Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[ChiDragon]

Sigh! Sigh! Sigh!
I just want to cry after reading these posts here. :(

I was told by many members, here, by not reading too many books but go find myself a good teacher and learn from him/her. I see that many TTB members had paid some teachers, bought many books to read, and even went to China to learn martial arts and many Kungs(功). What has been bothering me was since they had learn all the good things from their masters, but still cannot come up with a good definition of Dan Tien. I am really feeling sorry for them for trying to figure it themselves by trial and error and doing lots of guess work. IMHO There must be a conclusion which can be reached to come up with a true definition about all these. Don't you all think so? Don't you think that we could come up with something concrete, so, everyone can live with it by consensus?

Edited January 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Cheshire Cat]

My experience with the MDT was a painful gastritis which lasted a few days. I stopped the practice.

 

My experience with the LDT was an unbearable excess of sexual energy which tried to leak out continuously.

I understand the reasons behind the mopai rule of three days rest after sex and why it's so important.

[joeblast]

It would be silly to treat it too much like a container. a field is technically without spatial limit, but consider the probability distribution of an appropriately descriptive wave function will drop to inconsequential at a certain distance. of course, what that distance is, depends on the potential of the source considered.

[h.uriahr]

So does the dantian have a starting point?

[NotVoid]

Is there any consensus on a better word then 'fill' the dan tien? I agree its not the best. Concisely, what is the best/better paradigm?

 

As I mentioned previously in this thread, there are/have been a lot of different systems and practices out there. Even in my own limited experience these various systems do not all take the same approach, or view things the same way. Just within 'daoism' itself, which actually encompasses a lot of different systems and views and practices, these various systems, goals, practices, and views can vary quite a lot. When you add in other sources of internal cultivation such as from buddhism and martial arts traditions and various private family cultivation traditions, etc., you have many different approaches and systems and views. You may be able to come up with some sort of consensus of view here, but it won't likely reflect the actual full variety of systems and practices and views which are actually out there. From what I have encountered, not all teachers even put the 'dantians' at the same location. The way different systems cultivate dantian seems to have a lot of variation. People need to get away from this idea that 'it is all the same thing' and consider that there really seems to be a lot of different systems which were developed with different goals, different views, and sometimes very different approaches. All these approaches and views may and probably do have at least some common characteristics, but there are what appears to be quite definite differences as well. Even within daoist internal alchemy for example, different lineages may take somewhat different approaches and have different views. From what I have seen, there are martial practices, medical and health practices, spiritual cultivation practices, and other practices as well that may not fit any one particular pidgeon hole. Many of these practices may have quite different approaches and views. This has been my own experience anyway. Some systems require strict celibacy for certain practices in their system, while other systems or practices may not have any such restrictions. Different systems, different views, different goals, different practices. If you are looking for a generic term, then 'cultivating dantian' might work somewhat, but it would really seem that exactly how the lower dantian or other points/meridians/channels/centers/areas are viewed and exactly how they are used and cultivated in any particular system can vary a fair bit from system to system, lineage to lineage, and practice to practice.

Edited January 3, 2014 by NotVoid

[寒月 Hanyue]

Sigh! Sigh! Sigh!

I just want to cry after reading these posts here. :(

I was told by many members, here, by not reading too many books but go find myself a good teacher and learn from him/her. I see that many TTB members had paid some teachers, bought many books to read, and even went to China to learn martial arts and many Kungs(功). What has been bothering me was since they had learn all the good things from their masters, but still cannot come up with a good definition of Dan Tien. I am really feeling sorry for them for trying to figure it themselves by trial and error and doing lots of guess work. IMHO There must be a conclusion which can be reached to come up with a true definition about all these. Don't you all think so? Don't you think that we could come up with something concrete, so, everyone can live with it by consensus?

 

 

丹可丹，非常丹。名可名，非常名

 

Dan ke dan, fei chang dan. Ming ke ming fei chang ming.....?

Edited January 3, 2014 by snowmonki

[JohnC]

In many high level systems I've heard it talked about that the lower dantien is just a starting place. Not THE starting place.

 

But that as you develop your entire body will become an energy center.

 

John

[寒月 Hanyue]

But that as you develop your entire body will become an energy center.

 

Yes, this IS the dantian in dantian gong. It is 'sandan he yi', (three dan become one), that really there is just one dantian that is you. Many neidan commentators say that the use of 'dantian' singular refers to the "lower" dantian, but it is a mis-understanding IMHO. If we consider Da Vinci's Vitruvian man in a similar vein. It is also what Lao Zi refers to, it is why the term 'shou yi' exists, but again people have turned that term into debate and argument over where the 'one' that is guarded actually is, as though it is a location.

 

As for consenus, having two lineage holders of Daoist practice that were taught in a direct and traditional manner independently explain the same view of dantian, how to work with them, what they are, why they are, where they are and how or why the various opinions regarding location etc exist, and that you will only understand through direct personal experience, well that is good enough for me.

 

Best,

Edited January 3, 2014 by snowmonki

[Ya Mu]

It would be silly to treat it too much like a container. a field is technically without spatial limit, but consider the probability distribution of an appropriately descriptive wave function will drop to inconsequential at a certain distance. of course, what that distance is, depends on the potential of the source considered.

Good point!

 

--------------------------

Dan Tian is first a "place" then, when created, a field. Hence Dan Tian.

I look at it as "place where energy storage and transmutation occurs".

 

When a person does authentic neigong true seers see the dan tian getting denser and denser, brighter and brighter. The "denser" is the storage aspect. The "brighter" is the amplitude & frequency. As the person cultivates the energy "spills over" into the entire energy distribution system of the body, opening gates, channels, and then centers. The energy eventually rises up opening up all the centers of the body-energy body and connects us with source OR, in some systems, other specific vibratory planes; this depends on the quality of the energetic system. If it is more for martial art then it is going to be more dense. If it is for awareness it is going to be a higher frequency OR source. All this eventually raises the energy body vibration rate. The morals of a person does influence this vibration and, in many systems, if a person is not a "good and moral person" they cannot sustain the higher vibratory rates. In fact, these higher vibrations cannot be sustained unless 1) person practices daily 2) The person stays calm (inward calmness) 3) is a good and moral person where moral is defined more as the Taoist "virtue" concept but certainly does overlap with many religious "moral" definitions. This "moral" also is what is expressed as one's true nature when dancing in wu wei, and in some cases differs greatly from strictly religious "moral" definitions.

 

Lower dan tian cultivation is crucial to assisting a straight forward natural progression in awareness without developing many of the pitfalls associated with starting somewhere else. The key is to get the field going to a point where it opens all the channels and gates and is of a particular vibratory nature. This helps one to deal with emotional aspects and other physical aspects BEFORE attempting things like heart centered (how can one be "heart centered if they don't deal with their own emotional aspects first?), seeing or "3rd eye" type phenomena (how can one truly "see" before they burn through their own filters? The "seeing" would be illusion.). Once this is done then the next energy center opens and then we deal with that particular aspect. To bypass this progression can certainly be done but we have seen many problems associated with this.

 

IMO a person most definitely should start with LDT, create a field and go from there. The "transmission" many of you refer to can help a person create that field as well as give it a starting point in vibration that is of the particular vibration of the associated lineage, versus a person having to arrive at that point themselves. It is not a "short cut" as the person HAS to practice daily to maintain it, but it can save quite a bit of time in reaching a particular point of awareness IF a person practices. IME this appears to be 3 years versus 10-15 of cultivation of reaching the same point in awareness. If a person doesn't practice then all they are doing is speaking of a concept which they personally cannot understand as all this IS experiential and is totally meaningless without the practice.

[SonOfTheGods]

Is there any consensus on a better word then 'fill' the dan tien? I agree its not the best. Concisely, what is the best/better paradigm?

 

exploiting the designated cavity

[SonOfTheGods]

It would be silly to treat it too much like a container. a field is technically without spatial limit, but consider the probability distribution of an appropriately descriptive wave function will drop to inconsequential at a certain distance. of course, what that distance is, depends on the potential of the source considered.

 

If Tan Tien is a Quantum Field, then it can be Particle or Wave

[ChiDragon]

 

 

丹可丹，非常丹。名可名，非常名

 

Dan ke dan, fei chang dan. Ming ke ming fei chang ming.....?

 

Is that what you think the case was.....???

 

IMO It didn't has to be this way. It was only in one's unintuitive mind. BTW 丹(Dan) is not 道(Tao), you know.....!!!

 

Sigh!!!

Edited January 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

Is that what you think the case was.....??? IMO It didn't has to be this way. It was only in one's unintuitive mind. BTW 丹(Dan) is not 道(Tao), you know.....!!!

Sheesh...Don't they have humour in China?? : (

[ChiDragon]

Sheesh...Don't they have humour in China?? : (

Yes, but this is not something to be humor about....

Edited January 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ralis]

I would like to hear about concrete experiences as opposed to theoretical conjecture.

[ralis]

 

If a person doesn't practice then all they are doing is speaking of a concept which they personally cannot understand as all this IS experiential and is totally meaningless without the practice.

 

Excellent point!

[ChiDragon]

I would like to hear about concrete experiences as opposed to theoretical conjecture.

Why would you like to be emphasized on the former and disregard the latter....???

 

The concrete experiences are revealed from the phrase "氣沉丹田". It is a matter of understanding rather than taken 20 years of practice for one to perceive it.

 

 

PS....

Don't you think by knowing the theory before performing the actual practice is more beneficial than doing it blindly.,,,???

Edited January 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[silent thunder]

In my experience the dan tiens work like generative fields.

Similar to this picture of the magnetic field generated by the heart.

 

 

As for filling it, the field can gain in density, which would equate to filling up for me, but it is in constant flux as energy flows into and out of the field according to natural function, with the forces of attention, emotion, natural 'external' conditions, affecting its density and size.

[Friend]

Sigh! Sigh! Sigh!

I just want to cry after reading these posts here. :(

 

I was told by many members, here, by not reading too many books but go find myself a good teacher and learn from him/her. I see that many TTB members had paid some teachers, bought many books to read, and even went to China to learn martial arts and many Kungs(功). What has been bothering me was since they had learn all the good things from their masters, but still cannot come up with a good definition of Dan Tien. I am really feeling sorry for them for trying to figure it themselves by trial and error and doing lots of guess work. IMHO There must be a conclusion which can be reached to come up with a true definition about all these. Don't you all think so? Don't you think that we could come up with something concrete, so, everyone can live with it by consensus?

Sigh Sigh Sigh too we here talk about the

esoteric side of the Dantien.

 

The materialist explaination is that there is no Dantien.

It is only a vague describtion of the state of the physical body.

The "filling of the Dantien" occurs by releasing the chronic tension

in the pelvis area.

 

The abdominal breathing are actually massaging this

area so that gradually by deep breathing the tension is

released and the blood can flow freely in the frozen muscles.

The chronic tension is hindering the fascia the full range of movement and stopped

by the area of tension.

 

When the pelvis is gaining mobility the blood cause the inside to feel more warm

and heat as the largest atery, the renal artery is less constricted by the the tension

of the pelvis and can expand without restriction.

As the mobility increase more one can feel the pelvis muscles more better and

people desribe it as "rotation of the dantien".

The physical body is released and as the chronic tension is gone is reduce its use

of ATP energy by musclecontration.

 

Since the centroit and the center of mass is around and below the navel area

the pelvis tension is creating a shifting of both

into a unnatural state which is drawn to the tension.

The release of the tension will bring the body back

into is original form which people call natural.

The centroit and the center of mass are back in place for the physical body.

The body is fluid in movement because of the lack of restriction at

the core.

 

Beside this the lower abdomen has brainsubstance

which is known as the "second brain" which produce mainly the serotonin

which regulates mood, appetite and sleep, memory and learning.

A lack of serotonin can cause agression or depression.

The work on the so called "dantien" is stimulating "the second brain".

The inner organs of the abdomen are more moved by the release of the

pelvis.

 

Later when the pelvis is mobile the practise of a yoga posture known

as "Full lotus" is used to have pelvis in a position which allow

greater movement than the crosslegged sitting.

 

Between this after having gained or regained the mobility or even

increased the mobility of the pelvis the "reverse breathing"

is used to strengthen the pelvis which cause the "lifting of the perineum".

 

One has to be very gentle in movement in the practise of reverse breathing

as the use of too much force may cause chronic tensions which cost time and

effort to release them again.

 

The effort one gain with this practise is the "inner power" to use the trained pelvis

which is superior to the frozen pelvis either in strength and in in mobility.

As force is measured by how soft the muscles was and how strong the contraction.

The greater the difference between the relaxed state and contracted state the stronger

the "inner power" can be generated.

 

So the Dantien does not exist in the physical world but is an old concept

from people of the past were not able explain the anatomical and biochemial process

which happen happen in the lower abdomen of the physical body.

 

Then there are the definition of the esoteric practise of the Dantien.......

 

ROFL

[ralis]

In my experience the dan tiens work like generative fields.

Similar to this picture of the magnetic field generated by the heart.

 

 

electromagneticfieldofheart.jpeg

 

As for filling it, the field can gain in density, which would equate to filling up for me, but it is in constant flux as energy flows into and out of the field according to natural function, with the forces of attention, emotion, natural 'external' conditions, affecting its density and size.

 

 

It seems to me as if one is in the dream as well as the real world. How deep does the rabbit hole go?

 

What I mean by 'real world' is consensus reality.

Edited January 3, 2014 by ralis

[ralis]

Instead of visualizing steaming cauldrons in the LDT, why not just fall into the vastness of that space and see what happens?

[Brian]

 

PS....

Don't you think by knowing the theory before performing the actual practice is more beneficial than doing it blindly.,,,???

 

Absolute not.

 

You learn to shoot a basket by shooting baskets. You learn to swim by getting in the water. You learn to ride a bicycle by getting on a bicycle.

 

How many people do you know who can explain how a bicycle works? How many do you know who can ride one?

[ralis]

Absolute not. You learn to shoot a basket by shooting baskets. You learn to swim by getting in the water. You learn to ride a bicycle by getting on a bicycle. How many people do you know who can explain how a bicycle works? How many do you know who can ride one?

 

Most of what is practiced is textual theory which leads to a realization of the theory as opposed to the root of consciousness, whatever that is.

[Leif]

How about cultivating LDT in two different systems at one time.

 

This is general question, but to illustrate it with real world example better, say we have one system with sitting meditation (sitting with zen mudra) then there is another one with same position but different breathing (eg. breathing percentages like in Sunn Yee Gong or Flying Phoenix) or with different mudra.

 

Are the effects cumulative, complementary or independent (ie. you end up with two fields of different energies)?

Effects as in a ) energy that can be used to heal others b ) energy to open own energy system

Edited January 3, 2014 by Leif

[silent thunder]

It seems to me as if one is in the dream as well as the real world. How deep does the rabbit hole go?

 

What I mean by 'real world' is consensus reality.

One of the reasons I chose the heart's magnetic field for the analogy was that it is registered scientifically in consensus reality.

As our instruments get more sensitive, perhaps a similar discovery will yield to the more subtle energies that those of us in cultivation experience first hand, but cannot share due to the subtle/personal nature of the experience.

 

Instead of visualizing steaming cauldrons in the LDT, why not just fall into the vastness of that space and see what happens?

I sense the image of the cauldron may stem from exactly what you describe and the mind assigning a symbolic image of reference with which it can relate to...