Zoroaster Created Judeo Christian Religions

[Isimsiz Biri]

They are not my fantasies and it is reality (of one view point).

 

What you call 'Persian or Iranian language' (modern) is Farsi ... it is a very beautiful language and is the language of poetry. It is from an Indo-Iranian language but I have been writing about Proto-Indo-European people language and culture. When P.I.E. people first came to Iran (ancient) they spoke Avestan, and some of their earliest scripture was written in Avestan script

 

http://www.iranchamber.com/scripts/images/avestan_alphabet_consonants.gif

 

today Farsi is mostly spoken in Iran ... there are other languages. Arabic and Farsi are not the same language, Arabic does not come from Iran or central Asia where the P.I.E. people came from. Arabic is a Semetic language ... that is easy to see as Hebrew and Arabic are so alike.

 

Persians or Iranian people are VERY different now, after Islamic Invasion and admixture of Semetic / Arabic people. Before Arab invasion Iranians were lighter and had a larger range of light hair colours and today, some still have bright piercing green eyes.

 

These people had advanced culture and started and maintained the largest Empire the world had yet seen . When they populated Iran and made the first large Iranian ' state' , which developed into a massive, Empire, remarkably large , for ancient history, this was way before the Arab invasion.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire

 

I have very good friend who are Persians ... no- they do not like to be mistaken for Arabs or their language for Arabic. That would be like going to New Zealand and calling a Maori a 'coconut' (Pacific Islander) - you can get in a lot of trubs doing that cuz!

 

 

http://www.hssr.mmu.ac.uk/trauma/files/2013/02/once-were-warriors.jpg

 

 

So I do know what I am talking about.

 

But I don't know what you are talking about or what your comments have to do with me having a fantasy as no where did I say they were the same people or the same language.

 

Read Post 28 - I defined them as different people right at the beginning !

 

As some people cant seem to avoid ... they project their own meaning into what they think others are saying and they attack that opinion, even though they were the only person that said it .

 

 

If you read the post before rushing to criticize it you might have realised that.

 

Again, you do not know Middle East history and/or geography.

 

Judaism and Christianity are based on Prophets (although distorted) teachings. Zoroaster has nothing to do with establishment of these religions.

 

Feeding dogs inside the house is Makruh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makruh) not Haram.

Feeding the dog in the garden without letting it enter the house is all right.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Isimsiz Biri

[Marblehead]

I am trying very hard to stay out of the disagreements that naturally result from the topic discussion.

 

That's one of the down sides of religions, everyone wants "their" religion to be the only "true" religion.

[Isimsiz Biri]

I am trying very hard to stay out of the disagreements that naturally result from the topic discussion.

 

That's one of the down sides of religions, everyone wants "their" religion to be the only "true" religion.

 

 

The claim that Zaroaster created Judaism and Christianity belongs to Nungali, not to Zoroastrianism.

[Marblehead]

The claim that Zaroaster created Judaism and Christianity belongs to Nungali, not to Zoroastrianism.

That is true but it is still a theory worthy of discussion.

[Isimsiz Biri]

That is true but it is still a theory worthy of discussion.

 

If one speaks of real knowledge, Of Course!

[Marblehead]

If one speaks of real knowledge, Of Course!

Yes, it is important that we question what we read and hear from others. I think Zarathustra spoke pretty well to this.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Yes, it is important that we question what we read and hear from others. I think Zarathustra spoke pretty well to this.

 

 

If you are speaking of Nungali's fantasies, they are simply not correct. They contain some true information yet the results are very far from truth.

[Marblehead]

If you are speaking of Nungali's fantasies, they are simply not correct.

I won't get into that part of the discussion.

 

They contain some true information yet the results are very far from truth.

We each find our own truths, don't we?

[Isimsiz Biri]

I won't get into that part of the discussion.

 

We each find our own truths, don't we?

 

If it is history, demographics and geography there is no place for fantasies.

[Marblehead]

If it is history, demographics and geography there is no place for fantasies.

But these fantasies still exist in the mind of many people.

 

It is so hard sometimes to distinguish between fact and fantasy.

[Isimsiz Biri]

But these fantasies still exist in the mind of many people.

 

It is so hard sometimes to distinguish between fact and fantasy.

 

I agree. It is sometimes difficult.

[Nungali]

 

Again, you do not know Middle East history and/or geography.

 

Judaism and Christianity are based on Prophets (although distorted) teachings. Zoroaster has nothing to do with establishment of these religions.

 

Feeding dogs inside the house is Makruh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makruh) not Haram.

Feeding the dog in the garden without letting it enter the house is all right.

Just asserting things doesn't really cut it. You tried to respond but didn't intelligently address my many valid points ... this cat-calling and heckling ... why not try a different or relevant approach ?

 

Zoroaster was considered a prophet by Islam itself ... read the post above.

 

Your comments about dogs are irrelevant to the point I was making ... in your haste to criticise, you miss the points of argument yet again.

 

In relation to the 'religious viewpoint' any study in comparative religion must be done ASIDE from that view point ... otherwise one gets nowhere and bogged down in personal religious opinion ... which is NOIT a valid way of studying a subject objectively.

[Nungali]

 

 

The claim that Zaroaster created Judaism and Christianity belongs to Nungali, not to Zoroastrianism.

.ABSOLUTLY WRONG AGAIN !

 

You are not reading the posts and again missing out on the points of what I AM saying in your rush to criticise what you think I am saying.

 

 

The thread title and OP said that . Not Nungali.

 

It is indeed incorrect to state that Zoroaster created Judaism and Christianity. I have never said that anywhere.

 

Show me where I said that !

 

[ See post 3, 5 , 8 , 9 (particularly the first paragraph ), 12, 15 for a start. ]

Edited January 2, 2014 by Nungali

[h.uriahr]

Just asserting things doesn't really cut it. You tried to respond but didn't intelligently address my many valid points ... this cat-calling and heckling ... why not try a different or relevant approach ?Zoroaster was considered a prophet by Islam itself ... read the post above.Your comments about dogs are irrelevant to the point I was making ... in your haste to criticise, you miss the points of argument yet again.In relation to the 'religious viewpoint' any study in comparative religion must be done ASIDE from that view point ... otherwise one gets nowhere and bogged down in personal religious opinion ... which is NOIT a valid way of studying a subject objectively.

 

If the Quran doesn't use Zoroaster by name then how can you be so sure it is speaking about him?

[Nungali]

But these fantasies still exist in the mind of many people.

 

It is so hard sometimes to distinguish between fact and fantasy.

I am sorry Marblehead but you seem to have been led off to a side track here by IB posting false assumtions about this thread. see my posts above. Also these are valid theories often discussed by academnics. I have supplied links to these and anyone can follow them up.

 

Again, it is religious studies so ones insistence about their religious beliefs are immaterial.

 

I am presenting A theory. And even I am not insisting it is THE theory or truth of the matter.

 

As in the PIE peoples theories I posted a link to it and the other theories being looked at , at present (and their considered validity.

 

IB feels personally threatened because of his religious persuasions and belief systems

 

Time and time again I have demonstrated him as one who criticises without being familiar with what is actually written by me, and others and in the links and references provided.

 

Next posts will be on academic studies that show the transference of ideas and root concepts from the Zoroastrian teachings into Judaism , Christianity and Islam.

 

Again; I am NOT saying that Zoroaster created Judaism and Christianity , never have and never will. The thread title says that (and I didn't write it) ... Isimsiz Biri is the one saying Nungali says that ... Nungali does not say that. Isimsiz Biri feels threatened and so tries to disrupt and corrupt the information ... don't be tricked by him and remember our focus here.

 

The overall focus in religious studies (for me) is to enable some people to realise we ARE NOT that different after all and share root concepts that have differentiated over time and location ... but 'some' will just NOT have that will they? They support division and intolerance.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

If the Quran doesn't use Zoroaster by name then how can you be so sure it is speaking about him?

For a general answer read post 74. (I am not going to repeat it)/

 

For more specific detailed answers ask me a question about the information in post 74.

 

Basically there are a whole lot of people that Mohammad acknowledged as valid prophets and religious teachers. (Even the Hermetic books and philosophy and the religion of the 'Sabians' of Harran.)

 

The 'proof' is that when the Muslims encountered these people they recognised them and gave them validity according to the instructions from Mohammad.

 

 

I am not the one who needs to be sure ... it is not my decision or finding, it is the decision and finding of the followers of the Prophet themselves. They were the ones who decided WHO these people were and Mohammad himself was the one who said they do exist.

[h.uriahr]

For a general answer read post 74. (I am not going to repeat it)/For more specific detailed answers ask me a question about the information in post 74.Basically there are a whole lot of people that Mohammad acknowledged as valid prophets and religious teachers. (Even the Hermetic books and philosophy and the religion of the 'Sabians' of Harran.)The 'proof' is that when the Muslims encountered these people they recognised them and gave them validity according to the instructions from Mohammad.I am not the one who needs to be sure ... it is not my decision or finding, it is the decision and finding of the followers of the Prophet themselves. They were the ones who decided WHO these people were and Mohammad himself was the one who said they do exist.

 

Ok so if he's not mentioned in the Islamic Holy Book then how can you be so sure that it references him?? Your post didnt back that up. It brings up a possibility but not a certainty.

[h.uriahr]

And an acknowledgement wouldn't translate as "he provided the foundation for such and such religion". It would mean that he knows Truth. The Bible speaks on those who have the Law without having the Scriptures.

[Nungali]

Ok so if he's not mentioned in the Islamic Holy Book then how can you be so sure that it references him?? Your post didnt back that up. It brings up a possibility but not a certainty.

 

Hmmm ... I already said that ... read carefully;

 

It was the followers of Mohammad that decided that Zoroastrians were 'people of a book' and had a valid religion and a prophet and that was sanctioned by THEIR understanding of the Koran.

 

Like I said, this is explained already if you have a question about the info in post 74 and you want to pose that question I will try to answer it

 

But I am certainly no expert on WHY those Muslims did that, although it appears expedient, circumstantial, partially political, and common sense IMO .... read the other post again and think about the numbers and the implication of them being classified as dhimmi or non dhimmi.

[Nungali]

And an acknowledgement wouldn't translate as "he provided the foundation for such and such religion". It would mean that he knows Truth. The Bible speaks on those who have the Law without having the Scriptures.

Take it up with the Koran ... Mohammed decided not to name them all ... don't demend from me a proof Mohammed would not give. he left it up to his followers to discern. He didn't say, 'unless I mention them by name they are not prophets' did he? YOU are demanding that, not me, Moslems or Mohmmad are demanding that.

 

Also it isn't a question of the ancient people themselves knowing the ancient history of their own past, which would have been before modern research, new findings of texts, and versions, acheological sites and so on. You may as well counter with ' well Adam never spoke of Evoulution.

 

This is not a religious argument - it is a presentation of one academic view of religious studies and comparative religion which, I already pointed out, is a bonafide study must be limited by parameters to maintain it as such.

 

Again ... it is not ME that decided Zoroastrians were a people of the book.

[Nungali]

The other religions that Zoroastrianism ( or the original pre-Zoroastrian religions, i.e. the religion of the proto Indo European – people’s PIE ) influenced were the Western Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and Eastern Dharmic (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism) religious traditions. They imported a range of concepts into these religions including God, the Devil, sexual equality, evolution, Paradise , environmentalism, and the concept of the free will...

 

"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." - Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1979, p. 1)

 

"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence....” - Mary Boyce, Op. Cit. p. 29.

 

From wiki

 

Zoroastrianism is uniquely important in the history of religion because of its formative links to both Western Abrahamic and Eastern Dharmic religious traditions.

 

 

Some scholars (Boyce, 1987; Black and Rowley, 1987; Duchesne-Guillemin, 1988) assert that key concepts of Zoroastrian eschatology and demonology are evident in the Abrahamic religions, for instance in the Asmodai of Judaism.

 

 

 

For example, one of the popular strains within Zoroastrianism considers both good and evil as creations of God. According to historians, this is a doctrine that influenced Christianity and notwithstanding the great deal of exposition in order to not compromise Zoroaster's otherwise coherent concept of Free Will, has a widespread following...

 

 

Zoroastrianism, though small in number of adherents, is the original religion of tens of millions of Shi'a Iranians, Sunni Kurds and the Parsee of India. These populations still celebrate Zoroastrian holidays, still honor their Zoroastrian roots and, in many cases, have expressed a yearning to go back to the precepts which were noted for their tolerance of other faiths and commitment to coexistence, a point of view that is lacking in many parts of the regions where they live.

 

Many aspects of Zoroastrianism are in turn present in the culture and mythologies of the peoples of the Greater Iran, not least because Zoroastrianism, for a thousand years, was a dominant influence on the people of the cultural continent. Even after the rise of Islam and the loss of direct influence, Zoroastrianism remains part of the cultural heritage of the Iranian language-speaking world, in part as festivals and customs [...] which in turn is pivotal to Iranian identity.

If you want to understand the Iranians, the Kurds, the Parsi of India and the source concepts of the religions that both east and west call their own, an exploration of Zoroastrianism can be invaluable.

 

 

 

Zoroastrianism is, first and foremost, a environmentalist religion. The purity of the earth, water and air is paramount to the founding precepts and the adherents are bound, by scripture, to protect nature in all its glory. This is also evidenced by Zoroastrianism's specific holidays, which fall on the equinoxes and solstices, as celebrations of the natural cycles of the earth .

 

 

 

Basic Zoroastrian precepts

• Equalism: Equality of all, irrespective of gender, race, or religion.

• Respect and kindness towards all living things. Condemnation of the oppression of human beings, cruelty against animals and sacrifice of animals.

• Environmentalism: Nature is central to the practice of Zoroastrianism and many important Zoroastrian annual festivals are in celebration of nature: new year on the first day of spring, the water festival in summer, the autumn festival at the end of the season, and the mid-winter fire festival.

• Hard work and charity: Laziness and sloth are frowned upon. Zoroastrians are encouraged to part with a little of what would otherwise be their own.

• Loyalty and faithfulness to "family, settlement, tribe, and country."

 

Zoroastrianism's most sacred prayer

The Ahunwar (in Avestan):

 

ýathâ ahû vairyô

athâ ratush ashâtcît hacâ

vanghêush dazdâ mananghô

shyaothananãm anghêush mazdâi

xshathremcâ ahurâi â

ýim drigubyô dadat vâstârem!!

 

Translation:

 

The will of the Lord is the law of righteousness.

The gifts of Vohu-mano [humanity] to the deeds done in this world for Mazda [God].

He who relieves the poor makes Ahura [God] king

He who relieves the poor makes Ahura [God] king...

 

And then there are those ancient legal codes within the Avesta that prohibited slavery, allowed for anyone, king to poorest, to bring another before a court, required that men were responsible for women they impregnated (and the child) throughout their lifetimes, codified that women could own land and divorce without question, prohibited animal and human sacrifice.........

 

 

The supreme being is called Ahura Mazda (Phl. Ohrmazd), meaning "Wise Lord." Ahura Mazda is all good, and created the world and all good things, including people. He is opposed by Anghra Mainyu (Phl. Ahriman), meaning "Destructive Spirit," the embodiment of evil and creator of all evil things. The cosmic battle between good and evil will ultimately lead to the destruction of all evil.

Religious observances

 

Religious observances include the wearing of sacred garments, a sudreh (shirt) and kusti (cord or belt). There is a cleansing ritual known as the Padyab, where an adherent reties the kusti several times a day with another short ritual called the Nirang-i Kusti.

 

Prayer is in the Avestan language and is performed several times a day either facing fire or the sun as representative of the spirit of God.

 

Birthdays are honored and celebrated with gifts and ritual, as are the birth of children, which includes gifts to both the mother and child.

 

There are several festivals throughout the year (mostly falling on equinoxes and solstices). The modern Newroz (New Year) festival in both the Iranian and Kurdish culture is a primary Zoroastrian event.

 

A black Zoroastrian skullcap, known as a fenta, is thought to have influenced the use of the kippah (yarmulke) in Judaism, as well as the head coverings in both the Catholic and Islamic faiths.

 

 

There are admonitions against sex with a women during menstruation, rape and sodomy; similar to the same prohibitions you see in the Bible.

 

The difference is the responsibility the perpetrator had toward those he involved and/or violated. This is a very interesting part of the religion, in that, if a man impregnated a woman (rape or not), he was responsible for her and her child's well being for life.

 

The sodomy prohibition was interesting, as well, in that it prohibited the practice among Zoroastrians (the punishment was a lashing), while it was specified that such judgment was not allowed against anyone who was not Zoroastrian, as they had a right to their own beliefs and practices.

 

You see this point of view throughout the scripture and the precepts; the requirement that Zoroastrians neither judge nor evangelize against other belief systems, which led to a tolerant religious environment and coexistence between faiths that was hitherto unseen in the ancient world.

 

 

The beginning and the end, the creator of everything which can and cannot be seen, the Eternal, the Pure and the only Truth. In the Gathas, the most sacred texts of Zoroastrianism and thought to have been composed by Zoroaster himself, the prophet acknowledged devotion to no other divinity besides Ahura Mazda

There is debate as to whether Zoroastrianism is a monotheistic or dualistic religion. Zoroastrians consider it monotheistic because Ahura Mazda is specified as the only and supreme god. Others cite the fact that Ahura Mazda and his opponent Angra Mainya (which means angry spirit/destructive principle) being perceived as uncreated beings locked in a battle of good vs. evil, means that Zoroastrianism is a dualistic faith.

 

Zoroastrians point out that Zoroaster's writings, the Gathas; the first poems of the Zoroastrian scripture and the only part of the scripture known to be written by Zoroaster himself, specifies Ahura Mazda as the one god and that such suppositions are misinterpretations of the later texts.

 

Zoroastrians also point out that, as dualism means worshiping more than one god, and since they would never worship an angry spirit that is equivalent to the devil, the designation does not apply to them anyway.

 

Not in dispute: Zoroastrianism was the only other religion of its time (approx 1700-1000 BCE) to believe in a single omniscient and supreme being besides Judaism; at a time that the Hebrew tribes were still forming their beliefs. Those beliefs had an opportunity to influence one another in the sixth century, BCE, when the tribe of Judah was exiled to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar (hanging gardens' fame), where their leading citizen, Daniel (of the Lion's Den Fame) interacted with the Zoroastrian king of Anshan (Iran), Cambyses I, his son, Cyrus the Great and Cyrus' successor, Darius the Great.

 

It was at that time, when the first ten books of the Bible were being transcribed from the tribe's oral history to text, that many Zoroastrian precepts were thought to have entered the belief systems of the tribe of Judah in Babylon and of the lost tribe of Ephraim, which was in Anshan (Iran) following their exile from Israel years earlier by the Assyrian King, Tiglath Pileser III (their descendants being Iranian Jews).

 

Influence on other religions and societies

 

As specified above, Zoroastrianism is thought to have greatly influenced Judaism, specifically through the prophet Daniel's close association with the Achaeamenid kings (Cambyses I, Cyrus the Great, Cambyses II and Darius the Great).

 

Two locations claim Daniel's tomb. One, in Kirkuk, is venerated by the Iraqi Kurds who see Daniel as a great man who both served and influenced their Zoroastrian ancestors. The other is in Susa, the former king seat of Darius the Great, in southwestern Iran; a place where Daniel is known to have lived when he was in Darius' service as an adviser to his court.

 

It is interesting to note that Iranians still lay flowers on Daniel's tomb. They do the same with the tomb of Esther, the Jewish wife of Xerxes the Great. They are aware that the founder of Iran, Cyrus the Great, returned the tribe of Judah from their enslavement in Babylon to the city of Jerusalem, along with the funds to rebuild their temple and a promise of protection; a promise which he and his predecessors kept until their overthrow by Alexander the Great two centuries later.

 

It is also interesting that Iran's major holidays are almost all Zoroastrian events. The influence of Zoroastrianism on Islam and the Iranian culture is profound. Again, the quote from wiki:

Many aspects of Zoroastrianism are in turn present in the culture and mythologies of the peoples of the Greater Iran, not least because Zoroastrianism, for a thousand years, was a dominant influence on the people of the cultural continent. Even after the rise of Islam and the loss of direct influence, Zoroastrianism remained part of the cultural heritage of the Iranian language-speaking world, in part as festivals and customs but also because Ferdowsi incorporated a number of the figures and stories from the Avesta in his epic Shāhnāme, which in turn is pivotal to Iranian identity.

In addition, Zoroastrianism is thought to have influenced eastern Dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. This is expressed through the Vedic texts of Dharma, a Sanskrit word that means both 'fixed decree, law, duty' and 'natural law, reality':

Like the historical Vedic religion, which is the historical predecessor of Hinduism, Zoroastrianism also derives from the religious principles of Indo-Iranian times. As such, and although Zoroastrianism is not considered a Dharmic religion, it is not surprising to find fundamental concepts similar to dharma and rta in the [earlier] Gathas as well.

Zoroaster (Thus Spake Zarathushtra)

"The prophet Zarathushtra, son of Pourushaspa, of the Spitaman family, is known to us primarily from the Gathas, seventeen great hymns which he composed and which have been faithfully preserved by his community. These are not works of instruction, but inspired, passionate utterances, many of them addressed directly to God; and their poetic form is a very ancient one, which has been traced back (through Norse parallels) to Indo-European times. It seems to have been linked with a mantic tradition, that is, to have been cultivated by priestly seers who sought to express in lofty words their personal apprehension of the divine; and it is marked by subtleties of allusion, and great richness and complexity of style.

 

Boyce - Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices, London, 1979, pg 17.

 

Zoroastrianism, the religion as revealed by the prophet Zoroaster would go on to become the predominant world religion for a thousand years, until the rise of Islam pushed it into the subconscious and cultural memory of the Iranian and Kurdish peoples.

 

Zoroastrianism also followed the Iranian exiles, those who fled Islamic persecution and forced conversion, east to India. These exiles are now known as the Parsi a close knit Zoroastrian community that is one of the few to hold on to all the old rituals and to follow the scripture as written.

 

Zoroastrianism in Western Academia

 

Much of the western understanding of Zoroastrianism comes from the early Greek writers, most specifically, Herodotus. This presents a problem because both he had reason to overlook the positive in favor of the difference and/or misunderstandings of the faith.

 

To understand why, it helps to look at what was happening between east and west where he lived.

 

Herodotus was from Ionian Greece (western Turkey) at a time when the Achaeamenid kings, Darius and Xerxes, were campaigning against Greece. During Darius' campaign, the city of Miletus (modern Bodrum), the seat of Greek philosophy, revolted against their Persian overlords and was burned to the ground.

 

The importance of Miletus cannot be underestimated in the hearts of Greeks. It was the home of Thales the Sage, the father of philosophy who had opened the first Greek academy of higher learning, where his students included Pythagoras and Anaximander and his colleagues, Solon and Aesop.

 

To quote Aristotle: All thought began with Thales.

 

Needless to say, after that, the Greeks were not inclined to publicized positive information about their adversaries' faith.

 

In addition, there has been some confusion in reading the sacred texts (the first five books of Zoroaster) as also including the later Pahlavi texts, rather than seeing the latter as commentary and religious studies.

 

 

The most well known Zoroastrians are not even known as Zoroastrians. These are the three wise men, the Magi, from the bible who brought presents to Jesus at his birth. The Magi were the priestly caste of the Medes (Kurds) who were the clerics of the Zoroastrian faith within their culture.

 

 

 

Zoroastrianism is a founding belief system acknowledged to have heavily influenced both Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) and Dharmic (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism) religions.

 

 

More information about Zoroastrianism:

 

Avesta -- Zoroastrian Archives

 

Wiki on Zoroastrianism

 

Livius (Dutch author Jona Lendering's incredible historical site) on the:

Avesta, Zoroastrianism, Zoroaster, the Achaeamenids and his complete index on Persia.

 

Recommended reading: Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians

 

 

 

 

http://op-ed.the-environmentalist.org/2007/04/zoroastrianisms-influence-on-judaism.html

 

“ Zoroastrianism had many impacts on other religions after Persia spread under the rule of Cyrus the Great and conquered the abutting countries.

 

Christianity was another religion which was beget after the death of Jesus. It was said that Jesus was the Messiah and the son of god, who would come and aid mankind and save them from doom. There are many similarities between Christianity and Zoroastrianism which can easily be spotted, since Zoroastrianism was one of the largest influences upon Christianity. Among the many similarities between both religions one of them is, they're both dualistic. As mentioned, Zoroastrianism was considered a dualistic religion as it had to do with the fight between Ahura Mazda, truth and good will, and Angra Mainyu, wickedness and corruption .

 

Zoroastrianism states that Ahura Mazda is to always fight against its creation, Angra Mainyu in order to make Earth a cloister. This is very similar to the concept of Christianity, the battle between God and the Devil, otherwise known as good and evil. The basis of the dilemma between good and evil in Christianity and Zoroastrianism can be seen as similar as well.

 

In Christianity, the altercation between God and the Devil is said to have began after Lucifer was expelled from Heaven after disobeying God, leading to the fight between both. In Zoroastrianism, after the birth of Angra Mainyu, a fight arose between Ahura Mazda and its creation as Angra Mainyu wanted to have control over everything. Although these are some of the larger influences that Zoroaster's beliefs had on Christianity there is one more which is very noticeable. The concept which was passed from Zoroastrianism to Christianity was, the belief of that in the end good will subdues evil, and everything will come to an end. In Zoroastrianism, it states that after 12,000 years of battle Ahura Mazda will prevail over the wicked, in which everything will then undergo a catharsis and time will cease to exist. This is seen in Christianity which says that at one point in time, God will conquer the Devil and the Messiah will come and collect all the souls which have fought for the greater good .

 

These are the many influences that Zoroaster's concepts have had on Christianity.

 

Zoroastrianism is very influential to other religions as well, not just to Christianity. Through the practices of Judaism we can see that Zoroaster's concepts impacted it greatly. For example, we can see that they both believed in angels. One major similarity between both was that Zoroastrianism explained that a saviour would come to save all those who believed in Ahura Mazda. This is strikingly alike to the belief in Judaism which assumed that eventually a Messiah would come in the aid of the Jews. We believe that Zoroastrianism's belief in the Saoshyant later influenced the Jewish belief that a Messiah was fated to come and save those who were faithful .

 

All in all, it was clear that Zoroastrianism was very influential towards Christianity and Judaism, which is why we can acknowledge the countless similarities between the three. “ see Wiki. For references.

 

“However, we do know of similarities and influences, that the Path of Loving Good Thinking shares, or has had on other paths. In the East it seems to be more a case of similarities, some uncanny, between TheTeaching ofThe Saviors.and the Oriental religions. Early Hinduism and the old Aryan pre Zarathushtian religion are practically the same. Afterwards, they did part ways, but they share a set of similar cultural assumptions. There is Rta and its almost duplicate, Asha. There is Karma and there is the Principle of Return in Ashi, which is a part of Asha. Both religions highly value Fire and both use the Kushti (girdle or cord). In fact, a food case can be made that the latter Hindu doctrine of reincarnation comes from the Gathas, it certainly does not exist in the Rig Veda.” See a historical overview here http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/discussions_10.html

 

“The case in the West is one of influence. When scholars study the Old Testament, they find a disparity between the Jewish doctrines in pre-exilic and Jewish doctrines in post- exilic Judaism. Pre-Exilic Judaism was a minority religion in the Northern Kingdom and maybe also in Judea, since most Israelites and large numbers of Judeans were either totally Pagan or semi Pagan.

 

Outside some Psalms and Job (believed to be post- exilic), pre-exilic Judaism is missing some important doctrines that are cardinal in Post-exilic Judaism. Satan, the Resurrection, Hell and Heaven. What change came over the religion in the exile years and where did this change originate? There are some rather large hints in the Bible itself and in the Gathic and post Gathic Persian literature.

 

It is a known fact that king Nebuchednezar exiled the Jews to Babylon, after his conquest of Jerusalem in 587 BC. This was a traumatic experience for the Jews. They could understand the exile in terms of Yahweh's judgment of His people, but what of the future? Were the Jews to be abandoned? And why did the God of Israel let foreigners destroy them? They could understand Yahweh's wrath, but why use the Gentiles and their gods to punish Israel?

 

“ Those Jews who had not been seduced by the Baals, had always believed Yahweh to be exclusively 'their' God. Now faced with disaster, the beliefs of Jews were shaken. Through their years in exile, they became exposed to other belief systems and in a process of spiritual catharsis, they came to reform and adopt some of them. Because of their situation as an enslaved people, this process was inevitable and might have resulted in their eventual assimilation. It is at this, their most trying moment, that they came into contact with a civilization and a religion that was to shape their destiny, both as a national entity and as a religion.

 

“In 539 BC, Cyrus The Great, Emperor of Persia, conquered Babylon. The effect of this conquest on the Jewish captivity was to have monumental repercussions in world history.

 

Cyrus was a practicing believer in the Zoroastrian religion. His exceedingly kind and farsighted rule has been attributed the result of his religious beliefs. For the Jews accustomed to harsher Babylonian rule, this leniency showed by Cyrus must have come as a surprise. Cyrus was not content with being a benevolent ruler, driven perhaps by his religious beliefs, perhaps by an uncommon political wisdom, Cyrus set about righting the wrongs committed by the Babylonians upon their defeated victims. It was the Jews that were to make this policy of Cyrus famous. But listen to the Bible:

 

"And He (Yahweh) says of Cyrus; He is my shepherd, and he will accomplish everything that I want, he will say to Jerusalem You shall be built, and her ruins I shall rebuilt. So does Yahweh say to His anointed, to Cyrus, I have taken you by your right hand, that you might submit nations before you and undo the sustenance of kings; to have doors open in front of you, which doors shall not be closed. I will go before you, and I will straighten all the crooks on your paths; I will smash to pieces bronze doors (for you) and (for you) I shall shatter locks of iron. I shall give you the hidden treasures, and the most guarded secrets..." Isaiah 44:28 - 45:3. (NRSV)

 

“To understand, the import of the above passage we must understand its meaning in the Jewish context. For the Jews, the Gentiles were impure; they were not to associate with them outside business or casual contact. Now there is a prophet of God, extolling the virtues of a Gentile king, and conferring upon him, specific Jewish religious titles! When a prophet of Yahweh calls Cyrus His shepherd, the religious implications had to be mind-boggling. A shepherd in this context is a religious and political leader of Israel, a national hero like David. One that was appointed by Yahweh Himself!! This amounts to installing Cyrus and through him all the following Persian emperors as super kings and priests over Israel.

 

“There is no questioning Cyrus for he has "...been taken by his right hand..." by Yahweh Himself!! In addition Yahweh calls Cyrus "my anointed". This is a very specific and technical Jewish religious term. The 'anointed' in Jewish religion were the kings of Israel, their prophets and the high priests (Lev. 8:12, 1 Sam. 9:16, 10:1, 16:13, 2Chr 23:11, 1Kings 1:39 etc.); this verifies our interpretations of the term 'shepherd'. But this is not the only implication here, anointed in the Hebrew is Messiah. Messiah in turn is the Jewish word translated into Greek as Christos or in English Christ. Yahweh has anointed Cyrus as king, priest and savior over Israel; this gives Cyrus total authority over Israel in all matters, political as well as religious.

 

“If we include the fact that Cyrus, according to Zarathushtrian theology would, as head of state, also be the protector of the latter day version of Zarathushtra's teachings, we can begin to appreciate Yahweh's statement. For with this statement Judaism comes under the authority (by God's stated will) of the Persian Empire and religion. This is confirmed when Judaism goes on to adopt many doctrines of Zoroastrianism. The Devil, the after life, "good" people go to a "heaven" and "evil" doers go to a place of punishment. These are places which are identical to the "Best" and "Worst" Existences of the latter day version of Zarathushtra's teachings in the Gathas.

 

“Doctrines belonging to Zarathushtra´s followers, such as resurrection of the dead, were accepted at this time, at least by the Persian faction, which came to be known as Pharisees (from Persians, Pharsees). More doctrines such as the coming savior became part of Judaism. All these doctrines were to pass from Judaism into Christianity and Islam.

 

“It is interesting to point out that the Qumram sect, responsible for the Dead Sea Scrolls, was a Zoroastrian heretic group, as can be seen by studying the sect's documents. Specifically their doctrines of the two spirits and the two ways. Other influences on Christianity and Islam include, but are not limited to, Islam's 5 prayer times, Muhammad's Night Journey to Jerusalem and Heaven and the Sarat Bridge. In Christianity we have among others the Lake of Fire and titles such as King of Kings.

 

“Paul who is the writer of most of the New Testament, seems to be heavily influenced himself beyond mere Jewish influence. His treatment of Love in 1st Cor. includes the famous discourse on the Complete, which is the literal meaning of the Greek, which is mostly translated as the Perfect The Complete of course is the literal meaning of Haurvatat. His idea of the charismas looks suspiciously close to the Amesha Spentas. His discourse on the armor of a Christian, includes a description eerily similar to the tying of the Kushti. And many of his sayings betray Z influence,

 

“It is important to note that Cilicia, his birth province and Taurus his birth city, were both hot beds of Zoroastrian Non-orthodox, but definitely Zoroastrian activity, with a large population of believers and several Fire temples. In fact, 100+ years later, the Sassanians and the Eastern Roman Empire fought at least 1 war over the rights of these Zoroastrians.

 

“Yeshua himself betrays Z influence especially in his doctrine of the Kingdom, which is totally unheard of in Judaism, and, since he was a rabbi, he knew this so ...

“http://www.zoroastrianism.cc/similarities_and_influences.html

 

Also this by James Barr (Prof of Hebrew at Oxford Uni )

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1464919?uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103288371763

 

“Though today the Zoroastrian religion is on the fringe of the fringe of world religions, many religious scholars are convinced that the faith heavily influenced at least three of the world’s current major religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.”

 

http://hammeringshield.wordpress.com/2013/09/01/zoroastrianism-little-religion-big-influence/

 

(note the bolded sections)

 

Influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism : http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/influenceofzoroastrian.pdf

 

Iranian roots of Christianity; http://www.westminster.edu/staff/brennie/RennieCSSR36.1.pdf

 

 

An easy to read post on the influence on Islam http://www.liberezvous.org/viveDieu/index.php?/topic/82-the-topic-of-hicham-the-influence-of-zoroastrianism-in-islam/

 

The other view ; http://www.avesta.org/antia/Views_of_Scholars_Refuting_Zoroastrian_Influence.pdf

[h.uriahr]

BUT it is YOU that is implying that the Quran is actually mentioning Zoro himself without using his name. A few prophets may have acknowledged him as a cool dude but he didn't make it by name into their Holy Book so you are SPECULATING. Your proof isn't proof. You do see that right?

[Isimsiz Biri]

Zoroaster was considered a prophet by Islam itself ... read the post above.

 

Incorrect. Do not believe Nungali's posts, especially if they are about Islam.

[Isimsiz Biri]

.ABSOLUTLY WRONG AGAIN !

 

You are not reading the posts and again missing out on the points of what I AM saying in your rush to criticise what you think I am saying.

 

 

The thread title and OP said that . Not Nungali.

 

It is indeed incorrect to state that Zoroaster created Judaism and Christianity. I have never said that anywhere.

 

Show me where I said that !

 

[ See post 3, 5 , 8 , 9 (particularly the first paragraph ), 12, 15 for a start. ]

 

Nungali,

 

Answer me simply: Did you say Prophet Abraham is not a real person or not?

[Isimsiz Biri]

I am sorry Marblehead but you seem to have been led off to a side track here by IB posting false assumtions about this thread. see my posts above. Also these are valid theories often discussed by academnics. I have supplied links to these and anyone can follow them up.

 

Again, it is religious studies so ones insistence about their religious beliefs are immaterial.

 

I am presenting A theory. And even I am not insisting it is THE theory or truth of the matter.

 

As in the PIE peoples theories I posted a link to it and the other theories being looked at , at present (and their considered validity.

 

IB feels personally threatened because of his religious persuasions and belief systems

 

Time and time again I have demonstrated him as one who criticises without being familiar with what is actually written by me, and others and in the links and references provided.

 

Next posts will be on academic studies that show the transference of ideas and root concepts from the Zoroastrian teachings into Judaism , Christianity and Islam.

 

Again; I am NOT saying that Zoroaster created Judaism and Christianity , never have and never will. The thread title says that (and I didn't write it) ... Isimsiz Biri is the one saying Nungali says that ... Nungali does not say that. Isimsiz Biri feels threatened and so tries to disrupt and corrupt the information ... don't be tricked by him and remember our focus here.

 

The overall focus in religious studies (for me) is to enable some people to realise we ARE NOT that different after all and share root concepts that have differentiated over time and location ... but 'some' will just NOT have that will they? They support division and intolerance.

 

First of all, I never felt threatened by Nungali's fantasies. I just smile at them.

 

I am posting just to protect the innocent as usual. Especially Americans are very open to believe such fantasies as they are not good at Middle East history and geography.