif religion was forgotten due to very long time difference. Pay attention, I am talking about real people.

 

Again, do not be misled by Nungali.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Isimsiz Biri

[Marblehead]

What I try to emphasize is the Iranian and Arabic/Jewish are completely different languages.

 

Iranians do not like Arabs traditionally. If you call an Iranian as an Arab, he would perceive it as an insult.

 

So fantasies of Nungali has nothing to do with realities.

I understood what you were saying. Perhaps my response was not adequate.

[SonOfTheGods]

Says who? You?

 

<-- SonOfTheGods

 

(Blasphemer, Heretic, & all around Antichrist, Dajjal, Scapegoat, Azazel, etc.,Ad nauseam)

[SonOfTheGods]

Coming soon (for this thread):

 

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

<-- SonOfTheGods

 

(Blasphemer, Heretic, & all around Antichrist, Dajjal, Scapegoat, Azazel, etc.,Ad nauseam)

There is no God but Allah. So investigate whose son are you?

[SonOfTheGods]

There is no God but Allah. So investigate whose son are you?

 

1) demiurgedemonstormgodallahjehovahyahweh = same guy

+

2) same guy = myth

__________________

3) Myth

 

son of math

[Isimsiz Biri]

 

1) demiurgedemonstormgodallahjehovahyahweh = same guy

+

2) same guy = myth

__________________

3) Myth

 

son of math

You do not know mythology. No problem.

 

You do not know history. No problem.

 

You do not know religion. No problem.

 

You do not know yourself. No problem.

 

May be you learn next life time. If you do not learn next life time? No problem.

[Marblehead]

I'm glad I was out to lunch when this was going on.

[SonOfTheGods]

I'm glad I was out to lunch when this was going on.

I'm done.

 

Some people are just not destined to understand.

 

It is best not to push.

 

Next lifetime for them.

 

or not No Problem.

Edited December 25, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[Isimsiz Biri]

I'm done.

 

Some people are just not destined to understand.

 

It is best not to push.

 

Next lifetime for them.

 

or not No Problem.

Exactly. I am glad you looked at mirror. I am not pushing anyone who thinks Creator and Satan is the same being. Even RongzomFan is better than that.

[Nungali]

 

 

No, no,

 

I mean the Persian or Iranian language is from Indo-European Languages group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages)

 

Both Jewish and Arabic belongs to Semitic Languages group. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages)

 

Jewish and Arabic are very close relatives.

 

What I try to emphasize is the Iranian and Arabic/Jewish are completely different languages.

 

Iranians do not like Arabs traditionally. If you call an Iranian as an Arab, he would perceive it as an insult.

 

So fantasies of Nungali has nothing to do with realities.

They are not my fantasies and it is reality (of one view point).

 

What you call 'Persian or Iranian language' (modern) is Farsi ... it is a very beautiful language and is the language of poetry. It is from an Indo-Iranian language but I have been writing about Proto-Indo-European people language and culture. When P.I.E. people first came to Iran (ancient) they spoke Avestan, and some of their earliest scripture was written in Avestan script

 

http://www.iranchamber.com/scripts/images/avestan_alphabet_consonants.gif

 

today Farsi is mostly spoken in Iran ... there are other languages. Arabic and Farsi are not the same language, Arabic does not come from Iran or central Asia where the P.I.E. people came from. Arabic is a Semetic language ... that is easy to see as Hebrew and Arabic are so alike.

 

Persians or Iranian people are VERY different now, after Islamic Invasion and admixture of Semetic / Arabic people. Before Arab invasion Iranians were lighter and had a larger range of light hair colours and today, some still have bright piercing green eyes.

 

These people had advanced culture and started and maintained the largest Empire the world had yet seen . When they populated Iran and made the first large Iranian ' state' , which developed into a massive, Empire, remarkably large , for ancient history, this was way before the Arab invasion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire

 

I have very good friend who are Persians ... no- they do not like to be mistaken for Arabs or their language for Arabic. That would be like going to New Zealand and calling a Maori a 'coconut' (Pacific Islander) - you can get in a lot of trubs doing that cuz!

 

 

http://www.hssr.mmu.ac.uk/trauma/files/2013/02/once-were-warriors.jpg

 

 

So I do know what I am talking about.

 

But I don't know what you are talking about or what your comments have to do with me having a fantasy as no where did I say they were the same people or the same language.

 

Read Post 28 - I defined them as different people right at the beginning !

 

As some people cant seem to avoid ... they project their own meaning into what they think others are saying and they attack that opinion, even though they were the only person that said it .

 

 

If you read the post before rushing to criticize it you might have realised that.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

Persians or Iranian people are VERY different now,

 

I would even go so far to say that the Persians and the Iranians are very different people. Compare the cultures, they have almost nothing in common.

[Nungali]

I am not saying Persians and Iranians are very different people from each other (if that is what you meant) - historically.

 

I am saying "Persians or Iranians ( Persian/Iranian) are different now from that they used to be ... before the conquest of Muslim Arabs; they are of a different 'genetic stock' before the interbreeding post-conquest, after they became more mixed with the Arabs.

 

Before that they were separate groups that mixed together to form the Persian/Iranians

 

 

 

Ask many modern Iranians where they are from and they will say Persia (well over here any way). My friend who doesn't mind saying he is from Iran ... but will say he is Persian, and he tells people he speaks 'Persian' if asked (Farsi). Iran was the ancient name, Persia a 'modern' one, and more modern, back to Iran again.

 

It is interchangeable , there are differences technically but its complex;

 

Persians have generally been a pan-national group often comprising regional people who often refer to themselves as "Persians" and have also often used the term "Iranian" (in the ethnic-cultural sense). Some scholars, mechanically identifying the speakers of Persian as a distinct ethnic unit (the Persians), exclude those Iranians who speak dialects of Persian. However, this approach can be misleading, as historically all ethnic groups in Iran, were always referred to, collectively, as Iranians .

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/maps/iran_linguistic.htm

Edited December 27, 2013 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

I am not saying Persians and Iranians are very different people from each other (if that is what you meant) - historically.

 

 

But that was a point I was putting forth for consideration - that today's Iranians are a different people from the ancient Persians. It seems to me that the people who now identify themselves as Iranians are just a small subset of the peoples who used to call themselves Persians. And I would venture to say that this is because of the Moslem religion. The religion has held the people back from being the great people the Persians once were.

 

And as to the Farsi language; I have listened to some of the traditional music of the Frasi speaking peoples and it is a very beautiful language when put to music.

[Nungali]

At first (after conquest) the Muslims treated them very well and the Zoroastrians were considered 'People of the Book' , it was later when some nasties took over and changed the good religion (of the time) of Mohammad and introduced intolerance and started persecuting the Zorosastrians - cant remember their name ... late ... going to bed.

[Marblehead]

At first (after conquest) the Muslims treated them very well and the Zoroastrians were considered 'People of the Book' , it was later when some nasties took over and changed the good religion (of the time) of Mohammad and introduced intolerance and started persecuting the Zorosastrians - cant remember their name ... late ... going to bed.

Yeah, most of that knowledge I have is tied up in cob-webs in the back areas of my brain from the early 1980s. I don't get the chance to have an "honest" discussion of that part of the world. The Persians were once the world leaders in nearly all areas of the sciences. And you hit on an important concept - "intolerance".

 

Have a nice sleep. Talk with you later.

[SonOfTheGods]

The Persians were once the world leaders in nearly all areas of the sciences.

[Marblehead]

 

The Persians were once the world leaders in nearly all areas of the sciences.

Yeah, well, they didn't plan that event very well, did they?

 

And it was only after a Greek traitor told the Persians how to get behind them were they finally overcome.

[Nungali]

When the companions of the Prophet, on invading Persia, came in contact with the Zoroastrian people and learned these teachings, they at once came to the conclusion that Zoroaster was really a Divinely inspired prophet. Thus they accorded the same treatment to the Zoroastrian people which they did to other "People of the Book."

 

Though the name of Zoroaster is not mentioned in the Qur'an, still he was regarded as one of those prophets whose names have not been mentioned in the Qur'an, for there is a verse in the Qur'an: "And We did send apostles before thee: there are some of them that We have mentioned to thee and there are others whom We have not mentioned to Thee." (40 : 78). Accordingly the Muslims treated the founder of Zoroastrianism as a true prophet and believed in his religion as they did in other inspired creeds, and thus according to the prophecy, protected the Zoroastrian religion.

 

Islamic Ahmadiyya view:

Ahmadi Muslims view Zoroaster as Prophet of God and describes such expressions to be a concept which is similar to the concepts in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

The Zoroastrian Achaemenid Empire at its greatest extent was the largest ancient empire in recorded history at 8.0 million km2 (480 BCE).

 

Almost nothing is known of the status of Zoroastrianism under the Seleucids and Parthians, who ruled over Persia following Alexander the Great's invasion in 330 BCE. According to later Zoroastrian legend many sacred texts were lost when Alexander's troops invaded Persepolis and subsequently destroyed the royal library there. According to one archaeological examination, the ruins of the palace of Xerxes bear traces of having been burned. Whether a vast collection of (semi-)religious texts "written on parchment in gold ink", as suggested by the Denkard, actually existed remains a matter of speculation.

 

Late antiquity

When the Sassanid dynasty came into power in 228 CE, they aggressively promoted the Zurvanite form of Zoroastrianism and, in some cases, persecuted Christians. When the Sassanids captured territory, they often built fire temples there to promote their religion. After Constantine, the Sassanids were suspicious of Christians, not least because of their perceived ties to the Christian Roman Empire

 

Middle Ages

 

In the 7th century the Sassanid Empire was overthrown by the Arabs. Because of their sheer numbers, the conquered Zoroastrians had to be treated as dhimmis which made them eligible for protection. Thus, in the main, once the conquest was over and "local terms were agreed on", the Arab governors protected the local populations in exchange for tribute.

 

Thus, though subject to a new leadership and harassed, once the horrors of conquest were over, the Zoroastrians were able to continue in their former ways. There was, however, a slow but steady social and economic pressure to convert. The nobility and city-dwellers were the first to convert, with Islam more slowly being accepted among the peasantry and landed gentry. Power and worldly-advantage now lay with followers of Islam, and although the official policy was one of aloof contempt, there were individual Muslims eager to proselytize and ready to use all sorts of means to do so.

 

With Iranian support, the Abbasids overthrew the Umayyads in 750, and Muslim Iranians received marked favour in the new government, both in Iran and at the capital in Baghdad. The type of Islam the Abbasids propagated throughout Iran became in turn ever more "Zoroastrianized", making it easier for Iranians to embrace Islam.

 

The 9th century was the last in which Zoroastrians had the means to engage in creative work on a great scale, and the 9th century has come to define the great number of Zoroastrian texts that were composed or re-written during the 8th to 10th centuries. All of these works are in the Middle Persian dialect of that period (free of Arabic words), and written in the difficult Pahlavi script. Many of these texts are responses to the tribulations of the time, and all of them include exhortations to stand fast in their religious beliefs.

 

Under Abbasid rule, Muslim Iranians (who by then were in the majority) increasingly found ways to taunt Zoroastrians, and distressing them became a popular sport. For example, in the 9th century, a deeply venerated cypress tree in Khorasan (which Parthian-era legend supposed had been planted by Zoroaster himself) was felled for the construction of a palace in Baghdad, 2,000 miles (3,200 km) away.

 

In the 10th century, on the day that a Tower of Silence had been completed at much trouble and expense, a Muslim official contrived to get up onto it, and to call the adhan (the Muslim call to prayer) from its walls. This was made a pretext to annex the building. Another popular means to distress Zoroastrians was to maltreat dogs, as these animals are sacred in Zoroastrianism. Such baiting, which was to continue down the centuries, was indulged in by all; not only by high officials, but by the general uneducated population as well.

 

[it still exists; my Iranian friend had two dogs which he loved. His friends and family didn’t like it . “Why do you do that? Dog is Haram! “ Which is weird as they are not Muslim . I explained to him the earlier appreciation of Dog before Muslim invasion ( one of the Zoroastrian ‘angel’s is accompanied by a dog and they see Dog as the friend of mankind). ]

 

Despite these economic and social incentives to convert, Zoroastrianism remained strong in some regions, particularly in those furthest away from the Caliphate capital at Baghdad. In Bukhara (in present-day Uzbekistan), resistance to Islam required the 9th century Arab commander Qutaiba to convert his province four times. The first three times the citizens reverted to their old religion.

 

Finally, the governor made their religion "difficult for them in every way", turned the local fire temple into a mosque, and encouraged the local population to attend Friday prayers by paying each attendee two dirhams. The cities where Arab governors resided were particularly vulnerable to such pressures, and in these cases the Zoroastrians were left with no choice but to either conform or migrate to regions that had a more amicable administration.

 

Among these migrations were those to cities in (or on the margins of) the great salt deserts, in particular to Yazd and Kerman, which remain centres of Iranian Zoroastrianism to this day. Crucial to the present-day survival of Zoroastrianism was a migration to Gujarat, in western India. The descendants of that group are today known as the Parsisas, as the Gujaratis, from long tradition, called anyone from Iran — who today represent the larger of the two groups of Zoroastrians.

 

 

Yazd:

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Yazd&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=TP29Uo_SDojxoATtkoHgBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1059&bih=482

 

- because it is so beautiful

Edited December 27, 2013 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Anyway, to get back to the PIE peoples Homeland and a possible root source for a whole range of concepts including ‘Paradise’ paradise lost … and a ‘return to Eden’ ( or ‘new Jerusalem’) , instead of writing and posting link pictures, just go to this site’s section on it. Well written, great pics maps, targeting the location of ‘Shamballa’ of many traditions . compares old Buddhist schematic maps of the place ( check that against a modern map of the Pamirs region in Tajikistan

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/maps/pamir.htm

) etc; academic and well referenced ;

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm

 

As I said previously … this is one view.

 

For variant views a good starting point might be ;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urheimat

Edited December 27, 2013 by Nungali