Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[Friend]

How about cultivating LDT in two different systems at one time.

 

This is general question, but to illustrate it with real world example better, say we have one system with sitting meditation (sitting with zen mudra) then there is another one with same position but different breathing (eg. breathing percentages like in Sunn Yee Gong or Flying Phoenix) or with different mudra.

 

Are the effects cumulative, complementary or independent (ie. you end up with two fields of different energies)?

Effects as in a ) energy that can be used to heal others b ) energy to open own energy system

You will cultivate different energies and different energy systems.

There is a thing called cultivationenergy which is typical for the system

it is as having a specific frequency and so have specific properties.

It is part of the school, the energy of the teacher, the lineage and the form.

 

For example I expirience superfical the difference of the Qi that is developed

by system, one can use the intent and tune into this energy.

At times there are huge amount like a sea and can heal but it protects for example

not so good against cold. While the later one is covering and stop entering but projection would

be nearly hands on and the cultivation takes year to create a pool to use.

 

This knowledge alone make me not speak ill of other systems as they provide treasure

to learn about and from. And some forms serve as tool and can be use to make whatever Qi to run.

 

Beside this neutral sort of Qi that is inherit in all systems are always execise with,

this is even when one do distance projection it is different than one is personal

with the practioner of the arts. For a example even a layman can project qi and this

is first little because he gives a part from him which is normally reserved for his own energy system

but since it comes from there it is assimilated by the person.

There are qigong which predigest qi in this manner before projecting, first have to fill their dantien

and after projection have to refill and on mastery they can do this endless while producing more than projected.

 

Also I found is if one practise is mastered - which is when the built up is complete

and further practise is to grow in its capacity (mastering doesnt mean one is done, as one can refine

and going deeper - then one can add another art.

 

When one use another system which also in system establishing then energy is divided

and one seem to not develop as one like.

 

Some arts help each other and other a like planting another tree into the same ground sharing the nutrients

and others are neutralizing or destroy the other.

Some are altering the system while other unfolding the system.

Some are clearing the system.

 

I found that it is a bit difficult to cultivate different sort of Qi at the same time,

manageable and timeconsuming, the more near they are the easier they are complimentary.

Other thing is when one exercise one system and then have exercise in addition then

one overwhelm the energybody with work.

 

If you are not an experimentator you may like to stick to one system

and forfeit additional system to gain advantage and exercise it few years to gain stability.

and the awareness to see when the piece of the system is make into one own.

 

[ChiDragon]

Absolute not. You learn to shoot a basket by shooting baskets. You learn to swim by getting in the water. You learn to ride a bicycle by getting on a bicycle. How many people do you know who can explain how a bicycle works? How many do you know who can ride one?

 

Well, that was a gross analogy.

 

First of all, one would know not to shoot the basket from underneath. Perhaps one would know, ahead, to shoot it from the top.

 

Secondly, one wouldn't jump into the ocean as beginner for a swim.

 

Thirdly, If I ask for the time, there is no need for you to tell me how the clock was constructed. For the same token, there is no need to know how the bike was constructed. One just need to know how to balance oneself and paddle.

 

Edited January 3, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The materialist explaination is that there is no Dantien.

It is only a vague describtion of the state of the physical body.

The "filling of the Dantien" occurs by releasing the chronic tension

in the pelvis area.

 

Well, IMO, "filling of the Dantien" is not a very good terminology.

 

The abdominal breathing are actually massaging this

area so that gradually by deep breathing the tension is

released and the blood can flow freely in the frozen muscles.

The chronic tension is hindering the fascia the full range of movement and stopped

by the area of tension.

 

IMO, abdominal breathing is more like massaging the internal organs rather than releasing the blood flow. It is because that the blood is always flowing in the body. By your assumption, the frozen muscle was not mainly caused by the slow circulation. It may be caused by the lack of some chemical elements such as calcium, sodium and potassium to release the muscles after contraction.

 

When the pelvis is gaining mobility the blood cause the inside to feel more warm

and heat as the largest atery, the renal artery is less constricted by the the tension

of the pelvis and can expand without restriction.

As the mobility increase more one can feel the pelvis muscles more better and

people desribe it as "rotation of the dantien".

The physical body is released and as the chronic tension is gone is reduce its use

of ATP energy by musclecontration.

 

This is kinda vague to be discussed.

 

Since the centroit and the center of mass is around and below the navel area

the pelvis tension is creating a shifting of both

into a unnatural state which is drawn to the tension.

The release of the tension will bring the body back

into is original form which people call natural.

The centroit and the center of mass are back in place for the physical body.

The body is fluid in movement because of the lack of restriction at

the core.

 

Beside this the lower abdomen has brainsubstance

which is known as the "second brain" which produce mainly the serotonin

which regulates mood, appetite and sleep, memory and learning.

A lack of serotonin can cause agression or depression.

The work on the so called "dantien" is stimulating "the second brain".

The inner organs of the abdomen are more moved by the release of the

pelvis.

 

I won't touch that.

 

Later when the pelvis is mobile the practise of a yoga posture known

as "Full lotus" is used to have pelvis in a position which allow

greater movement than the crosslegged sitting.

 

Between this after having gained or regained the mobility or even

increased the mobility of the pelvis the "reverse breathing"

is used to strengthen the pelvis which cause the "lifting of the perineum".

 

One has to be very gentle in movement in the practise of reverse breathing

as the use of too much force may cause chronic tensions which cost time and

effort to release them again.

 

I won't go into that neither.

 

The effort one gain with this practise is the "inner power" to use the trained pelvis

which is superior to the frozen pelvis either in strength and in in mobility.

As force is measured by how soft the muscles was and how strong the contraction.

The greater the difference between the relaxed state and contracted state the stronger

the "inner power" can be generated.

 

It seems to be a fallacy as compared to my understanding. The inner power is only depends on the strong contraction of the muscles rather than the difference in softness and the strong contraction of the muscles. The ATP can be, only, generated when the muscles are being in a contractual state.

 

 

So the Dantien does not exist in the physical world but is an old concept

from people of the past were not able explain the anatomical and biochemial process

which happen happen in the lower abdomen of the physical body.

 

Yes, but the old concept of the Dantien has no bearing on the anatomical and biochemical process. The lower Dantien is merely a description of a position which happens to be where the abdomen is located.

 

Then there are the definition of the esoteric practise of the Dantien.......

 

ROFL(yeah......me too)

Edited January 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Yes, but the old concept of the Dantien has no bearing on the anatomical and biochemical process. The lower Dantien is merely a description of a position which happens to be where the abdomen is located.

 

This may be the experiential difference between simple meditation vs qigong vs alchemy.

 

Some meditations don't really care how the LDT develops as the focus is merely on breathing.

 

If one ever gets past 'merely' in their practices they will understand why a baby first crawls before it walks before it runs.

Edited January 4, 2014 by dawei

[joeblast]

...and then there's closing one's eyes tightly shut as to any possibilities...

[寒月 Hanyue]

Yes, but the old concept of the Dantien has no bearing on the anatomical and biochemical process. The lower Dantien is merely a description of a position which happens to be where the abdomen is located.

 

Exactly. As far as I know, "dantian" is a term that became popular during a certain time period. The adoption of that descriptor came AFTER the practices.

 

After the initial adoption of the term, it becomes popular and so all kinds of practices end up using the term.

 

Its like "core" training today, go back several decades no-one spoke of a 'core'. Now nearly everyone in any form of physical training speak of it! Yet ask 10 different people just what the "core" is, or how to work with it, and you know what? You'll get 11 different answers!

 

This is human nature, we certainly shouldn't think this only occurs with "esoteric" or "old" concepts.

 

Such debate and discussion ain't going to go away, not even with the power of the inta-webs

 

Best,

Edited January 4, 2014 by snowmonki

[dawei]

Exactly. As far as I know, "dantian" is a term that became popular during a certain time period. The adoption of that descriptor came AFTER the practices.

 

After the initial adoption of the term, it becomes popular and so all kinds of practices end up using the term

 

I would add that it is not merely after the practice but meant to describe the practice... thus, it has bearing on the biochemical process.

 

Thus, the biochemical processes and their locations are being described.

 

One cannot separate these, IMO.

 

We can accept that 'Qigong' is a modern term but the practice and the biochemical processes which we now call Qigong are well known to have existed for a long time.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I'm going to borrow a phrase from one of my teachers, and shift its context...

 

"dantian is the most AND least important thing..."

 

I firmly believe this. The easiest way to explain it is that I know people who have developed and cultivated dantian in a manner consistant with Daoist practices, including neigong and upto shengong. And they have NO concept of "dantian" within their system or lineage!

 

Talk about evidence for, the practice, the thing itself, is what is important.

 

Nature - mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers, doesn't matter where you are in the world.

 

Best,

Edited January 4, 2014 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

I would add that it is not merely after the practice but meant to describe the practice... thus, it has bearing on the biochemical process.

 

Thus, the biochemical processes and their locations are being described.

 

One cannot separate these, IMO.

 

We can accept that 'Qigong' is a modern term but the practice and the biochemical processes which we now call Qigong are well known to have existed for a long time.

 

Sure, absolutely. They chose and adopted the term because it made sense to the experiences arising from the practice.

 

I'm sure the people before the adoption of the term "dantian" felt that whatever terms they used also described their experiences, and as mentioned in my post above, you can choose to adopt other terms or explanations and box/label the experiences of neigong in completely different ways, it doesn't change what is actually being done or what you go through.

 

Which isn't to say or comment on whether or not "dantian" as a term is accurate or helpful. But it might highlight, why some even when practicing within the Chinese paradigm have varying opinions??

 

"There is the thing itself, then there is what we learn to experience it, and the two are not the same and shouldn't be confused." An old martial teacher of mine.

 

What is usually written down and passed on within a tradition, is the common denominator, the most likely experiences/phenomena surroudning something. Not all possible permutations or possibilities. Which is why if we think what was written is all there is, we are wrong, if we think it is what we should experience we are wrong, especially if it leads us to chase things other than allow and be present to the awakening sensations arising within us. Experiencing what we are and having that unfold is different. Confirmation of experience is always helpful to know we are not going astray, but this is where a teacher rather than a book is preferable IMO. Particularly as you shift more into the subtle teachings.

 

The transmission of a method occured via practice, then you go to the master and told them what had happened. They might then explain what you felt, and further guide your practice, or let you get on with it. Or they might not say anything at all. But this is how terms are learned.

 

Really the ONLY reason to adopt a term to describe an experience is to teach (also to discuss). Which is why learning from someone who is a 'natural' at something can be difficult, they aren't always fully aware of what it is that makes them good at something, and they don't always have the language or ability to communicate it for others to replicate. I have found this to be true for all things, physical, mental, energetic.

 

The transmission of terms is meant to help you not hinder you. As you say, it is form and emptiness, the object and the mirror, they are not separate things.

 

 

Best,

Edited January 4, 2014 by snowmonki

[SonOfTheGods]

Filling up the Tan Tien = is like the analogy of "Filling the Brain".

 

Feeding sounds more like it.

 

You can't "fill" the enteric nervous system, but you can "feed" it with intention/mind.

 

That physical counter-part, to the Whole Quantum Field

 

The flip side- how do you Feed a Yin Qi Field? Analyzing the equation from this end might help the former (i.e., I wouldn't say "filling" a Yin Qi field)

[寒月 Hanyue]

It would be silly to treat it too much like a container. a field is technically without spatial limit...

 

I'm going to come back to this, so I maintain some pragmatic contributions in the thread

 

The energy-body has a natural pulsation, it opens and it closes. Some days it will be bigger than others. In Summer it is bigger than in Winter. These cycles are observable in our selfs and in nature. I was just out in a park and you could see how much the trees have pulled their energy in during this time in Winter.

 

Our energy-body also responds to the shifting circumstances we find ourselves in. It is dynamic and not static. The "dan-tian" is a part of our energy-body, and each dantian also pulses, opening and closing etc.

 

There is an idea wrapped up in the Chinese term 'he' 合 (close) that means 'close in', rather than say 'close out'. I had this explained once using the Great Wall, which for many years was considered a barrier to stop others getting in (close out). However, understanding about this has changed in some circles. Now they view the wall as giving boundaries to the country, to enable the population to 'fill in' or 'close in' upto and behind the wall. Now whether or not this is true regarding the wall is not important.

 

What I want to highlight is that by having a border, we can fill in upto that border, which is expand into the border, this enables a sense of density to occur within, this is "containment". The border itself is not a fixed static thing, it too can be allowed to move in a direct proporsion to the filling in and building density.

 

If we simply expand, there is no containment. However, I am not talking about rigidly forcing anything, or resisting anything, it is more like an organic membrane.

 

It is not that we cannot simply tune into the natural pulsation of the energy-body, and listen to it opening and closing, we can, and doing so is a very good thing to do. It rebalances and dissolving blockages. We can also tune into 'energy-centers' and feel their natural pulsations.

 

But working with "containment" is different, it stimulates things, and develops things differently. And it is what I believe some, not all, but some of the dantian gong is about and what makes it different (not better, just different) to other methods.

 

But it is a natural part of the characteristics of the pulsation inherent in all things, this approach simply works with it, whereas other approaches may be more interested in other natural characteristics.

 

Once I had my aha moment, which I think I was quite slow to have, I have begun to see this fundamental energetic characteristic in SO much Daoist practice, in numerous ways!

 

Best,

Edited January 4, 2014 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

Exactly. As far as I know, "dantian" is a term that became popular during a certain time period. The adoption of that descriptor came AFTER the practices.

 

After the initial adoption of the term, it becomes popular and so all kinds of practices end up using the term.

 

Perhaps, this maybe in the West; but the phrase "氣沉丹田", sink Chi to the Dan Tien, was referring to the same thing for centuries since the existence of Gong Fu in the East. The 丹田(Dan Tien) in the phrase was understood that is referring to the lower Dan Tien throughout the martial arts industry. Anyway, it is immaterial right now how it came about. The important thing is that we have established the definition of Dan Tien(丹田) and should be treated it as a fact for the consistency of communication. Let's hope this will avoid further confusion in the future discussions.

 

Hopefully, we will not hear fallacies like

1. My Dan Tien was torn.

2. Rotating the Dan Tien 180 degrees.

3. I am going to fill my Dan Tien with Chi.

Edited January 4, 2014 by ChiDragon

[SonOfTheGods]

Hopefully, we will not hear fallacies like
1. My Dan Tien was torn.
2. Rotating the Dan Tien 180 degrees.
3. I am going to fill my Dan Tien with Chi.

Don't bet on it

[ChiDragon]

Don't bet on it

It's not really our problem but let's hope for the best.......

 

[h.uriahr]

Perhaps, this maybe in the West; but the phrase "氣沉丹田", sink Chi to the Dan Tien, was referring to the same thing for centuries since the existence of Gong Fu in the East. The 丹田(Dan Tien) in the phrase was understood that is referring to the lower Dan Tien throughout the martial arts industry. Anyway, it is immaterial right now how it came about. The important thing is that we have established the definition of Dan Tien(丹田) and should be treated it as a fact for the consistency of communication. Let's hope this will avoid further confusion in the future discussions.

Hopefully, we will not hear fallacies like

1. My Dan Tien was torn.

2. Rotating the Dan Tien 180 degrees.

3. I am going to fill my Dan Tien with Chi.

 

Do you have some lineages that you can provide to substantiate your claim? That all have that exact same non deviating definition?

[ChiDragon]

Do you have some lineages that you can provide to substantiate your claim? That all have that exact same non deviating definition?

Yes, but It is very consistent in the Chinese language. The only consistency one can find, in the West, are some fallacies and fiction stories. As you can see, that is why you are reading all these inconsistent wild tales about Dan Tien. If you have doubt, then you just have to question and determine which is a fact or fallacy yourself. I wouldn't accept all the things that I've read as facts. Be careful who you are talking to, even me. What it comes to is use your own judgement.

[h.uriahr]

Yes, but It is very consistent in the Chinese language. The only consistency one can find, in the West, are some fallacies and fiction stories. As you can see, that is why you are reading all these inconsistent wild tales about Dan Tien. If you have doubt, then you just have to question and determine which is a fact or fallacy yourself. I wouldn't accept all the things that I've read as facts. Be careful who you are talking to, even me. What it comes to is use your own judgement.

 

This thread is pointless

[ChiDragon]

This thread is pointless

Is it because you did not hear what you want to hear....???

 

To be honest with you, if the lineage did not recognize the phrase "氣沉丹田", sink Chi to the Dan Tien; that "the 丹田(Dan Tien) in the phrase was understood that is referring to the lower Dan Tien", then go find another lineage that does!

Edited January 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[thamosh]

Good point!

 

--------------------------

Dan Tian is first a "place" then, when created, a field. Hence Dan Tian.

I look at it as "place where energy storage and transmutation occurs".

 

When a person does authentic neigong true seers see the dan tian getting denser and denser, brighter and brighter. The "denser" is the storage aspect. The "brighter" is the amplitude & frequency. As the person cultivates the energy "spills over" into the entire energy distribution system of the body, opening gates, channels, and then centers. The energy eventually rises up opening up all the centers of the body-energy body and connects us with source OR, in some systems, other specific vibratory planes; this depends on the quality of the energetic system. If it is more for martial art then it is going to be more dense. If it is for awareness it is going to be a higher frequency OR source. All this eventually raises the energy body vibration rate. The morals of a person does influence this vibration and, in many systems, if a person is not a "good and moral person" they cannot sustain the higher vibratory rates. In fact, these higher vibrations cannot be sustained unless 1) person practices daily 2) The person stays calm (inward calmness) 3) is a good and moral person where moral is defined more as the Taoist "virtue" concept but certainly does overlap with many religious "moral" definitions. This "moral" also is what is expressed as one's true nature when dancing in wu wei, and in some cases differs greatly from strictly religious "moral" definitions.

 

Lower dan tian cultivation is crucial to assisting a straight forward natural progression in awareness without developing many of the pitfalls associated with starting somewhere else. The key is to get the field going to a point where it opens all the channels and gates and is of a particular vibratory nature. This helps one to deal with emotional aspects and other physical aspects BEFORE attempting things like heart centered (how can one be "heart centered if they don't deal with their own emotional aspects first?), seeing or "3rd eye" type phenomena (how can one truly "see" before they burn through their own filters? The "seeing" would be illusion.). Once this is done then the next energy center opens and then we deal with that particular aspect. To bypass this progression can certainly be done but we have seen many problems associated with this.

 

IMO a person most definitely should start with LDT, create a field and go from there. The "transmission" many of you refer to can help a person create that field as well as give it a starting point in vibration that is of the particular vibration of the associated lineage, versus a person having to arrive at that point themselves. It is not a "short cut" as the person HAS to practice daily to maintain it, but it can save quite a bit of time in reaching a particular point of awareness IF a person practices. IME this appears to be 3 years versus 10-15 of cultivation of reaching the same point in awareness. If a person doesn't practice then all they are doing is speaking of a concept which they personally cannot understand as all this IS experiential and is totally meaningless without the practice.

 

If i could like this post more than one time I would.....

 

What I like about this post was the fact that he wasnt quoting a book or theory.

 

What he says matches alot of my own personal experience.

 

I recently tried to explain this to a friend of mine.

 

 

if a person is not a "good and moral person" they cannot sustain the higher vibratory rates. In fact, these higher vibrations cannot be sustained unless 1) person practices daily 2) The person stays calm (inward calmness) 3) is a good and moral person where moral is defined more as the Taoist "virtue" concept but certainly does overlap with many religious "moral" definitions. This "moral" also is what is expressed as one's true nature when dancing in wu wei, and in some cases differs greatly from strictly religious "moral" definitions.

 

So so so tru......

 

When your training for ascension thru alchemy you have to leave the darker parts of your self behind in the past where they belong.

 

I know when I was training to develop my dan and thus the tian I was puting in about 7hrs a day of practice.

[h.uriahr]

Is it because you did not hear what you want to hear....???

To be honest with you, if the lineage did not recognize the phrase "氣沉丹田", sink Chi to the Dan Tien; that "the 丹田(Dan Tien) in the phrase was understood that is referring to the lower Dan Tien", then go find another lineage that does!

 

It's pointless because of all the static. You and I are both a part of the static. You didn't provide anything substantial to back up your claim. It would've been nice but you didn't. I understand if you have a reason but I was disappointed is all.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Perhaps, this maybe in the West;blah blah blah Let's hope this will avoid further confusion in the future discussions.

 

Yes, but It is very consistent in the Chinese language. The only consistency one can find, in the West, are some fallacies and fiction stories.

 

Are we really going to have all this again. Most here know you feel that non-Chinese don't know anything about Daoism or cultivation practice. And that with your decades of reading and developing your own qigong from your taiji experiences in the 70's you know all there is to know.

 

Is there mis-understanding in the West? of course! is there mis-understanding in China? of course!

 

But your posts seriously show a lack of awareness of what is taught by the Chinese, even today, and you appear to assume that any post made by a non-Chinese is simply their made up bullshit rather than what has been taught to them by legit teachers of these traditions.

 

I'm sorry if what people discuss does not fit with the sky you can see from your well. But I don't think anyone here is fooled by your attempts to denigrate others due to their ethnic background.

 

And if you think my Chinese teachers are talking crap, well, given their backgrounds and experience I'm still going to take their word for it over yours, sorry.

 

 

Be careful who you are talking to, even me. What it comes to is use your own judgement.

 

Sage advice indeed.....

 

Best,

Edited January 6, 2014 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

This is hard to accept, isn't it.....???

Edited January 6, 2014 by ChiDragon

[寒月 Hanyue]

It is hard to accept is it.....???

 

What, that you appear to be racist? Yes

Edited January 6, 2014 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

What, that you appear to be racist? Yes

The word "racist" is not in my dictionary. I say it with Taoist honor. It was only in your mind.

Edited January 6, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

What, that you appear to be racist? Yes

 

I wondered how long it would take for others to realize his anti-westerner disdain...

 

Yes... it is only in our minds.... not in his enlightened mind...