Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[Ya Mu]

"working with" can absolutely be done while not in that deep state. "making that which you've cultivated part of what you're harvesting" is where the deep state is required. are you telling us with all the time you've put in to this you cant change the potential a bit there and do something with it? just curious, because your verbiage is always absolute and certain, and whereas the nature of words is abstraction, there's always a ton of different ways to say the same thing yet have some slightly different connotation.

A person does actually have to practice daily before any real conclusions can be made.

As you say, Qi can be worked with while in normal states. I think anyone who actually practices internal cultivation can easily know this on their own.

 

However, if a person can train to be able to instantly "shift" to the state of "halfway between sleep and awake", which with the right practice can absolutely be accomplished, then the "harvesting" "cultivation" harmonizes. This state can easily be seen while hooked up to sleep monitors in a lab. While doing standing Stillness-Movement, inside 3 minutes brain activity went from normal awake through the first 3 stages of sleep. My eyes were open and actual awareness increased while in this state. This is not a "great feat" as it can be done by anyone who actually trains every day.

But, an open mind goes a long way in assisting a person in this training as it becomes difficult to burn through illusions that we stubbornly cling to. One problem I have seen in practitioners is they will practice a while then quit. And then think they have maintained, while they have not. My point is that dan tian cultivation is a continuous thing, and IMO someone who wants to just "play around" with it shouldn't even be involved.

 

One thing I have constantly said is that "When we practice we know. But when we stop practicing not only do we forget what we know but we forget that we knew." In other words, the illusions that we burned through with our initial practice were only partway burned through and come back as we walk through the sea of humanity which in general operates at a different vibrational frequency than true internal practitioners. Cultivation of dan tian, place where energy transmutation occurs, can and will eventually burn through all those filters. On average, I would say it could take 10-15 years for this to happen. This time can be shortened drastically by studying a system where the teacher creates a field and lights the fire inside dan tian, and fine-tunes one's energetics. Then this can happen, provided the student practices DAILY, inside a much shorter period of time, although it is certainly dependent on many factors, probably the most important factor being "who you are", with a part of the term "who you are" meaning one's totality of experience throughout many lifetimes and the amount of energy one chooses to bring to this world.

 

------------

As to the "why" of "filling" dan tian, this is the place where transmutation occurs. And when a certain point is reached, this center gets very big, very dense, vibrating at a higher frequency and expands, opening each and every energy center in turn, in a natural progressive manner and extends throughout the entire energy body, raising the entire energy body vibrational frequency.

[Thunder_Gooch]

"working with" can absolutely be done while not in that deep state.

 

Perhaps once you are very advanced, but in my experience it isn't anywhere near the same level of deep trance.

 

 

_________________________

 

 

 

A person does actually have to practice daily before any real conclusions can be made.

 

Many people I meet would rather practice 15 minutes a day than for a solid few hours once a week.

 

Quality and not quantity is important.

 

It takes me many hours just to even hit a deep state of trance for training, so there is no point even attempting meditation if I can't dedicate the whole day to it.

 

 

 

Now, a beginning student cannot hold his concentration for long. Perhaps in one hour of sitting, he is actually in meditation for 1.3 minutes. That means he is meditating only 2.2 percent of the time, which means that if he sits for one hour a day, he needs ten years of training to get his eighty-one hours of meditation.”

 

-The Magus of Java p82

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you say, Qi can be worked with while in normal states. I think anyone who actually practices internal cultivation can easily know this on their own.

 

Anyone who has ever achieved a deep state of trance, will understand the gulf between working with energy in that state vs normal waking consciousness.

 

Sensations you can convince yourself you are feeling while in normal waking consciousness, in my experience are not on the same level as being in deep trance. (not even in the same ballpark)

 

It also in my experience is not possible to be up and around and moving and maintain deep trance.

Edited December 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Ya Mu]

Yes, people have to actually practice in order to get to to where they can shift that awareness - evidenced by actual scientific measurements in a sleep lab. Without practice, nothing happens and one can convince themselves of most anything due to extreme power of brain activity. Which of course is the very thing that needs to be dampened out in order to reach "that state halfway between awake and sleep". So just because a person who does not practice has never experienced it doesn't mean it is not there.

Quality IS extremely important as there is certainly a difference in vibration, however, in any system, anyone's accomplishments are directly proportional to the practice they put in. So if someone does not practice they have no idea that these things can happen. If a person has never been exposed to real practices via studying with a real accomplished authorized teacher of a system, and puts those practices into a daily practice, it is quite likely they never will experience these things, although again, so much depends on the "who you are" equation and there are a few who have accomplished much with self-study and an even fewer who simply were born with it as they carried this knowledge over from previous lifetimes.

In general, a person who does not practice, at all, simply doesn't know, and never will, until they practice daily for an extended period of time.

[Thunder_Gooch]

accomplishments are directly proportional to the practice they put in.

I have to disagree here. You can put in all the practice you like, but if you aren't in the right state of consciousness and can't maintain mental focus maybe 2% of the effort you are putting in is being utilized.

 

Something which should take a few months at most can take 10 or more years as a result.

 

 

Now, a beginning student cannot hold his concentration for long. Perhaps in one hour of sitting, he is actually in meditation for 1.3 minutes. That means he is meditating only 2.2 percent of the time, which means that if he sits for one hour a day, he needs ten years of training to get his eighty-one hours of meditation.”

 

-The Magus of Java p82

If a person has never been exposed to real practices via studying with a real accomplished authorized teacher of a system, and puts those practices into a daily practice

 

Again I will have to disagree. Quality and not quantity. 15 minutes here and there isn't the same, if you are not in the correct state of consciousness and can't maintain mental focus.

 

Accurate teachings matter most, it doesn't matter if you have a real and authorized teacher of some system if no one in the history of said system has ever accomplished anything.

 

While some may believe in the requirement of transmission, I do not.

 

You can indeed learn this knowledge on your own as an autodidact, most just lack the will power and determination to do so.

Edited December 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Friend]

Both are correct.

 

Effiency grade is something.

When the teaching is saying 100% effieny grade

then it is proportianl to the practise.

When it is said that the practise needs awareness and not concentration

then it deals with other mechanics.

The Stillnessmovement Qigong doesnt care about full lotus.

 

But if the effiency grade is 2% then it is best to exercise only those 2%

and then do other things. Exercising hours to gain 2% I would either

go to exercise mental focus first.

 

Without transmission it just slower, indeed you can do this autodidact.

For example Zifa Gong exist very long before Qigong but the pioneers

had to fight with timewasting research in their autodidact also

had to fight with mistakes which take the one other the other life.

The transmission serves as autocallibration system so that one

avoid the mistakes the ancient made.

 

I myself know from mediation of no method that the crystallisation

of practise of the next step is natural and without teaching

takes years to understand the next step.

 

The technique a person get and refine is work of a lifetime

and the next step is not given if the part one work with

has not be understood fully.

This is my expirience.

 

The ancestor have the mercy and the power to give

this refinement as an information update so that the inheriting person

may not have to fight through all their hardships as they found

reading and understanding and putting it to work and refine it to

the degree they had is time consuming.

 

To believe or not of transmission.

A chance that it is possible to reduce the amount

of work and have practise safer is worth to consider.

 

Raising the chance to succeed is vital.

One can join a school with all real teaching and for free

but if one not succeed then one can be all talent and prodigy

: It was a failure.

 

 

Instead of things one can be done in month's one need only weeks,

that it is what transmission is.

 

MPG consider it as something that can give advantage.

And even when John Chang comes and fill your Dantien up

then it is also a transmission. It is his cultivated Qi that he shares,

this is also a transmission.

[NotVoid]

Hello mr. More_Pie_Guy. IMO, there is a very good reason that often people of some real experience in internal cultivation practices point out that you need a qualified teacher to learn this stuff. It is not because people can't make progress on their own in this sort of thing, but it is because it is so easy to get off track without ever realizing it without the guidance of a qualified teacher. For example, when you insist that you feel you need to get into a deep altered state of some sort to have any much chance of making real progress, and that people who don't worry about such things and practice regularly even though they may not experience a deeply relaxed or altered state, are pretty much wasting their time, I am pretty certain that any experienced teacher in internal practices would likely tell you immediately to get such foolish notions out of your head and just start regularly practicing. The most important keys are a good sound method, guidance from an experienced and qualified teacher, and regular practice.

 

Through regular and correct practice the student will naturally over time be able to get into 'deeper' states of relaxation. Everyone will progress at their own natural pace, and some people may excel at certain things while other people may excel at different things. On the other hand, if a student takes an attitude that they really 'just know how it all should be done' instead of following the teacher's advice, the chances of causing issues for them self such as causing imbalances and blockages and that sort of thing are much more likely. By taking an attitude that you must experience some expected thing before you can even start making progress sounds like a sure way to take what should be a natural process and impose all sorts of unecessary restrictions, and pressures and stresses (whether realized or not) which will more than likely just lead to imbalances and other issues than anything else.

 

I am not a master by any means, but I will tell you a couple things that anyone who has practiced internal cultivation practices for any length of time should likely be aware of:

 

1) While it may be generally true that the deeper the state of relaxation and letting go you can achieve, the better, it is in no way required that you have to be deeply relaxed or have to be feeling lots of sensations to be making progress. Correct and regular practice is much more important, as I think any authentic teacher would likely point out. Also as I mentioned previously, a person will naturally be able to get into 'deeper' and more relaxed states over time through regular practice.

 

2) Any student who has practiced internal practices of one sort or another for any period of time would also likely be aware that they may actually be going into fairly deep altered states of consciousness fairly quickly in their practice without really being consciously aware of it at all (you may not notice a shift in consciousness at all) until some sudden sound or event suddenly snaps you out of it and gives a shock to your system which may make you jump half out of your skin, and then you realize that you really were in a quite deep altered state without having any conscious awareness of it. This is why people are typically advised to come out of stillness practice slowly to give them self time to gradually return to a normal state of waking state functioning.

 

Natural, regular practice, preferably with at least occasional guidance from a good teacher, is the way to go, Taking an attitude that you pretty much know it all and that everyone else must be wrong is probably not a good idea IMO. Good luck in your practice.

Edited December 29, 2013 by NotVoid

[silent thunder]

I am wary of 'transmissions'.

They amount in my mind to 'shortcuts' which I feel are in the long scope, counter-productive.

Like a child who skips crawling and goes straight to walking, will at some point revert at a later point to that lesson.

Some things can't be skipped.

 

I also feel pretty strongly that there are no accidents and that 'patterns of avoidance' of certain lessons, actually prolong the experience of that lesson, than just allowing it to flow naturally.

 

When realization occurs, transformation of prior energy systems is instantaneous in my experience.

Like a candle banishing the darkness of a thousand years.

 

I seek out teachings.

Those that resonate, remain.

I welcome conversations, or lessons, but transmission makes me uncomfortable.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I am wary of 'transmissions'.

They amount in my mind to 'shortcuts' which I feel are in the long scope, counter-productive.

Like a child who skips crawling and goes straight to walking, will at some point revert at a later point to that lesson.

Some things can't be skipped.

 

I also feel pretty strongly that there are no accidents and that 'patterns of avoidance' of certain lessons, actually prolong the experience of that lesson, than just allowing it to flow naturally.

 

When realization occurs, transformation of prior energy systems is instantaneous in my experience.

Like a candle banishing the darkness of a thousand years.

 

I seek out teachings.

Those that resonate, remain.

I welcome conversations, or lessons, but transmission makes me uncomfortable.

 

The student still has to do the work to catch up with the transmission though (I hope that wording makes sense). I personally see them more like being let into the path and getting the bit that's been handed down for a heapload of generations.

 

I see it as more access as opposed to skipping stuff, and actually have to work harder I think.

 

This is my understanding of such things at this point in time though, and I could be way off, I could also be speaking of things which are different in the systems being discussed in this thread .

 

Edit, though I am also very wary of them depending on who/what is doing them!!

Edited December 29, 2013 by BaguaKicksAss

[Thunder_Gooch]

when you insist that you feel you need to get into a deep altered state of some sort to have any much chance of making real progress, and that people who don't worry about such things and practice regularly even though they may not experience a deeply relaxed or altered state, are pretty much wasting their time, I am pretty certain that any experienced teacher in internal practices would likely tell you immediately to get such foolish notions out of your head and just start regularly practicing.

Whereas you believe the earth is littered with thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of "experienced teachers" I do not.

 

Out of the billions alive on earth, only a small handful have accomplished something more.

 

The teachings of those people who actually have accomplished something of meaning, are infinitely more valuable than any number of teachings from those who have accomplished nothing.

 

In my opinion most people just fill their head with nonsense chasing after the new teacher of the week, who isn't qualified to be teaching in the first place.

Edited December 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[joeblast]

The student still has to do the work to catch up with the transmission though (I hope that wording makes sense). I personally see them more like being let into the path and getting the bit that's been handed down for a heapload of generations.

in my experience, not quite so much "catch up with" so much as "keep it going"

 

the deep stillness requirement is why I advocate getting there via establishing superlative habit-energy, muscle memory, via rote repetition of anapanasati. do the method sincerely and diligently and you cant fail. once I had a good grasp of the ingredients for it, it took me 2-3 months 1-3 hours every night. the first time I got there. subsequent times getting there were quicker because there are other techniques that accelerate the happenings (like being able to focus the awareness at the niwan.)

 

as far as "working with"...that is broad verbiage. compressing the dantien and directing a wave-potential at the laogung is "working with it" and while it is more efficient and cultivated to its significant depth in "deep trance," it is not a absolute requirement for usage or manifestation once the technique has been established and the energetics harmonious enough to fuel it. its a simple manifestation of ohm's law. resistance is least when in the deep trance state, but when you've established other energetics that contribute towards the amplitude of the manifestation in question, the manifestation still happens. it'd be nice to hear of your experience instead of quotes from JC being about the extent of what you can add here, mpg.

[Thunder_Gooch]

it'd be nice to hear of your experience instead of quotes from JC being about the extent of what you can add here, mpg.

I try not to discuss my own experiences as much as possible at least in public.

 

The less ammo I give my critics the better

[NotVoid]

Hello mr. More_Pie_Guy. Interesting reply. I did not say anywhere that I think it is easy to find a qualified teacher. You seem to have just assumed that. I actually think such a thing is not so easy at all. However, in my experience there are not any perfect teachers out there as well, so I think a person has to find a teacher that they at least feel with some careful examination can give them proper guidance to move forward positively in their practice. I was referring specifically to authentic internal cutivation practices and not just health qigong and that sort of thing in my comments. There are all kinds of people these days who mix and match all sorts of practices that they get from books and DVDs and discussion forums, or who read a book or two by or about a particular teacher, and who post on various internet forums and that sort of thing, and who often seem to have an attitude that they have it all pretty much figured out, but I have to say that in my own opinion and experience I often actually see indications which these sorts of people display through their comments and behaviour that they likely have little or no real accomplishment and understanding at all, or they show signs of real imbalances of one sort of another, and more often than not they seem quite unaware of it unless something starts to impact them in a very obvious negative way. This is something that a good teacher would either nip in the bud fairly quickly or at least try to clearly warn the student about in one way or another. IMO, real Internal cultivation is not something that a person can likely at all just wing without getting off track. It can potentially bring about profound changes and interactions in a person's system, even without the person really being much aware of it. This is just based on my own personal views and experience of course. Everyone has to make their own decisions and face the consequences of their own actions. That is life.

 

Maybe consider that those who express a different point of view than you are not necessarily 'critics', but just offering their own point of view and personal experience up in a friendly manner. That is where my comments are coming from anyway. Whether you find anything useful or not is totally your call.

Edited December 29, 2013 by NotVoid

[joeblast]

I try not to discuss my own experiences as much as possible at least in public.

 

The less ammo I give my critics the better

*shrugs* cop-out

[Thunder_Gooch]

I was referring specifically to authentic internal cutivation practices

I know what you were referring to, I just disagree that there are as many of these available to us as you believe there are.

Whether you find anything useful or not is totally your call.

I don't.

 

_________________________

 

*shrugs* cop-out

 

I like to think of it as learning from experience.

 

I've tried numerous times to talk about my own experiences and every time it's ended in massive debate and argument.

 

I'll save my personal experiences and such for private discussion.

Edited December 29, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[ChiDragon]

Should filling the Dan Tien be considered an important mile stone before an esoteric practitioner can move on to other practices.

 

Do we 'fill up' the Dan Tien just by deep full breathing and putting attention there? Does reverse breathing help the process? Is it necessary?

 

What are the markers of progress and are visualizations a help or hindrance?

 

 

 

I think it is vital and too often forgotten in the rush to learn more complicated practices. I think reverse breathing can help the process, and there are 'light' versions of it; a mental feeling of contraction of chi w/ a slight tightening of the butt, instead of the usual reversal of stomach movement during breath.

 

I like visualizations, but I'm trying not to use them much these days.

 

Your line of questioning indicates that you don't have a clear understanding about 'filling up' the Dan Tien.

 

Yes, it is a mile stone but in different a term, 氣沈丹田, sink chi to the Dan Tien. What that means is when you take a normal deep full breathing, your abdomen is fully expanded. It was said to be that you are under the condition of 氣沈丹田 (sink chi to the Dan Tien). In your terms, it means full. However, it is not.

 

Here is why your Dan Tien is not full nor your abdomen. When you take a deep breath, actually your lungs are full causing your abdomen to be fully expanded. The abdomen is located at the lower Dan Tien(LTD) position. The idea is that the deep breath has sunk to the LDT. That is how the term 氣沈丹田 (sink chi to the Dan Tien) was derived which is also known as "abdominal breathing"..

 

Abdominal breathing is the goal to be considered as an important mile stone before an esoteric practitioner can move on to other practices. Without breathing properly, noting can be accomplished. It was known as Chi Kung. Of course, it means nothing like that in the west.

 

 

 

[soaring crane]

Here is why your Dan Tien is not full nor your abdomen. When you take a deep breath, actually your lungs are full causing your abdomen to be fully expanded.

 

huh. With me, it's just the opposite, usually.

[SonOfTheGods]

huh. With me, it's just the opposite, usually.

you doing reverse breathing?

[NotVoid]

I know what you were referring to, I just disagree that there are as many of these available to us as you believe there are.

 

I don't.

 

Considering I have made it clear that I don't think real accomplished and qualified teachers of internal cultivation are so easy to find, your statement makes no sense. I knew you might respond this way to a differing point of view mr. More_Pie_Guy, as I have seen many of your comments here already, but I just wanted to add my thoughts to the overall discussion anyway. Others here may be a little more open to considering different points of view and other people's experience.

[SonOfTheGods]

Considering I have made it clear that I don't think real accomplished and qualified teachers of internal cultivation are so easy to find, your statement makes no sense. I knew you might respond this way to a differing point of view mr. More_Pie_Guy, as I have seen many of your comments here already, but I just wanted to add my thoughts to the overall discussion anyway. Others here may be a little more open to considering different points of view and other people's experience.

[ChiDragon]

huh. With me, it's just the opposite, usually.

Yes!

When you are doing the reverse breathing, then it is the opposite. Thus 氣沈丹田 (sink chi to the Dan Tien) is still applies.

[soaring crane]

you doing reverse breathing?

 

haha, no, it does me!

 

no, it's just a natural result of standing qigong forms. If I don't force it, and am rising/sinking with I breathe, my belly expands all on its own when I exhale/sink, albeit only slightly, there's very little movement in either direction.

 

When sitting/standing still meditating, then it's more of a rotation/circling that does push the abdomen outward on exhale. Outward and upward, internally, but somewhat visible from outside.

 

is this a good thread to go into Dantian rotation?

[NotVoid]

Should filling the Dan Tien be considered an important mile stone before an esoteric practitioner can move on to other practices.

 

I think it really depends on what you are trying to achieve or what specific system you are referring to. Traditional internal cultivation systems often involve a fairly definite course of progression, unless you want to include systems like Chan buddhism and that sort of thing. Some internal cultivation systems may refer to 'filling' the lower dantian, while other systems may refer to 'developing' the lower dantian, and other systems may look at it in some other way altogether. All of this stuff seems to be very context based from what I have encountered, and I think that is something that may often be overlooked. The question might better be worded, how does some specific system taught by some specific teacher view such things?

 

Very generally I think that it is not uncommon in various taoist internal cultivation or similar practices to work with the lower dantian in some way in beginning or earlier stages, and it may even be done rather indirectly in some cases, and there really seems to be various approaches in different systems and lineages and teachers from what I have been able to gather. In some systems the lower dantian is treated something like an energetic center or area, and in other systems I have run across they seem to be talking about compacting qi into an actual ball in the lower dantian and circulating that little ball of compacted qi or elixir, or whatever they might refer to it as, around their system in various ways, and who knows what else is out there.

Edited December 29, 2013 by NotVoid

[soaring crane]

Nice reply, I really appreciate your contributions

 

Some internal cultivation systems may refer to 'filling' the lower dantian

 

I only wanted to clarify that the reason I don't feel right with the term 'fill' regarding Dantians is that to fill something, you need a defined container, a limited space with a border. The border may be flexible, but it's still there. Dantians don't work like that. 'Expand' is a word a like, it feels good.

Edited December 29, 2013 by soaring crane

[SonOfTheGods]

 

 

is this a good thread to go into Dantian rotation?

the OP of this thread already made one about tan tien rotation

[soaring crane]

the OP of this thread already made one about tan tien rotation

 

oh

 

I'll have to put my novel down and read the online stuff more carefully ...