Sushumna channel

[awarenessrules]

Where is the sushumna channel? is it the Governing vessel in the spine or the zong mai(Taiji pole)? I am really confused because the yogis call the sushumna the central channel and say that it lies inside the spine while the taoists call the same channel inside the spine Governing vessel and they call the central channel the ZongMai which runs in the middle of the body and not the spine.And in which channel the kundalini travels when aroused, in the governing vessel or the zong mai?

 

Thanks

[SonOfTheGods]

 

sushumna channel

 

 

 

Governing vessel

 

 

Zhong Mai

[SonOfTheGods]

In Kundalini,there are three main channels of energy.

These are the Sushumna (White/Gold), the Ida (Blue) and the Pingala (Red).

In Chinese and Japanese medicine, these correspond to the Penetrating Vessel, Conception Vessel (Yin) and Governing Vessel (Yang).

[SonOfTheGods]

[SonOfTheGods]

The Penetrating Vessel (Sushumna) does NOT take a straight line up the centre of the spine, but DIRECTLY connects the Muladhara (Crutch Point) to the Ajna (Pineal Gland) and passes directly through the energetic and biological/neural centers (Vortex intersection points) simply mapped as the other Chakras.

The Sinoatrial node is the Heart Chakra where Masculine and Feminine, Ida and Pingala, Governor and Conception meet.

The Penetrating Vessel (Sushumna) is sometimes known as the 'chong' (or fertility) acupuncture channel is also called the 'sea of blood.'

It has links to the main acupuncture channels (Spleen, Kidney, Liver, Conception, and Governing) that correspond to digestive function, some endocrine functions, menstruation, some neurological functions, and heredity. In the female body, it provides a direct connection between the Head, Heart, Uterus and Crutch Point.

From this, it can be seen why so many people have all sorts of "symptoms" when Kundalini "blows" and the rest of the body is not in balance.

It is important to understand that the Sushumna (Penetrating Vessel) provides (as well as the main flow of "blood") the complete psycho-spiritual and neuro-biological balance (Tantra) ... firstly between the Conception Vessel - Yin (Ida) and the Governing Vessel - Yang (Pingala) ... and then between the other Vessels, Meridians or Nadi's which create harmony within the whole Hu-man being.

When seen by those who have the eyes to see, the radiance of this vessel can appear as a single column of Light joining Base to the Crown - often extending like a flower over the top of the head and extending down between the legs into the Earth.

However, what we see as Column of White Light and often interpret as the Sushumna is actually the result of the action of the energy of the Penetrating Vessel - a halo produced in much the same way as the glow that can be seen around high voltage electricity power lines on a misty night.

Edited December 28, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[SonOfTheGods]

 

The sinoatrial node (also commonly spelled sinuatrial node, abbreviated SA node or SAN, also called the sinus node) is the impulse-generating (pacemaker) tissue located in the right atrium of the heart, and thus the generator of normal sinus rhythm. It is a group of cells positioned on the wall of the right atrium, near the entrance of the superior vena cava. These cells are specialized cardiomyocytes. Though they possess some contractile filaments, they do not contract robustly.

[SonOfTheGods]

Taiji Pole

 

[ChiDragon]

Stay with one system. Please don't try to correlated two systems together. Each system is a different thought from each culture. The people do not think alike in different parts of the world. The systems are just simply a conceptual idea but not a real concept.

Edited December 28, 2013 by ChiDragon

[SonOfTheGods]

Stay with one system. Please don't try to correlated two systems together. Each system is a different thought from each culture. The people do not think alike in different parts of the world.

see what happens? lol

[Walker]

His post says:

 

Stay with one system. Please don't try to correlated two systems together. Each system is a different thought from each culture. The people do not think alike in different parts of the world. The systems are just simply a conceptual idea but not a real concept.

 

His avatar says:

 

Interested in finding and demystify ancient ambiguous ineffable concepts in correlation with modern scientific knowledge.

 

Sigh.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Walker

[idiot_stimpy]

The systems are just simply a conceptual idea but not a real concept.

 

Whats the difference between a conceptual idea and real concept?

[ChiDragon]

A conceptual idea is just a beginning to think about something to form a generalization which it may not be true until proving to become a real concept..

[idiot_stimpy]

Both are just ideas

[ChiDragon]

Both are just ideas

Yes, they are; but the former is uncertain and the latter is more finalized may be acceptable to some extent.

[idiot_stimpy]

What is acceptable is relative to your own perspective only.

[awarenessrules]

So that means the sushumna or penetrating channel lies outside the spinal column in the center,That confuses me because i have read in so many yoga books that the sushumna lies inside the spinal column,They say that there are 3 threads inside spinal column wrapped around one another and sushumna is the innermost thread.Also the ida pingala concept confuses me.Because conception channel runs on the front of body while the ida channel runs on the left side of body from left testicle to the 3rd eye while the governing channel runs on the back side of the body and the pingala runs on the right side of the body from the 2nd chakra to the 3rd eye.They are not the same thing.

[SonOfTheGods]

So that means the sushumna or penetrating channel lies outside the spinal column in the center,That confuses me because i have read in so many yoga books that the sushumna lies inside the spinal column,They say that there are 3 threads inside spinal column wrapped around one another and sushumna is the innermost thread.Also the ida pingala concept confuses me.Because conception channel runs on the front of body while the ida channel runs on the left side of body from left testicle to the 3rd eye while the governing channel runs on the back side of the body and the pingala runs on the right side of the body from the 2nd chakra to the 3rd eye.They are not the same thing.

you're welcome

[soaring crane]

 

Zhong Mai

 

Would you agree that ren mai is actually much deeper than shown here, and doesn't strictly follow the contour of the front of the body? I think the lines as shown here are meditation guides/aides.

[SonOfTheGods]

Would you agree that ren mai is actually much deeper than shown here, and doesn't strictly follow the contour of the front of the body? I think the lines as shown here are meditation guides/aides.

diagrams are never too accurate lol

[soaring crane]

diagrams are never too accurate lol

 

o, I know! haha, it's just that ren mai is almost always shown that way and people do tend to simply follow the contour of the front of their profile when meditating on it. With du mai it's different, the path in the diagrams is close to the real vessel, or close enough.

Edited December 29, 2013 by soaring crane

[ChiDragon]

.........With du mai it's different, the path in the diagrams is close to the real vessel, or close enough.

 

The du mai(督脈) lays along the spinal cord which is where all the central nerves run up the the brain.

[idiot_stimpy]

Jnana is a knowledge, a gnosis, or a cognition which is a direct and immediate intuition of reality. Its function is to know (shes-pa, jna), but this knowing is nondual in its nature. It is immediate and intuitive, transcending the dichotomy of subject and object. It is primal or primordial (ye, ye-nas) because it functions as a direct immediate intuitive knowing of the phenomena before the processes of the mind or the intellect which idnetify, label and judge an object to be this or that come into operation. In terms of Buddhist psychology it is a direct perception of raw sense data before that data has been structured by the mind (manas), by way of application of the categories of time and space, into recognisable object and the calling up of memories of similar objects with which to identify it.

 

In terms of Dzogchen, this Jnana exists outside of time. Thus it is ye-nas, since time or the temporal sequence comes into existence only through the operations of the mind (yid, manas). By the term mind is meant the process of mental consciousness (yid kyi rnam-shes, manovijnana): the raw sense data or appearances (snang-ba) in the external world become structured in time and space as discrete recognisable objects. In this sense the world is created by the mind, which is not the same as saying only mind exists. The categories of time and space are created by the mind, but Jnana is prior to the mind and in that sense is beyond the mind. (Golden Letters, 121-122)

[Trunk]

imho & ime...

 

I look for sushumna by feel.

Q. What does it feel like?

A. Nothing. It's the still place.

 

There's a series of still places - in the deep-center of each center.

Find each still place and line them up: that's sushumna.

 

(There's alchemy that occurs in the still deep-centers. You get them to ignite first individually, then the whole sushumna lights up like a light-bulb filament.)

[寒月 Hanyue]

Where is the sushumna channel? is it the Governing vessel in the spine or the zong mai(Taiji pole)? I am really confused because the yogis call the sushumna the central channel and say that it lies inside the spine while the taoists call the same channel inside the spine Governing vessel and they call the central channel the ZongMai which runs in the middle of the body and not the spine.

 

This question appears every few years, and I think it always will. Been there myself trying to figure this out.

 

If it is any solace to you, please know that there has been discussion and debate upon this very topic for hundreds of years, if not longer. Further to that, I do not believe there to be a definitive answer, there are several interpretations that make sense in slightly different ways. Even the late great Master, Nan Hua Jin, acknowledged for his cultivation accomplishments as well his his more academic awareness, does not have a definitive answer.

 

The book 'Body of Light' by Mann and Short attempts to explore the similarities and the differences between the energy body maps of Hindu yoga, Buddhist yoga and Chia's Daoist alchemy. They look at the spine-central body thing, as well as why some say ida and pingala intertwine and others say they are straight. It won't necessarily answer all your questions, however you may enjoy the read.

 

So please know that according to this book, the through the spinal cord or straight line through the body thing, is ALSO a difference that occurs in ideas of the 'central channel' between many Hindu and Buddhist maps. Let alone Chinese Daoist maps as well.

 

The best understanding comes from direct experience, derived from the practice of a method. When you practice a method, follow the teachings and explanations of the teacher. This will lessen confusion and or frustration from practicing one method and looking at maps from another.

 

That said, I will happily pass on what I have found to be the case. I'm afraid some of it is a little different to the information presented by Sonofthegods.

 

I go on three things.

• What I have felt and or experienced directly

• What I have been taught directly

• What is said in the classics

Thesedays I ignore 'pop-qigong' books.

 

The Chinese model:

 

[edit: I have intentionally not translated some pinyin terms. This is because it would be too involved to also provide a description of these things, which is again often different than what I have seen more commonly given in TCM texts. So I leave these things open and vague, you can look them up and begin to understand them for yourself, but caveat emptor and do not believe the first thing you find, the rabbit hole is always deeper than first appears.]

 

All diagrams are drawn for a reason and a purpose, they show what they show based upon this and they omit what they do based on this. Just because it doesn't appear on a given diagram, does not mean it isn't there.

 

First let me say that the diagrams most people throw around thesedays derive from TCM diagrams that are quite recent in the history of these traditions. They tend to be anatomically based, and drawn on a 'Western' looking body.

 

The old diagrams can be more confusing to peoples minds and eyes today, but actually make more sense in many many ways. These phenomena are not anatomical in the sense we are often led to think.

 

The qi mai, particularly those within the qijing bamai are not simply a 'line' that traverses the body as depicted in TCM diagrams! There is a reason routes for these qi mai did not appear in literature for a long time, and there is a reason the 'routes' are a little vague. There has also always been slight differences in the Daoist and medical understandings, because while they have a common ground, they are also pursuing different things.

 

Of course, thesedays TCM has standardised everything so now it is as clear as mud! Bear in mind that it is generally regarded that the classical jingluo (meridian/channel) model of Chinese medicine considered that there were 72 'channel's as an interwoven texture that comprises a person. As TCM was developed this was reduced to 14! The category of "the 14 channels" is a modern TCM one.

 

Remember the Dao de jing, As soon as we think we have something labelled and understand it, then we are actually missing the point. This applies more to the qijing bamai than the jingluo.

 

To begin, we need to explore and explode some common qigong myths that have arisen out of attempts to simplfy things for easy consumption. After, you'll see why such simplifications are usually used regardless of the misnomers they may cause!

 

Du mai: "sea of yang"

 

First of all, du mai does not simply go through the spinal cord. In fact according to some it doesn't go through the spinal cord at all! It goes along the back of the spine, the spinal processes that extend from the vertebrae.

 

But the single line channel of it along the line of the spine is NOT an accurate depiction of the du mai either!

 

In the Su Wen, the du mai actually has a route that travels through the front of the body, passing through the abdomen to the eyes. This part of the du mai is very similar in description to the ren mai. Further to this part of the du mai actually runs along the spine on either side, these are also described in the Su Wen. On top of that, there is a luomai part of the dumai that also runs along the back on either side of the spine. There is also a short route through the brain that connects baihui at the crown, through niwan in the center, to the yuzhen area in the occiput.

 

So please know the du mai is MORE than simply a line though the spine.

 

Ren mai: "sea of yin"

 

Stay with me here, but it is in fact the ren mai that travels through the spinal cord!

 

Yes, strange I know. But just as the 'route(s)' of the du mai are not as simple or straight forward as often depicted, neither is the ren mai.

 

The ren mai passes through the front of the torso, circles the mouth and connects to the du mai, however there is another aspect to its route, that passes through the spinal column with one end in the mouth, and the other passing through huiyin and up into the lower abdomen, its luo mai is seen as spreading out over the solar plexus area.

 

I know this is somewhat controversial, and in part that is why I am posting this information, to show that these things are not as simple or straightforward as they may appear. See the attached jpg's below, from two different sources regarding the ren mai.

 

However, if we accept the above, then the often discussed various 'routes' of the xiao zhou tian are always variations of qi moving through the ren and du mai. No other qi mai need apply! Until of course the zhong mai is awoken and that can come into play.

 

Xiao zhou tian: "small heavenly cycle"

 

Due to the relationship of the above two routes, the du mai and ren mai are usually simplified into a basic circuit that goes along the central line of the torso front and back.

 

This is where an appreciation of acupuncture comes in. Acupuncturists are primarily interested in and concerned with where they can put a needle! Makes sense right? As such, regardless of the whole of a qi mai, what is of primary importance to an acupuncturist is the parts of the qimai that are superficial enough to be needled. This means most discussions, and diagrams of these qi mai that have arisen from Chinese medicine, particularly the standardised TCM ones, limit themselves to what is viewed as most applicable.

 

This is of course, the front of the torso and the tissue along the spinal processes. And this 'circuit' is most easily described as du mai on the back (yang) and ren mai on the front (yin). Further to this, and something I have attempted to avoid in my choice of language above, is the idea that these more superficial parts of the qi mai are the "primary" routes, and the rest are "secondary" routes or branches. Ridiculous! They are a whole, a thing, is the origin of a muscle the primary part of it, with the belly secondary, and the insertion tertiary!? No, of course not, it is a functional unit.

 

The language of "primary" route in TCM is again referring to the part accessible with a needle, that is why it is "primary", primary in TCM for acupuncture. Not as an energetic anatomical structure!

 

The important thing is always, the movements of qi, and NOT how we divide these movements and label them. It really makes no difference about whether the qi mai through the spinal cord is labelled 'ren' or 'chong' or 'du' for that matter, it is what it is regardless of the name. Instead, consider the names, what do they actually mean, and why might one system/person refer to that movements of qi as any of them?

 

Chong mai:

 

There are several depictions of chong mai. I have seen some qigong authors who consider it is the chong mai that travels through the spinal cord not the ren mai. However, even though some qigong authors go there, I have found no Chinese medical text that describes chong mai as running through the entire length of the spinal cord.

 

The route of the chong mai is a little ambiguous in the classics. But it's route is usually considered in several parts, of interest here I will simply mention that there are upper and lower parts. It is the upper parts in the torso that most go on about. However it also travels down the inside of the legs.

 

Part of the torso route moves through the front of the torso on either side of the ren mai, similarly to the way part of the du mai parralels its own central route. Quite different, to the idea of it running in the spinal cord.

 

Zhong mai:

 

This is the channel that goes through the center of the body between baihui and huiyin. It is what Johnson calls the 'taiji pole' though I personally do not like that name or term. In fact, due to Johnson's form of copy and paste editing, depending on which sections of his textbooks you are reading he confuses and conflates terms and routes, as differing explanations and descriptions appear, so caveat emptor.

 

I have been taught about zhong mai even within classical Chinese medicine, when this confused many of the TCM people present, my teacher remarked that is is rarely mentioned but does appear in old texts. It is however more often mentioned within cultivation.

 

Chong mai and Zhong mai:

 

I have heard various descriptions of the relationship between these two. Some say that it is one channel, and that as you cultivate qi, it straightens out from the curved route of the chong mai to the straight route of the zhong mai. Others have explained that the zhong mai route is the older understanding and over time in medicinal circles, it evolved into a curved more detailed route.

 

I don't think it matters, treat them as separate, they only pointing at something anyway.

 

Directionality:

 

TCM charts and the Western numbering system provides the impression that the qimai have "directionality", further to this many qigong methods that utilise yunqi (moving qi intentionally) work with various qi mai with directionality too. This has created the erroneous impression that the qi flows in a particular direction only. As such, when people first start feeling their qi moving, it will either fall into this notion, or it will be moving counter to it and people freak out! I have seen this numerous times.

 

This is why many old school teacher advise you not to read books, because if your emerging experience does not fit your idea of what you think should and can happen, it can cause problems as your head gets in your own way.

 

This erroneous idea of directionality shows an adherence to an understanding of the qi mai coming I believe from TCM and is quite recent. It shows a lack of understanding of the nature of qi, and of the qi mai as they are taught within older traditions, this has at least been my experience.

 

Qi moves, cycles, waves and rhythms, but the much vaunted TCM circadian circulation is only one map used to understand the movement of qi in the energy-body. Qi actually moves in qi mai in both directions, and it doesn't automatically or simply mean that you have niqi (rebellious qi) if it is moving counter to this map.

 

Similarly with the movement of qi through the xiao zhou tian. I have seen people get confused because the Western TCM numbering of ren mai goes up the body, but they've read in qigong that qi should go down it?!

 

In classical texts there are several maps of how qi moves and cycles in the body. However, due to modern emphasis many feel that the maps conflict with each other as they attempt to reduce everything to a definitional model. But these maps are not intended that way, and neither is my explanation in this post! And in fact these each represent an aspect of the whole, by depicting the various relationships that are inherently a part of the Chinese model, like looking through through different filters at something that otherwise is too confusing to comprehend.

 

And in which channel the kundalini travels when aroused, in the governing vessel or the zong mai? Thanks

 

What many are referring to as 'kundalini' thesedays, can be experienced through the spine, or through the centre of the body, or both. It is not an either or thing.

 

The primary difference between the Daoist and Yogic experience comes not from the energy phenomena itself, but the dao yin (guiding and leading) that is inherent within the practice methods. Whether that dao yin is implicit or explicit. This is why classical 'kundalini' descriptions are of the spine and rising, and Daoist descriptions are of circulating and 'filling' (see thread on filling dantian).

 

A power lifter and a sprinter do not train or develop their bodies in the same way, yet they have the same muscles and bones and both train and develop their bodies.

 

Summary:

 

At the end of the day, names, terms, and boxes are not important (Lao Zi chapter 1). You can change the names of the qi mai around it doesn't matter. What they point to is more important. And this is the various 'routes' that you can potentially feel and experience qi moving within, or along. And, if your methodology goes there, the 'routes' that can be seen as beneficial to stimulate qi by stirring it with your intent.

 

It doesn't matter what you call these things, or whether the Hindu's preferred to 'stir' their qi one way, the Buddhist, and Daoist another.

 

Best,

 

[edited for spelling and grammer]

Edited December 30, 2013 by snowmonki

[SonOfTheGods]

 

 

 

That said, I will happily pass on what I have found to be the case. I'm afraid some of it is a little different to the information presented by Sonofthegods.

 

Yours is much better in detail.

 

I wanted to show the OP sometimes the contradiction via visuals is not always the best route to go

 

i.e., here is the ida, and here is the pingala

 

doesn't always work that way, in each system

 

Best to experience it yourself, IMO