h.uriahr Posted January 2, 2014 IME the work I've done with my middle dantian is WAY more effective than what I've done with my lower dantian. The whole lower dantian IMO is overrated. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
寒月 Hanyue Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) anapanasati= mindfulness of breath hence, the famous Anapanasati Sutra that many people quote without realizing it Apologies in advance, but in the least to play a little devils advocate, actually anapana doesn't mean "mindfulness of breath" it literally means something like yes/no prana, with sati meaning awareness. The natural fluctuation, pulsation and movement of prana is most grossly seen in the breath mechanism. However all high level teachers I know teach that this is kindergarten in the bigger picture, ie only an intial step. "Today there is much confusion surrounding the practice of anapana meditation. The problems stem from the misconception of the word 息 xi or hsi. Many cultivation sects, the Japanese Zen schools included, confuse the in-and-out breathing for xi. Therefore when they teach the students to meditate by counting the xi they are simply counting the breathing, not the xi that stands for the source of life without the movements of inhaling and exhaling... ...life is sustained by a continuous movement of expansion and contraction, or how energy functions. The goal of anapana meditation is to cultivate that “movement,” not to cultivate the in-and-out of the respiratory breathing. This has to be clear from the outset.” Nan Huai Jin “the meditation on breathing, on the basic dharma of prana or energy flow. Anapanasati is not, in fact, a meditation on breath, but on in/out prana. That is what this meditation is for – awareness of energy flow. And if you were to examine the word anapana quite closely, taking it back to it’s Sanskrit roots, you really end up with “yes/no energy”. Actually, it could be “no/no energy,” because literally the word could be understood as follows: a + na and a + pana, which makes two negations... This meditation is enumerated as the way to develop awareness of the energy feeds. You start with the breath because it is the most crude, the most obvious energy flow. The meditation naturally unfolds from there. Maybe the awareness of breathing might cease, but the awareness of energy flows, of the ana-pana-sati, should not." Namgyal Rinpoche This is also why in Daoist xian-tian practice the "breath" is not considered a primary mechanism for the method, is it involved? Of course, the same as many physiological functions are. But it is not the focus of practice. This is why I stated the difference between hou-tian and xian-tian dantian gong earlier. All schools Hindu, Buddhist, and Daoist recognise this distinction. Learning to feel the pulsation of the "energy"-body as related but distinct from the physical breath is not as difficult as some may have you believe. Best, Edited January 2, 2014 by snowmonki 9 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
寒月 Hanyue Posted January 2, 2014 IME the work I've done with my middle dantian is WAY more effective than what I've done with my lower dantian. The whole lower dantian IMO is overrated. Can you talk more about this? I have heard from several people they prefer to use the thoracic dantian. I understand reasons for using different locations, but it is always nice to hear direct experiences from people and what they have felt and found themselves. Best, 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 2, 2014 Can you talk more about this? I have heard from several people they prefer to use the thoracic dantian. I understand reasons for using different locations, but it is always nice to hear direct experiences from people and what they have felt and found themselves. Best, Yea I'd be interested in hearing more about this as well. Since my return to formal practice several years ago, I get more action and sensation in the mdt than the lower. Lower was active minimally for a few weeks, then the middle seemed to light up after my yongchuan points opened up, with magnetic resonance and very pleasant vibrations. It's been this way since... Every once in a while there will be some sensations in the ldt, but the majority of my sensations come in other areas of the body, predominately the mdt, mingmen, hands, feet, face, temples, skin surface, under the skin. Everywhere but the ldt basically In any event, I continue with Form I daily, still focused on the ldt and the mdt lights up almost immediately and will hum softly for a few minutes until it settles down. I don't chase sensations, but keep a hand written journal which is one of the best ideas my teacher gave to me, being able to go back and consult in detail things that were happening years ago is invaluable. I then move on to Form II which is MCO and energy running through various circuits. I get the sense from what I've read and from my own experience that once the ldt is expanded and flowing/rotating well, the rest of the body begins to receive the increased flow automatically, so this has led to the mdt sensations as either blockage is released, (there have been some very strong emotional releases and realizations in the area of old emotional issues that has resulted in the heart chakra opening up some of late), or the mdt is expanding and increasing its flow/rotation. Hard to say, I just know that I'm experiencing greater health and releasing old garbage, so I continue... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SonOfTheGods Posted January 2, 2014 In Magick, it is all about the MDT Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 2, 2014 In Magick, it is all about the MDT Interesting. I have no formal exposure to any systems of Magick, but have read a bit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
寒月 Hanyue Posted January 2, 2014 Interesting. Can you post links to where you got the quotes? Sorry, they aren't from websites. The Nan Huai Jin quote is from the Anapanasati conversations 'e-book'. I always found it interesting since Bodri goes on about anapanasati and its benefits and only discusses it as a 'breathing' method. The other quote is from a book on Tibetan Buddhism by Namgyal Rinpoche. I want to be clear, I am not saying that breath work is not a part of anapanasati, but that it is only one way to enter into the work of anapanasati, and it has become the dominant and most common one, to the extent that most now appear to believe that that is all it is. The same has occured with Daoist tu na fa. Best, 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted January 2, 2014 In Magick, it is all about the MDT When talking about the MDT, are we considering its location heart or solar plexus? Both are important, I think Taoism is more heart centered, in some writings putting the location centered between the nipples. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Friend Posted January 2, 2014 ...life is sustained by a continuous movement of expansion and contraction, or how energy functions. The goal of anapana meditation is to cultivate that “movement,” not to cultivate the in-and-out of the respiratory breathing. This has to be clear from the outset.” Nan Huai Jin “the meditation on breathing, on the basic dharma of prana or energy flow. Anapanasati is not, in fact, a meditation on breath, but on in/out prana. That is what this meditation is for – awareness of energy flow. This meditation is enumerated as the way to develop awareness of the energy feeds. You start with the breath because it is the most crude, the most obvious energy flow. The meditation naturally unfolds from there. Maybe the awareness of breathing might cease, but the awareness of energy flows, of the ana-pana-sati, should not." Namgyal Rinpoche Someone who know its stuff, This is very good information. I have get this concept practical by sinking the breath, the breathing and energy. The breath can only go as far as the lungs and into the blood flow. The breathing is different and penetrate down to the feet while pooling in the lower Dantien. The energy it tends to follow the breath but seem at the same time not matching the breath and move on own speed in and out like a fluid. When the Qi is sinked for the path it follows with the breath the body is shaken and the body is like a christmas tree lighting up! At this time the Qi is really sink into the dantien and gather there. After that I think Lower Dantien work based on destillation from Air can be considered. Else I find it empty work with little amount. Good method is the first sitting exercise from Hsin Tao and the dissolving by B.K.Frantzis to reach this. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
寒月 Hanyue Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) the dissolving by B.K.Frantzis to reach this. Hey mate, Some further food for thought on this. In Bruce's system he discusses it as the physical breath and the subtle breath, in Longevity Breathing you refine and shift from one towards the other. His breathing method was originally part of his kaihe (open/close) neigong set, called Marriage of Heaven and Earth. This neigong set is about feeling and exploring kai-he or "pulsing" throughout the physical and energetic bodies. The dissolving process is a precursor in that be releasing and opening the physical and energetic bodies, it is more likely that you will be able to feel the natural pulsations, since they will be less stuck. That said, I have also been taught method that tune straight into these pulsations, and use them to 'dissolve' what is stuck. So thesedays I perceive the two as intimately related, but not in any linear way. Best, Edited January 2, 2014 by snowmonki 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
h.uriahr Posted January 2, 2014 As to location I use my heart as my center of focus. I take a few moments to focus, let my breathing even out and then scan down to my heart. Once settled inside I start to recite the Prayer of the Heart. I recite it mentally but with a focus as if its coming from my vocal cords, it resonates downward into my heart, vibrating my chest. I must ad that I am a Believer in Christ so my Faith drives my practice. The amazing part is that things happened in the order described in the Ladder of Divine Graces. A heat took over my heart. An Awesome, Loving, Warmth. Centered in my Heart but warming my Being as a Whole. Then came the most intense Spiritual Moments of my Life. Pure Intimacy with The Lord. They happened outside of my Sessions, during Intense Worship but no doubt fueled by these deep Prayer Sessions. I usually use Prayer Beads, a Rosewood Mala to be exact, but what I find is that I get so deep that the beads stop and when I resurface I finish my rotation. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
h.uriahr Posted January 2, 2014 OPINION ALERT****OPINION ALERT**** People often fail or their results fall short of expectation because they don't believe in what they are practicing. They have this hope that stays on the surface. Nothing on the surface will bring about results because like a shallow rooted tree, the first storm uproots and destroys it. Your own lack of faith in what you practice is your hurdle. I know my what I practice and how I cultivate works because I am constantly striving to move closer to God the Father, Through MY Lord Christ Jesus, By the Power of the Holy Spirit. My FAITH keeps me shackled and grounded so that I don't wander off. ALSO for some serious Heart cultivation look at Tenaga Dalam. Gtummo too. Many people think that the ldt is the only focus but its not. The Heart, Navel or both can be focused on. Santiago Dobles showed me this. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 2, 2014 It's hard to explain in words. But off late I've started feeling that the LDT is actually a void (in that energy that is sent into it can never fill it). It is not possible to fill it, it is not a gas tank. The energy frequency can be altered, that's all. Each dan tian has it's function. UDT for spiritual practice, MDT for healing (both physical and psychological) and LDT for life energy. It is not a good idea to be one dimensional at the expense of others, imho. Also, different people have different centers active (some have UDT more active, some MDT and some LDT). So while it's a good idea to start with the LDT, others must be done too. 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
寒月 Hanyue Posted January 3, 2014 As to location I use my heart as my center of focus. I take a few moments to focus, let my breathing even out and then scan down to my heart. Once settled inside I start to recite the Prayer of the Heart. I recite it mentally but with a focus as if its coming from my vocal cords, it resonates downward into my heart, vibrating my chest. I must ad that I am a Believer in Christ so my Faith drives my practice. The amazing part is that things happened in the order described in the Ladder of Divine Graces. A heat took over my heart. An Awesome, Loving, Warmth. Centered in my Heart but warming my Being as a Whole. Then came the most intense Spiritual Moments of my Life. Pure Intimacy with The Lord. They happened outside of my Sessions, during Intense Worship but no doubt fueled by these deep Prayer Sessions. I usually use Prayer Beads, a Rosewood Mala to be exact, but what I find is that I get so deep that the beads stop and when I resurface I finish my rotation. Thank you for sharing, very informative OPINION ALERT****OPINION ALERT**** People often fail or their results fall short of expectation because they don't believe in what they are practicing. They have this hope that stays on the surface. Nothing on the surface will bring about results because like a shallow rooted tree, the first storm uproots and destroys it. Your own lack of faith in what you practice is your hurdle. I know my what I practice and how I cultivate works because I am constantly striving to move closer to God the Father, Through MY Lord Christ Jesus, By the Power of the Holy Spirit. My FAITH keeps me shackled and grounded so that I don't wander off. ALSO for some serious Heart cultivation look at Tenaga Dalam. Gtummo too. Absolutely!! Well said. Many people think that the ldt is the only focus but its not. The Heart, Navel or both can be focused on. Santiago Dobles showed me this. Well the OP is asking about the LDT. But I don't know any method that solely attempts to isolate the LDT in ignorance of the others. Thanks again for sharing more about your practice. All the best, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SonOfTheGods Posted January 3, 2014 When talking about the MDT, are we considering its location heart or solar plexus? Both are important, I think Taoism is more heart centered, in some writings putting the location centered between the nipples. Heart & solar plexus, overlaid with a hexagram (sometimes) 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted January 3, 2014 Is there any consensus on a better word then 'fill' the dan tien? I agree its not the best. Concisely, what is the best/better paradigm? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted January 3, 2014 get too descriptive and people still get confused there has to be some sort of relative potential-crest, a threshold, passing a coefficient of friction, of whatever application. I've said this many times but there's no real word for it, besides...ah..."fill".... not that there is necessarily one, or a single one... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 3, 2014 After practice today I'd say, it's not filling, so much as it's releasing through the thresh-hold/resistance factor yielded by my current level of tension vs relaxation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Green Tiger Posted January 3, 2014 Expanding and strengthening, maybe? Making the dandien more sensitive to movement? Certainly, it requires more attention to go to that place, whatever the effect may be called. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
h.uriahr Posted January 3, 2014 Ima call it Gobbledeegoopin until we settle Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 3, 2014 IMO, an awareness of the LDT changes over time and practice. So 'filling' may simply be a connective awareness to the role of the LDT. At this point, I feel that I talk with my LDT and it talks to me. But it is but one part of the whole and if I only listen to one part then I will still be as the blind leading the blind. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BaguaKicksAss Posted January 3, 2014 Hmmm, since we have yet to agree upon what the dantien *is* (see other thread), it might take awhile before we come to a consensus about what we are doing with it . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
h.uriahr Posted January 3, 2014 I've seen them referred to as cauldrons. Cauldrons hold stuff....you can fill a cauldron so I think fill is ok. I've also seen elixir field...elixirs are put into containers....fields are open to be filled with seeds so I think fill is ok....BUT....I have no idea what I'm doing at any given point in time so I'm certainly NOT a professional. My opinions have opinions... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) My experience with the MDT while sky gazing was infinity i.e, no limitation. I have read some writers from the Sufi tradition that have said the same thing regarding the infinite space of the heart center. From what little I know, the dantiens are centers of creative potential. That is all I know at the moment. Positing an anthropocentric/materialist view is an error. Edited January 3, 2014 by ralis 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
