Urgent serious complaint

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Enlightenment ends rebirth. Even the slightest actual knowledge about Buddhism would make that clear. All Buddhist practices are working towards Enlightenment. It's not a hidden secret that they keep from people. And again, Buddhism was the first source of the idea of ending rebirth in contrast to the Hindu culture of re-incarnation. Mo Pai is seeking an alternative means to the goal set out by The Buddha. The path in Buddhism is essentially to "extinguish the flame" of desires, knowing selflessness, and the meritorious actions which arise from these things. This is the path to Enlightenment and the end of rebirth. Through these things, phenomena such as siddhis may appear, but there has never been a "put the cart before the horse" idea that you need to cultivate the siddhis and they will take you there by their power.

 

Perhaps one will "extinguish the flame" and know selflessness, etc., by the very discipline and practice involved in developing these siddhis, but that would be a by-product of the discipline and practice, not of the siddhis themselves.

 

And if you want to hear about siddhis in Buddhism, they are there, often in healing powers, which John Chang also employs. Another example is Japanese planes crashing into each other over Empty Cloud's temple.

 

And if you're so bent on having measurable scientific proof - why do you believe in re-incarnation and rainbow bodies??? Where's your scientific verification of that?? Does that not seem the least bit absurd that you're demanding scientific proof of something because you want to make sure that it will give you a rainbow body?

Edited December 28, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Thunder_Gooch]

Enlightenment ends rebirth.

 

I know of not one individual who claims and has backed up such an attainment.

 

 

 

 

It's not a hidden secret that they keep from people.

 

If that's the case then it simply doesn't work for it's stated goal.

 

 

 

never been a "put the cart before the horse" idea that you need to cultivate the siddhis and they will take you there by their power.

 

Siddhis are not the end goal, but are not optional either. You can't not develop them and still progress in the system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

give you a rainbow body?

 

I've seen no documentation of anyone attaining rainbow body.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"How long has your guru been teaching?"

 

"Well, uh, over thirty years."

 

"And how many of his students have achieved enlightenment?"

 

"Well, uh..."

 

"That you know of personally?"

 

"Well, uh, I never..."

 

"That you've heard of?"

 

"It's not"

 

"That there were rumors of?"

 

"I don't think..."

 

"What is it they're doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment they're promoting - what is it?"

 

"Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically."

 

"And in thirty years they've never held someone up and said, 'Look at this guy! He's enlightened and we got him there!' In thirty years, they don't have one? Don't you think they should have, like, an entire army of enlightened guys to show off by now?"

 

"Well, it's not..."

 

"After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers, they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking, don't you think? I'm not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I'm just asking as a consumer, or a consumer's advocate. Don't you think it's reasonable to ask to know a teacher's success rate? The proof is in the pudding, right? Didn't you ask them about the fruit of their teachings when you started with them?"

 

"Well, that's not..."

 

"Don't you think it's reasonable to ask? They're in the enlightenment business, aren't they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have something else going?"

 

"Nooo, but they..."

 

"If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual organizations delivered as promised, don't you suppose that the first statistic listed under each organization would be success rating? Like, here are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization five years ago and here's where they are today. For instance, thirty-one have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent - that's a number you can compare. But this organization of yours would have big fat goose egg, wouldn't they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of thousands - millions, probably. Am I wrong?

 

- Jed McKenna - 'Spiritual Enlightenment:The Damnedest Thing'

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Wells]

I've seen no documentation of anyone attaining rainbow body.

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Yep. That do be rainbow body.

 

That orange hair had quite a body attached to it too.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

well the only scientific documentation that reincarnation exists is to say that its a rediculous notion. So why worry about it if science is how you determine the reality of any of this?

[Thunder_Gooch]

well the only scientific documentation that reincarnation exists is to say that its a rediculous notion. So why worry about it if science is how you determine the reality of any of this?

I see various cases for what happens after death.

 

1. Eternal afterlife.

 

2. Eternal nonexistence.

 

3. Reincarnation.

 

The only of these three I find totally unacceptable is reincarnation.

[Marblehead]

I would like to negate #1.

 

That leaves only #2.

[BaguaKicksAss]

What happened to don't end this regular existence we have here/now? OK so maybe we'd get a little bored after a time, but still...

[Wells]

I would like to negate #1.

 

That leaves only #2.

 

You are mad imo.

 

But if science is right, then...

 

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2013 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

What happened to don't end this regular existence we have here/now? OK so maybe we'd get a little bored after a time, but still...

 

You need to contact the Wu Liu Pai school in St. Petersburg.

Sadly, procurator is no more posting in this forum.

[BaguaKicksAss]

You need to contact the Wu Liu Pai school in St. Petersburg.

Sadly, procurator is no more posting in this forum.

 

I'm good, thanks . Though now I'm curious, what makes them in particular so special? What makes you think they are legit? (I'm extremely skeptical of people/schools posted online).

[liminal_luke]

There has to be the makings of a "How many MoPai masters does it take to change a lightbulb?" joke there.

 

One. But the lightbulb has to be sitting on the bare earth.

[Wells]

I'm good, thanks . Though now I'm curious, what makes them in particular so special? What makes you think they are legit? (I'm extremely skeptical of people/schools posted online).

 

I'm not 100% sure, but the member who posted here years ago made a good impression on me and seemed serious and honest.

If I understood his hints right, then physical immortality is a possibility in their school.

 

wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuliupai#The_Wu-Liu_Pai_school_in_Russia

 

their website in english:

http://www.all-dao.com/

[Marblehead]

What happened to don't end this regular existence we have here/now? OK so maybe we'd get a little bored after a time, but still...

nice thought but the natural aging process would put our body in such a condition that it would be difficult to move, our mind would deteriorate to where we couldn't remember anything. I doubt boredom would even be a problem though.

 

This regular existence will end. That's assured. A long life? Sure, that's possible. But currently the maximum documented is what? 123 years?

[Marblehead]

You are mad imo.

Well, don't feel special with that opinion. You are by far not the first to ever have that thought.

[Marblehead]

If I understood his hints right, then physical immortality is a possibility in their school.

But as soon as you get too old to attend school anymore you die. Sad.

[C T]

nice thought but the natural aging process would put our body in such a condition that it would be difficult to move, our mind would deteriorate to where we couldn't remember anything. I doubt boredom would even be a problem though.

 

This regular existence will end. That's assured. A long life? Sure, that's possible. But currently the maximum documented is what? 123 years?

You bet!

 

This is why in the Vajrayana sects, as well as in other schools, one primary contemplative exercise is to focus on the immediacy of this life, how precious it is, as a reminder not to squander energy on hankering after physical immortality, because that is merely a fantasy.

 

If a practitioner can generate wholeheartedly, this life, a genuine altruistic heart to gain freedom from craving and attachment, then, thru the spiritual evolutionary process, the fires of passion and aggression will eventually be put out. With this comes liberation from birth and death, which is the highest result.

 

After this, the practitioner, having become unbound, can then choose whether he or she wishes to gain rebirth in this world so as to 'save' other beings (actually no 'being' is being saved, sounds odd, i know - but this is the crucial difference between this path and others) or to remain unborn and unceasing, which is to say, to exist in prime potential, at nil point.

 

Those who yearn physical immortality does not have this understanding, so, according to the logic of the Buddhist path, is still bound by craving and attachment, the most basic cause of rebirth. Strange, ironical sometimes, but always true. Such subtle or gross craving and patterns of attachment leading to the same rebirth of the exact same result, each subsequent moment, over and over (on the wheel of samsara its said) can be clearly noted in our daily thoughts, words and deeds, if/when mindful attention is brought to the fore. It is only when this can be seen to happen can the chains be broken.

 

So, rebirth is actually bringing our habits of delusion from one moment to the next, without waking up to see it happening, and thus, remaining like in sleep, we continue to recycle in samsara. If we recognise the habitual reactive tendencies, we can choose the response. This seeing and choosing a different response is the transcendent leap. There are however some who can see their patterns clearly but will not choose to respond from a higher place. Karma is a strange and wonderful thing...

Edited December 29, 2013 by C T

[Marblehead]

Once again, C T, you have presented your understandings (beliefs) in a very efficient way. Although I don't hold to these understandings, they are presented in such a way that I have no reason to disagree with anything you have said.

 

Very nice post.

[BaguaKicksAss]

There's several old texts which would disagree with you guys .

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'm curious though, it makes it sound like rebirth is a really bad thing? How come? I guess getting to choose would be kinda neat though too . Though it looks like if we didn't get everything done we need to, we can still hanging out on immortal island .

[Marblehead]

There's several old texts which would disagree with you guys .

Hehehe. That's okay. I have had three wifes and they all disagreed with me nearly all the time. I am no cherry regarding being disagreed with.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hehehe. That's okay. I have had three wifes and they all disagreed with me nearly all the time. I am no cherry regarding being disagreed with.

 

The way you worded this makes it sound like you had all 3 at the same time . Not that I haven't met some folks who do have 3 wives...

[Marblehead]

I'm curious though, ...

I could speak to this but C T would do a much better job at it so I will leave it to him.

[Marblehead]

The way you worded this makes it sound like you had all 3 at the same time . Not that I haven't met some folks who do have 3 wives...

Hehehe. Doesn't matter, really. It's in the past - no crime, no punishment. (But yes, they were one at a time.)

[Apech]

Hehehe. Doesn't matter, really. It's in the past - no crime, no punishment. (But yes, they were one at a time.)

 

 

Having one wife sounds like youthful folly, having two maybe an understandable error but three sounds a bit like recklessness.