Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[joeblast]

Yeah, I see that particularly in the practice of the micro cosmic orbit. To much imagination and the real thing never gets developed. And the difference between the real thing and the oft imagined is huge; one a lightening bug, the other a lightning bolt, or so I'm told.

even better when you find a way to do it that manifests those results without a drop of visualization

[dwai]

even better when you find a way to do it that manifests those results without a drop of visualization

Which is nearly impossible to do

If you don't visualize initially, how do you know where to send the energy?

[joeblast]

emergent of fundamentals, discerning signal to noise ratios, enhancing...I mean, how much visualization is there at feeling this out and getting an idea of flux density, then working with that from there? I never dug the contrived method of MCO because it was too visualize-ey.

[joeblast]

I never much visualized light or things at the dantien...from rote breath mechanics with correct focus I was able to perceive it and work with it directly...didnt visualize the light, nor did I visualize it grow to my whole torso, to the edges of my body, evantually radiating out and beyond, where time and space disappeared. apply. teh. fundamentals!

[Ya Mu]

BKA said "I have been told by a few martial arts/qigong teachers that visualizing stuff actually screws up the natural process of the qi flow. I have also seen problems with the practices of folks who do a lot of visualization with their qigong."

 

even better when you find a way to do it that manifests those results without a drop of visualization

 

Very much agree.

 

Visualization and mind is very powerful, but always limited. Remove both and power is potentially instantaneous and potentially no limitation on amplitude.

 

Visualization/mind/intention :versus: energy/intent (developed and utilized on quantum level where intent is its own thing, used as a noun, once set drops out of the equation) = manifestation. Which of course doesn't make sense when spoken about and only makes sense to a practitioner who has experienced both.

[BaguaKicksAss]

YaMu, welcome to the Tech department's course in multiquoting!

 

click the little multiquote button sitting to the left of the quote button for the first post you want to quote... then keep scrolling down and click the multiquote box again for the 2nd post you want to quote. You can keep doing this for up to about 10 posts or so .

 

Then you just select the reply to "number of quotes" option...

 

This is a secret technique that most of the board does not know.

 

Enjoy!

[BaguaKicksAss]

Which is nearly impossible to do

If you don't visualize initially, how do you know where to send the energy?

 

More like just watch, or know it's there, or direct via physical feel from all I have been taught by a few folks.

[silent thunder]

I use a mixture of tactile visualization and inner eye visualization to great effect.

For things like LDT work, MCO, or breath awareness, it's almost all tactile with no images.

Sometimes the images come, like clouds they pass, no harm, no foul.

[thelerner]

Any movements or forms that assist the MCO? Or is it best done seated? or standing.

 

I'll throw this in, Is seated better then standing? If seated, does full lotus have any advantage w/ the MCO?

[joeblast]

best movement I've mixed in was just simple circle walking. I was working on palm changes to go with the notes but my investigation there is not complete, I only get to that every so often. seated better than standing, zz seems to change the focus a bit, but while there's a circle being walked, it seems to flow more harmoniously together. I've done my mco in lotus before a few times...I'll have to think about how I want to answer that though

[BaguaKicksAss]

Any movements or forms that assist the MCO? Or is it best done seated? or standing.

 

I'll throw this in, Is seated better then standing? If seated, does full lotus have any advantage w/ the MCO?

 

I find standing to be far better for this. My student too (and I had told him either way was good). Though personally my lower back gets achey if I stand still too long, so I cheat and do it sitting a lot. I also do it walking sometimes. Well what we do isn't quite MCO, but looks sort of similar.

[silent thunder]

I run MCO, seated, standing and lying down.

My strongest responses come while standing, but that doesn't tell me that it's the most effective.

MCO will kick in spontaneously as well while sitting here typing for instance, where I'll become aware of it already in motion without my intent to start anything and these responses can be stronger than any during an intended meditation.

 

It's like breath. Sometimes I'm choosing and initiating my breath in a certain intent.

Other times, I'm being breathed.

[dwai]

More like just watch, or know it's there, or direct via physical feel from all I have been taught by a few folks.

How do you "know" its there before you can feel it. And where is "there"? And even when you feel it, you are still using the mind to send that feeling to a specific point within your body (or follow a specific path). Why is this not "visualization"?

 

We should be careful to correctly differentiate between visualization and fantasizing.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Imagination-Becomes-Reality-Teachings-Complete/dp/0938045091

 

Remember, I'm stating this with beginners in mind. It is absolutely silly (imho), to tell a beginner that they shouldn't visualize but feel. Visualization will help beginners kickstart their practice.

 

If I tell you "feel oxygen", can you feel it?

Or, "Only if you feel oxygen you should breath". I'm being purposely polemic here. But when it comes to internal arts, there are no set rules beyond the guidelines provided. They have been provided for a reason and they work for a reason.

Edited January 10, 2014 by dwai

[Green Tiger]

 

Which of course doesn't make sense when spoken about and only makes sense to a practitioner who has experienced both.

 

I think I have a tough time differentiating visualization from intent. Like, for instance, when I shield I definitely 'see' the shield in my mind, which I sort of think as my intent, but could also be construed as a kind of visualization. I also feel the shield surround me simultaneously, which definitely isn't a visualization, it's a feeling.

[Brian]

 

I think I have a tough time differentiating visualization from intent. Like, for instance, when I shield I definitely 'see' the shield in my mind, which I sort of think as my intent, but could also be construed as a kind of visualization. I also feel the shield surround me simultaneously, which definitely isn't a visualization, it's a feeling.

The way it seems to work for me (and I am a rank amateur so take what I say with a block of salt and look for correction by others) is that visualization may be sort of a bootstrap -- a way to prime the pump, so to speak -- but that it is limited in effectiveness and should be dropped ASAP. So, in the instance of the shield, for example, visualization might be used to set the shield but wouldn't be used to maintain the shield, and the need to visualize the shield should quickly diminish with practice until soon it isn't even needed for the initiation.

[Ya Mu]

I think I have a tough time differentiating visualization from intent. Like, for instance, when I shield I definitely 'see' the shield in my mind, which I sort of think as my intent, but could also be construed as a kind of visualization. I also feel the shield surround me simultaneously, which definitely isn't a visualization, it's a feeling.

If you see it it is happening and feel it is happening it already has happened and you didn't have to visualize. The difference is linear versus non-linear.

Intent, as I am using the word, gets more powerful/develops/grows with the wai qi liao fa experience.

 

The way it seems to work for me (and I am a rank amateur so take what I say with a block of salt and look for correction by others) is that visualization may be sort of a bootstrap -- a way to prime the pump, so to speak -- but that it is limited in effectiveness and should be dropped ASAP. So, in the instance of the shield, for example, visualization might be used to set the shield but wouldn't be used to maintain the shield, and the need to visualize the shield should quickly diminish with practice until soon it isn't even needed for the initiation.

One problem is that when a person starts with the visualization method, for many it becomes more difficult to transition to direct.

 

YaMu, welcome to the Tech department's course in multiquoting!

 

click the little multiquote button sitting to the left of the quote button for the first post you want to quote... then keep scrolling down and click the multiquote box again for the 2nd post you want to quote. You can keep doing this for up to about 10 posts or so .

 

Then you just select the reply to "number of quotes" option...

 

This is a secret technique that most of the board does not know.

 

Enjoy!

The last time I tried using it the system kept crashing - but this was when I couldn't get the text box in order to reply only 25% of the time which is apparently repaired now. I miss the ability, which we used to have, of quoting then copy & paste, which is what I tried without success in the post. I need to get used to this multiquoting working (semi, as in I hit "multiquote" on all three of these then it put the top one that I hit first at the bottom)

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

The last time I tried using it the system kept crashing - but this was when I couldn't get the text box in order to reply only 25% of the time which is apparently repaired now. I miss the ability, which we used to have, of quoting then copy & paste, which is what I tried without success in the post. I need to get used to this multiquoting working (semi, as in I hit "multiquote" on all three of these then it put the top one that I hit first at the bottom)

 

Well it's obviously because your qi just wasn't strong enough for this particular technique at that point in time, but since you have been practicing since then, you can now use multiquote easily....

 

Or perhaps because Sean fixed some bugs .

 

One of the two....

 

In case you don't know about it, that little box on the top of the tools section when doing a post gives the edit in code option which is really handy for some better copy/paste options .

[joeblast]

 

If I tell you "feel oxygen", can you feel it?

you mean that sparkly glowy superfluid?

[dawei]

visualization may be sort of a bootstrap -- a way to prime the pump, so to speak -- but that it is limited in effectiveness and should be dropped ASAP.

 

I think as is being said, visualization is sometimes hard to differentiate from other related issues of intention or feeling and it also depends on the application.

 

I see some talking about visualizing 'light' but for me, that is usually not my use or meaning of visualizing. It may be other's use or it may be what non-visualizing folks think that visualizing folks mean. For me, visualizing is almost synonymous with intention and even sensitivity. For example, if you can sense energy in another person, does it visualize?

 

But let's take some application examples:

1. You feel energy stuck in your elbow or ankles. How do you clear that?

2. You feel energy stuck in another person, somewhere. How do you clear that? Do you give them something to 'do'?

3. You feel a sick energy go from another person into you. How do you instantly stop it from penetrating further up your arm?

 

I am not saying that visualization is necessary for anyone's practice but it has its applications.

 

I do agree with Ya Mu who said that starting with it may be more difficult to move away from it... but if one figures out how to do it, they can then utilize the full spectrum of using it or not.

 

 

Added:

I also realize that I have added some 'clearing' practices which use visualization. Move turbid Qi out of the body. I do a spine lengthening and cleansing to deal with a spine issue I have.

Edited January 10, 2014 by dawei

[SonOfTheGods]

 

 

The last time I tried using it the system kept crashing - but this was when I couldn't get the text box in order to reply only 25% of the time which is apparently repaired now. I miss the ability, which we used to have, of quoting then copy & paste, which is what I tried without success in the post. I need to get used to this multiquoting working (semi, as in I hit "multiquote" on all three of these then it put the top one that I hit first at the bottom)

 

You aren't actually posting- you are just visualizing it!

[SonOfTheGods]

& Full Lotus for MCO all the way

[SonOfTheGods]

I never much visualized light or things at the dantien...from rote breath mechanics with correct focus I was able to perceive it and work with it directly...didnt visualize the light, nor did I visualize it grow to my whole torso, to the edges of my body, evantually radiating out and beyond, where time and space disappeared. apply. teh. fundamentals!

 

is this in between condensing? or do you keep it radiating without condensing?

[BaguaKicksAss]

You aren't actually posting- you are just visualizing it!

 

Well to quote 3 different people, you have to be working on all THREE, jing, qi and shen .

[BaguaKicksAss]

From what I have noticed, and seen, visualization isn't very good for the practice since it tends to bring a huge pile of the qi up into the head, instead of whichever area of the body it's supposed to be in. Qi hanging out in the head predominantly is most definitely not a good thing.

 

In martial arts practice (as well as some qigong systems) we are taught to be in our lower dantien, or our feet, or roots deep into the earth. Not visualize these places, but actually feeling these areas. Our awareness and energy sinks to the area, instead of us visualizing it going down the channels it does naturally, or perhaps we notice it doing so.

 

Movements to assist such things, well the movements required for proper Bagua circle walking do it . I don't mean you have to circle walk, but the principals and body movements involved with it, also move qi around, and help it flow better . Even if standing still, or sitting.

 

Also the different practices for those brand new to things theory I hear a lot, I've never seen recommended in person. Of course things are more difficult to those who are brand new, but proper training is important, and having to untrain someone and retrain them can take quite some time.

 

It's difficult for me to describe, especially in text, not in person, on a computer screen.... I personally feel it more as an awareness...... a physical sensation...... but more inside my body instead of on the surface..... an allowing..... a noticing... never forcing. Also when they say the yi leads the qi, I don't personally think that's visualization, I think it is more like to place your awareness/consciousness where you wish things to flow to.

 

The difference I perceive is that folks using visualization keep things on the mental or astral plane, while those doing the feeling/awareness thing (sorry about the lack of decent descriptive words), are working it more on the etheric and/or perhaps physical plane.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

I'm still pretty new to qigong/martial arts, so just trying to describe what many have shown and taught me, what I have seen/felt in them, also some personal experience and working with 2 people that I'm helping learn this stuff. Hopefully someone who was trained in this way, with a decent level of experience will chime in some more, and actually use the proper words for things .

[dwai]

From what I have noticed, and seen, visualization isn't very good for the practice since it tends to bring a huge pile of the qi up into the head, instead of whichever area of the body it's supposed to be in. Qi hanging out in the head predominantly is most definitely not a good thing.

 

In martial arts practice (as well as some qigong systems) we are taught to be in our lower dantien, or our feet, or roots deep into the earth. Not visualize these places, but actually feeling these areas. Our awareness and energy sinks to the area, instead of us visualizing it going down the channels it does naturally, or perhaps we notice it doing so.

 

Movements to assist such things, well the movements required for proper Bagua circle walking do it . I don't mean you have to circle walk, but the principals and body movements involved with it, also move qi around, and help it flow better . Even if standing still, or sitting.

 

Also the different practices for those brand new to things theory I hear a lot, I've never seen recommended in person. Of course things are more difficult to those who are brand new, but proper training is important, and having to untrain someone and retrain them can take quite some time.

 

It's difficult for me to describe, especially in text, not in person, on a computer screen.... I personally feel it more as an awareness...... a physical sensation...... but more inside my body instead of on the surface..... an allowing..... a noticing... never forcing. Also when they say the yi leads the qi, I don't personally think that's visualization, I think it is more like to place your awareness/consciousness where you wish things to flow to.

 

The difference I perceive is that folks using visualization keep things on the mental or astral plane, while those doing the feeling/awareness thing (sorry about the lack of decent descriptive words), are working it more on the etheric and/or perhaps physical plane.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

I'm still pretty new to qigong/martial arts, so just trying to describe what many have shown and taught me, what I have seen/felt in them, also some personal experience and working with 2 people that I'm helping learn this stuff. Hopefully someone who was trained in this way, with a decent level of experience will chime in some more, and actually use the proper words for things .

 

Sometimes things will happen on their own. But imho, there are different practices that do that. For instance, when I was doing Tamil Siddhar Yoga, we would sit in vajrasana and hold specific mudras while doing pranayama with breath holds. And the energy would automatically rise up the spine to the crown point. No visualization was necessary. But there was a lot more physiological effort and training required with that.

 

Taiji And Qi Gong are different in that aspect, because while the form is important, the emphasis should be on energy. There are different schools of thought towards that. The better ones (imho) tend to follow these patterns:

 

1. Learn the physical forms/movements

2. Once you develop Qi awareness, start using mind to drive qi (i.e. via visualization)

3. Once you have enough coherence developed in your energy, the energy will start moving on it's own (in resonance with the energy "out there")

 

That's why learning Taiji and developing skill usually takes many many years. And every year as the skill improves, we feel like we are actually regressing back to a less-skillful state. And it is a humbling experience, since we tend to think in terms of skill attainment and then practice (go get a degree at your university and you are an expert). IMHO, these internal arts don't really have any end. They are infinite just like the Dao.

 

On second thought, perhaps we are not referring to the same thing when using the term "Visualization". To me, there is fantasizing and then there is visualization. Visualization involves intent (yi). And sometimes it might take a student a while to move from fantasizing to visualization even. But then, that's why we are asked to "relax" while doing internal martial arts. Because relaxation will naturally increase our awareness of Qi flow. Once we are aware of Qi, fantasizing will naturally convert to Yi/visualization.

Edited January 11, 2014 by dwai