Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[SonOfTheGods]

oh

 

I'll have to put my novel down and read the online stuff more carefully ...

here ya go

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31898-rotating-the-lower-dan-tien/

[SonOfTheGods]

here ya go

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31898-rotating-the-lower-dan-tien/

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31292-where-is-the-tan-tien-is-it-a-physical-thing-with-exact-physical-location/

 

theres a few lol

Edited December 29, 2013 by SonOfTheGods

[soaring crane]

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31292-where-is-the-tan-tien-is-it-a-physical-thing-with-exact-physical-location/

 

theres a few lol

 

yeah, ok, I'll leave it at that then

 

although, I'll add one thing here, very truncated - try rotating the LDT intentionally, internally, with the muscles, up the front/abdomen and down the back/sacrum (inhale up, exhale down, close huyin when exhaling, relax it when inhaling). Do it a while (9 reps or longer) and then shift on an exhale, relax, let the chi then rise up the back, start mco ... Like winiding a watch spring and letting it loose...

Edited December 29, 2013 by soaring crane

[Ya Mu]

Nice reply, I really appreciate your contributions

 

 

I only wanted to clarify that the reason I don't feel right with the term 'fill' regarding Dantians is that to fill something, you need a defined container, a limited space with a border. The border may be flexible, but it's still there. Dantians don't work like that. 'Expand' is a word a like, it feels good.

Yea - I like your reasoning as I too don't like the word "fill" in this case.

"OK, I am going to put exactly 6.7 lbs of qi in here then compress that to exactly 7.28 lbs full." Dang, I hope it doesn't bust when I hit a bump.

[Friend]

Yea - I like your reasoning as I too don't like the word "fill" in this case.

"OK, I am going to put exactly 6.7 lbs of qi in here then compress that to exactly 7.28 lbs full." Dang, I hope it doesn't bust when I hit a bump.

Dantien as a Tire.

The world is crazy

[soaring crane]

Yea - I like your reasoning as I too don't like the word "fill" in this case.

"OK, I am going to put exactly 6.7 lbs of qi in here then compress that to exactly 7.28 lbs full." Dang, I hope it doesn't bust when I hit a bump.

 

haha, don't hit a bump, you might spill your Jing

 

Also, feels good getting an agree from you

[silent thunder]

Relaxation allows for valves to open wider and channels to expand further.

I can see feeling this and defining it as 'filling up' as the reservoirs and channels expand and flow through them increases.

For me, it's not being full, so much as it's releasing constricting tension and opening up.

[silent thunder]

Dantien as a Tire.

The world is crazy

or as a full gyroscope

[NotVoid]

I only wanted to clarify that the reason I don't feel right with the term 'fill' regarding Dantians is that to fill something, you need a defined container, a limited space with a border. The border may be flexible, but it's still there. Dantians don't work like that. 'Expand' is a word a like, it feels good.

 

Sure, I personally actually haven't encountered a teacher who actually spoke of 'filling the dantian'. That term seems to have come from the books about John Chang and Mopai, although maybe some other teachers use that terminology. In the internal martial arts they often talk about sinking the qi and I have run across teachers who refer to the lower dantain as a 'storage area' for qi as well, but really nothing about filling the dantian. Some talk of 'restoring the qi to fullness', which I guess is sort of similar. I have found that a lot of the terminology is very context based, and different teachers will use terms in their own way, so I personally try not to get too hung up on terms and expressions. Also I have found some terms may be used by the same teacher differently in different contexts, but that just seems to be a characteristic of the Chinese language/culture. The Chinese seem to speak a lot more symbolically or associatively, without everything having to be so clearly or rigidly defined or stated right out specifically. Definintely a different way of looking at things that no doubt trips up lots of Westerners until they get more used to it. The general idea seems to be, don't get hung up on the terms but just try to get the general idea conveyed by the terms and you will understand it better once you experience it. The experience can actually be quite a bit different than any terminology and concepts might ever convey anyway, so no point getting hung up on such stuff.

Edited December 29, 2013 by NotVoid

[SonOfTheGods]

yeah, ok, I'll leave it at that then

 

although, I'll add one thing here, very truncated - try rotating the LDT intentionally, internally, with the muscles, up the front/abdomen and down the back/sacrum (inhale up, exhale down, close huyin when exhaling, relax it when inhaling). Do it a while (9 reps or longer) and then shift on an exhale, relax, let the chi then rise up the back, start mco ... Like winiding a watch spring and letting it loose...

"with the muscles".................. not visualizing it? just purely abdominal?

[soaring crane]

Yes, to train, yes with muscle movement, don't need visualisation. Those muscles start working independently (after a while) and then you just 'think' the motion and it starts automatically

[SonOfTheGods]

Yes, to train, yes with muscle movement, don't need visualisation. Those muscles start working independently (after a while) and then you just 'think' the motion and it starts automatically

Awesomely interesting - thanks for that!

 

Back in the day- prior to my kundalini awakening- my stomach would spasm, and push all the way in towards my spine. I couldn't stop it- next day felt like a super ab workout.

 

I think it was retrieving all the juice from my organs for it's own purpose. Kept continuing for about 20 minutes. Didn't think the abdominal wall could be compromised and exploited like that.

[Aeran]

Wouldn't it depend on what you're trying to achieve? ie: filling and compressing qi in the dantien to lower vibratory rate and produce jing, which can be utilized for martial purposes, v. allowing it to fill up naturally and then ascend towards the middle and upper dantien for spiritual purposes? Or have I totally missed the mark here?

 

I was reading the Damo Mitchell book yesterday and he seemed to be describing something similar to the latter, where he was wanting to convert jing into qi, but I would swear I've read other methods which do the opposite (or at least maximize jing production for it's own sake without converting to qi).

[寒月 Hanyue]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more....

 

Academic(ish) hat on.

 

The word I know is 蓄 xu. And this term has been translated in various ways that mean quite different things in English, and can shift a practice considerably in my experience.

 

A basic dictionary provides;

• store up
• hoard
• save
• gather
• grow

It carries the idea of creating more space, to enable more in. It is not about 'filling' per se, which in English has the connotation of an end, a point when it becomes 'full'.

 

Practical(ish) hat on.

 

I can only speak of my own experience from what I have been taught and practiced. Should go without saying, but still. In this post, in this thread I am commenting from my experiences and teachings in the Yin style Bagua Daoist lineage of medicine and dao yin, the Stillness-Movement Daoist neigong lineage, and a little known Himalyan yogic lineage.

 

The 'breath' or pulsation of the energy body is related to dantian gong, this is why you can simultaneously feel an inward flux and an outward expansion. Everything going out or coming in is not good, balance and harmony always. The outward expansion is the yangqi, the weiqi, due to TCM people think weiqi only runs superficially under the skin, which is absolute nonsense.

 

I am going to make two points;

 

1) I feel it should be kept in mind, before confusion arises, that there are in fact two broad yet inter-related aspects of dan-dao or dantian gong. Yes you guessed it...

• Hou-tian (post-"heaven")
• Xian-tian (pre-"heaven")

The former (hou-tian) is largely about breathing, the breath and its refinement, and the subsequent physiological and psychological shifts (dao yin) that occur from breath-work. Yes this is where Lui Guizhen's definition of "qigong" comes from and why most understand qigong as 'breathing'. Additionally, the physical/structural development of "dantian" in wugong (martial work) from the IMA, is post-heaven work and related, but different again to the breath work.

 

The latter (xian-tian) is not about breathing. It is about something else, and the gateway for this is genuine 'stillness''. And yes this is more what others such as Hu Yaozhen refer to as "qigong" and why anyone who has experienced this knows "qigong" is not about breathing. It is concerned with something not easily put into words, xian-tian qi.

 

While some teach that you have to work with one to progress to the other, this is not so. A teacher is needed with both methods, but needed less with the post-heaven methods.

 

Working with the dantian, the method, the why, and the what, for the above two are different. End of story. They may look the same, and may even use the same language, but they are not the same thing in any stretch of the imagination.

 

2) That the methods of both hou-tian and xian-tian dantiangong in the different lineages mentioned above, are more similar than they are not. This includes the Himalayan yoga which in and of itself does not recognise nor intentionally develop "dantian", and no, chakras and dantian are not the same thing.

 

Best,

Edited December 30, 2013 by snowmonki

[SonOfTheGods]

I was reading the Damo Mitchell book yesterday and he seemed to be describing something similar to the latter, where he was wanting to convert jing into qi, but I would swear I've read other methods which do the opposite (or at least maximize jing production for it's own sake without converting to qi).

 

Great book!

[Green Tiger]

It also in my experience is not possible to be up and around and moving and maintain deep trance.

 

Your experience and mine are not congruent in this case. One of the first times I ever achieved what I would call 'deep trance' was while I was performing standing qigong movements. I certainly think it is easier to get deep with seated stillness meditation, but practicing movement (particularly movements that are deeply ingrained in your muscle memory) for a prolonged period of time can facilitate deep trance as well.

[Enishi]

Your experience and mine are not congruent in this case. One of the first times I ever achieved what I would call 'deep trance' was while I was performing standing qigong movements. I certainly think it is easier to get deep with seated stillness meditation, but practicing movement (particularly movements that are deeply ingrained in your muscle memory) for a prolonged period of time can facilitate deep trance as well.

 

Ditto.

 

Oftentimes experiencing spontaneous movements during standing meditation leads to a deeper trance for me, whereas sitting by contrast can make it hard for me to detach from my brain's endless analyzing.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Enishi

[joeblast]

 

Ditto.

 

Oftentimes experiencing spontaneous movements during standing meditation leads to a deeper trance for me, whereas sitting by contrast can make it hard for me to detach from my brain's endless analyzing.

and the perfect antidote is to beat it to submission via rote anapanasati

[thelerner]

and the perfect antidote is to beat it to submission via rote anapanasati

anapanasati, is that a real word? or made up by someone losing at Scrabble.

 

Its back to basics, following the breath cycle attentively, right.

[SonOfTheGods]

 

anapanasati, is that a real word?

[soaring crane]

Neil Armstrong spelled backwards is:

 

Gnorts, Mr. Alien

[silent thunder]

Neil Armstrong spelled backwards is:

 

Gnorts, Mr. Alien

That is just so appropriately oddly strange n funny...

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Your experience and mine are not congruent in this case. One of the first times I ever achieved what I would call 'deep trance' was while I was performing standing qigong movements. I certainly think it is easier to get deep with seated stillness meditation, but practicing movement (particularly movements that are deeply ingrained in your muscle memory) for a prolonged period of time can facilitate deep trance as well.

 

Ditto.

 

Oftentimes experiencing spontaneous movements during standing meditation leads to a deeper trance for me, whereas sitting by contrast can make it hard for me to detach from my brain's endless analyzing.

 

I don't know of any way to be up around and moving and breathing once per minute with a heart rate so low it can't be felt.

 

That state isn't like anything else I know of, it will certainly change how you perceive reality.

Edited December 31, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[Friend]

 

Ditto.

 

Oftentimes experiencing spontaneous movements during standing meditation leads to a deeper trance for me, whereas sitting by contrast can make it hard for me to detach from my brain's endless analyzing.

 

Since one sits in school, at home at the desk

to solve problem. Sitting can have strong association to have thoughts.

 

But when one stands one actually do something.

And rarely people stand around with their eyes closed and

do something and if then one has to touch at the back of nose

or the chin or somewhere else in the face.

 

Actually when one stands and has the eyes closed mostly when one

enjoy something in the enviroment. Like at the seashores, in the mountains

facing the mild sun, or smelling at flowers. The fresh in woods.

[joeblast]

In considering Biochemical Signaling (jing hint), the concept also applies to Neural Circuits, the ongoing streamlining of potentials and signal to noise ratios modulate the 'awareness potential' and 'depth of stillness.'


Signal-to-noise ratio is defined as the power ratio between a signal (meaningful information) and the background noise (unwanted signal):

where P is average power



Consider the amplitude potential of the meditator/session/awareness/stillness also as P

We all know Ohm's Law,

where I is the current (amplitude potential)
V is the potential difference measured across the conductor
and R is the resistance of the conductor

 

 

Simple enough - relax.


Now where anapana comes in, let's consider an expanded idea of resistance, Electrical Impedance. The key difference here being both magnitude and phase.

Consider an example of some harmonic oscillators:

or perhaps better,

and it is easy to see that when things are in phase, the amplitudes constructively amplify. Relaxed and in phase? Even better! Slightly more complex case with the body and the lower dantien, breathing, etc...but it is the rote anapana where you really work this stuff out and feel where the culmination of energy potential is for a given component, then it is up to you to combine, time them all together so as to produce the greatest amplitude. Timing, timing. Refine it.

 

The amplitude potential one is able to muster is a function of the depth of stillness one is able to attain.

 

When you've put in enough gongfu, the habit-energy of the work you've done re-programs the medulla with this enhanced timing and carries forth. This calms the nerves (stills the heartmind) and reduces the amount of neural firing that takes place. Its like taking a load off the system: the function, when dropped beneath a threshold of neural stimulation, no longer derives that stream of energy from which to resonate.

 

All of those refinements affect the signal to noise ratio - just like dropping the flow of air beneath the threshold of turbulence in the air passageways eliminates the little vortices of air that form and rob energy from the flow of air - this also happens on the neural scale. Below the threshold, the active firing stops and the raw energy potential of the action remains unmanifest. The challenge is how to....ah, sit with unmanifest? Like the inertia of any habit-energy, the more diligent you are, the more coherent the probability potentials become, to manifest un-manifest.

 

Unmanifest is where its at, because then a nifty little quantum mechanical ruling applies, which came from trying to determine particle spin and various detectors:

 

(I'll say a=3 and b=4, only two amplitudes just to keep the example simple)

-if the events happen in sequence, multiply the amplitudes: a*b = 3x4=12

(When practicing, events not in coherence will have the lesser outcome;)
-if the events are in coherence but can be distinguished, square the multiples then add: a²+b²

=9+16=25

(In refining, one finds coherence yet events are at least partly still of the mind and thus distinguishable;)
-if the events cannot be distinguished, add before absolute squaring: |a+b|² = |3+4|², ^2=49
(Practice until the foreground fades away, background becomes the foreground - and certain events will start to become indistinguishable.)

 

From this indistinguishable, the light of ongoing focused awareness shines forth - and with that higher P first introduced above, this also correlates to the likelihood of such a state manifesting....manifesting the unmanifest, hahaha

 

Its nothing short of establishing the habit-energy of the ongoing enlightenment experience, if you want to extrapolate a bit.