Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[Aeran]

From what I have noticed, and seen, visualization isn't very good for the practice since it tends to bring a huge pile of the qi up into the head, instead of whichever area of the body it's supposed to be in. Qi hanging out in the head predominantly is most definitely not a good thing.

 

In martial arts practice (as well as some qigong systems) we are taught to be in our lower dantien, or our feet, or roots deep into the earth. Not visualize these places, but actually feeling these areas. Our awareness and energy sinks to the area, instead of us visualizing it going down the channels it does naturally, or perhaps we notice it doing so.

 

Movements to assist such things, well the movements required for proper Bagua circle walking do it . I don't mean you have to circle walk, but the principals and body movements involved with it, also move qi around, and help it flow better . Even if standing still, or sitting.

 

Also the different practices for those brand new to things theory I hear a lot, I've never seen recommended in person. Of course things are more difficult to those who are brand new, but proper training is important, and having to untrain someone and retrain them can take quite some time.

 

It's difficult for me to describe, especially in text, not in person, on a computer screen.... I personally feel it more as an awareness...... a physical sensation...... but more inside my body instead of on the surface..... an allowing..... a noticing... never forcing. Also when they say the yi leads the qi, I don't personally think that's visualization, I think it is more like to place your awareness/consciousness where you wish things to flow to.

 

The difference I perceive is that folks using visualization keep things on the mental or astral plane, while those doing the feeling/awareness thing (sorry about the lack of decent descriptive words), are working it more on the etheric and/or perhaps physical plane.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

I'm still pretty new to qigong/martial arts, so just trying to describe what many have shown and taught me, what I have seen/felt in them, also some personal experience and working with 2 people that I'm helping learn this stuff. Hopefully someone who was trained in this way, with a decent level of experience will chime in some more, and actually use the proper words for things .

 

I've always thought of visualization being top down, mental > astral > etheric > physical (loosely speaking, I'm fairly sure you can start to skip steps when you've developed enough and go directly from mental > etheric), whereas going off movement/breathing/sensation is bottom up, physical > etheric > astral > mental. As above so below and all that.

 

I don't think one method is inherently better, it depends entirely on what you're trying to do imo. Although it bears mentioning that even in the western/hermetic stuff I do, there's no "pure" visualization. It's a large part of many exercises, but always combined with intent, tactile sensation and often breathing or movement.

[dawei]

From what I have noticed, and seen, visualization isn't very good for the practice since it tends to bring a huge pile of the qi up into the head, instead of whichever area of the body it's supposed to be in. Qi hanging out in the head predominantly is most definitely not a good thing.

 

It sounds more like they don't combine the visualizing aspect correctly. If your trying to clear your legs and you break in and then down and out the feet, and you 'visualize' the turbid Qi going out the soles and 10 feet into the ground... the Qi should not end up in the head.

 

But as any thought, notion, concept, intention is a mental EMF this may be why they get Qi going up to their head as they are not directing it correctly away from the mind. Put your mind at your palms and that is where you should sense your mind (Qi)... Tai Ji teaches that as well.

 

In martial arts practice (as well as some qigong systems) we are taught to be in our lower dantien, or our feet, or roots deep into the earth. Not visualize these places, but actually feeling these areas. Our awareness and energy sinks to the area, instead of us visualizing it going down the channels it does naturally, or perhaps we notice it doing so.

 

How are you 'there?

 

The notion or thought of a 'lower dan tian' already has an image and location, a purpose and an outcome... Feeling and awareness are at times impossible to separate from the image of the concept or notion.

 

I think the word "visualization" is being used so far in a too restrictive manner. It is not one dimension of only 'seeing'; it is that aspect of the mind which contains the image part of the idea/thought/notion. Images are associated to ideas/thoughts/words. "Being in the lower dan tian" is equally a concept, idea, and an image to the brain. It does not separate them.

 

I would say those that use visualization simply turn that dial more or less, and IMO it is always a part of any thought, idea, or notion and is not restricted to energy aspect any more than an idea is only on energy but sometimes on the body or location.

 

 

Movements to assist such things, well the movements required for proper Bagua circle walking do it

 

So to me, this is just physical EMF as opposed to mental EMF... either one can assist such things. Knowing how to dial both means one knows more than one way to control the various aspects.

 

It's difficult for me to describe, especially in text, not in person, on a computer screen.... I personally feel it more as an awareness...... a physical sensation...... but more inside my body instead of on the surface..... an allowing..... a noticing... never forcing. Also when they say the yi leads the qi, I don't personally think that's visualization, I think it is more like to place your awareness/consciousness where you wish things to flow to.

 

Qi is always flowing... Some described it more like an illusion (ChiD) or like a sensation (Dwai). So many energy practices are really about developing the sensation (or awareness) as the Qi is always moving anyways. The image of this sensation is the visualization. I already made the case for how it is not possible for the brain to separate out various sides to this cube as they are an integral aspect. I think we are just accustomed to compartmentalizing in order to understand something.

 

 

The difference I perceive is that folks using visualization keep things on the mental or astral plane, while those doing the feeling/awareness thing (sorry about the lack of decent descriptive words), are working it more on the etheric and/or perhaps physical plane.

 

That may be possibly what some are doing... I can't answer to it as that is not my position.

 

I hope that made sense.

 

I'm still pretty new to qigong/martial arts, so just trying to describe what many have shown and taught me, what I have seen/felt in them, also some personal experience and working with 2 people that I'm helping learn this stuff. Hopefully someone who was trained in this way, with a decent level of experience will chime in some more, and actually use the proper words for things .

 

What you say makes sense from your point of view. I have mine.

[Brian]

 

I think as is being said, visualization is sometimes hard to differentiate from other related issues of intention or feeling and it also depends on the application.

 

I see some talking about visualizing 'light' but for me, that is usually not my use or meaning of visualizing. It may be other's use or it may be what non-visualizing folks think that visualizing folks mean. For me, visualizing is almost synonymous with intention and even sensitivity. For example, if you can sense energy in another person, does it visualize?

 

But let's take some application examples:

1. You feel energy stuck in your elbow or ankles. How do you clear that?

2. You feel energy stuck in another person, somewhere. How do you clear that? Do you give them something to 'do'?

3. You feel a sick energy go from another person into you. How do you instantly stop it from penetrating further up your arm?

 

I am not saying that visualization is necessary for anyone's practice but it has its applications.

 

I do agree with Ya Mu who said that starting with it may be more difficult to move away from it... but if one figures out how to do it, they can then utilize the full spectrum of using it or not.

 

 

Added:

I also realize that I have added some 'clearing' practices which use visualization. Move turbid Qi out of the body. I do a spine lengthening and cleansing to deal with a spine issue I have.

What I am attempting to describe perhaps could be called "flash-visualization." It is not a matter of visualizing the process or action and "making it happen" but of recognizing the existent state of being which is the "end result" and just letting it already be.

 

So, in your case of someone else's ailment, for instance, you set your intent on the already-is state in which that ailment is alleviated and simply let that state manifest in the here-and-now.

 

Or, in the shielding example, I don't visualize creating or extending a protective energetic bubble around me, I simply remember that it is already there.

 

Coworker I've previously written about who trashed her leg a couple months ago -- she e-mailed me yesterday to say she was having terrible trouble with pain and swelling and bone-bruising. She had been to the doctor and to her physical therapist earlier in the week and both said "ice, elevation, rest, etc." No new meds, no new exercises, no nothing. I was sort of her last resort and I told her I would stop by her office before the end of the day. Well, we had complications (a gas line explosion across town disrupted operations when it damaged a fiber-optic cable) and it was literally the end of the day before I got a chance. She was already gone, however, and when I texted her to apologize, she instead apologized for having left early. She had been in such pain that she had gone back to her PT to help with both her leg and her sciatica, but told me neither was any better. I told her I'd never done a distance healing but she would be my Guinea pig. She wanted to know "what she should do" and I told her nothing, but that I didn't know whether it would be last night or today when I would have an opportunity. This morning, I sat down to do my Stillness-Movement with the intent of later helping relieve her discomfort. I then gave her not another thought as I sank into stillness. In less than an hour, before I had even finished my sitting session and allowed my awareness "back to the surface," I heard my phone chime. She had sent me a text message which read "I am better. The swelling is down so is the pain. Thank you!"

 

EDIT: My point being that I didn't visualize the action of reducing inflammation and calming active nerves. I simply stilled myself, gathered energy into dan tien and "let it be so."

Edited January 11, 2014 by Brian

[dawei]

Or, in the shielding example, I don't visualize creating or extending a protective energetic bubble around me, I simply remember that it is already there.

 

Remembering a shield is to remember the image, shape, purpose, form, etc... that is still 'visualization' to me; there is a visual component otherwise the brain doesn't even know what the 'shield' is.

 

She had sent me a text message which read "I am better. The swelling is down so is the pain. Thank you!"

 

Same issue... To think of her is to visualize her. I don't see the brain would see this as so different. IMO, how our energies actually connect and communicate is not as important as the fact that it does.

[joeblast]

is this in between condensing? or do you keep it radiating without condensing?

no concept of condensing, just enhancing wax wane of flux density of lower dt, the rest just happened.

[dwai]

Remembering a shield is to remember the image, shape, purpose, form, etc... that is still 'visualization' to me; there is a visual component otherwise the brain doesn't even know what the 'shield' is.

 

 

Same issue... To think of her is to visualize her. I don't see the brain would see this as so different. IMO, how our energies actually connect and communicate is not as important as the fact that it does.

From an academic perspective, I see that people can conceptualize things in different ways. Some do it with imagery, some do it with text, some with sound. But usually it is a combination of all. I guess it depends on what someone is putting their emphasis on.

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

That's why learning Taiji and developing skill usually takes many many years. And every year as the skill improves, we feel like we are actually regressing back to a less-skillful state. And it is a humbling experience, since we tend to think in terms of skill attainment and then practice (go get a degree at your university and you are an expert). IMHO, these internal arts don't really have any end. They are infinite just like the Dao.

 

On second thought, perhaps we are not referring to the same thing when using the term "Visualization". To me, there is fantasizing and then there is visualization. Visualization involves intent (yi). And sometimes it might take a student a while to move from fantasizing to visualization even. But then, that's why we are asked to "relax" while doing internal martial arts. Because relaxation will naturally increase our awareness of Qi flow. Once we are aware of Qi, fantasizing will naturally convert to Yi/visualization.

 

You just described my entire experience, so far, with Bagua in that first paragraph .

 

I was meaning visualization in the sense that it is taught in the western mystery schools.

 

When I do sitting or standing meditations which move energy, I try 100% just feel instead of any seeing it sort of stuff, but noticing is OK. PS worked great for my insomnia, right after this post lol. Just get all that down into the feet and fast asleep right away heh.

[Brian]

 

Remembering a shield is to remember the image, shape, purpose, form, etc... that is still 'visualization' to me; there is a visual component otherwise the brain doesn't even know what the 'shield' is.

 

 

Same issue... To think of her is to visualize her. I don't see the brain would see this as so different. IMO, how our energies actually connect and communicate is not as important as the fact that it does.

I hear what you are saying (and, at least at my level, there IS a "brain" component) but I am trying to describe NOT having mind lead chi.

 

A Lego castle could be built by physically picking the pieces up one by one with your fingers and putting them together, or by telekinetically picking the pieces up and assembling the castle (think of a Jedi pointing at the pieces and levitating each in turn), or by doing an "I Dream of Jeannie" blink and instantaneously materializing a fully-built castle.

 

I'm not talking about manipulating energy (or Lego pieces) but about realizing a state of existence, if that makes sense.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Brian

[BaguaKicksAss]

I've always thought of visualization being top down, mental > astral > etheric > physical (loosely speaking, I'm fairly sure you can start to skip steps when you've developed enough and go directly from mental > etheric), whereas going off movement/breathing/sensation is bottom up, physical > etheric > astral > mental. As above so below and all that.

 

I don't think one method is inherently better, it depends entirely on what you're trying to do imo. Although it bears mentioning that even in the western/hermetic stuff I do, there's no "pure" visualization. It's a large part of many exercises, but always combined with intent, tactile sensation and often breathing or movement.

 

I have met very very few magicians who actually work with etheric energy. The ones who seem to, were born with the ability from what I can tell. Then a very few others are trained this way. I have not seen any modern occult orders which teach in this way. Now martial artists, I see a lot more of this going on... it must be the differences in training. I'd guess your martial arts training helped, or you were born that way. Though this is only based on the few hundred magicians in north america I've met and worked with over the years... you are on the upside down part of the world afterall . By martial artists I mean internally trained ones, by traditional teachers.

[BaguaKicksAss]

From an academic perspective, I see that people can conceptualize things in different ways. Some do it with imagery, some do it with text, some with sound. But usually it is a combination of all. I guess it depends on what someone is putting their emphasis on.

 

and what their teacher/s have them focus on...

[SonOfTheGods]

A true Mage is Born, not created.

[Ya Mu]

Remembering a shield is to remember the image, shape, purpose, form, etc... that is still 'visualization' to me; there is a visual component otherwise the brain doesn't even know what the 'shield' is. ...

The fact that the brain sees it after it has manifested does not mean there was a mental component in it being placed there.

 

Words don't do too well to describe what we are refering to here. In our system, we bypass the mental and go direct. Visualization cannot be defined except through a mental linear process. It works and works well, but will always be limited to the linear and measurable brain frequencies. SIne wave with a measurable cycle; linear. Whereas the method we use bypasses this, utilizing training to accesss non-linear space-time in creation or manifesting the outcome. We call this "intent" for lack of a better word but clarifying it has nothing whatsoever to do with the linear intention. In our use Intent = that through which the manifestation occurs utilizing energy. Intent and energy are developed together through practice. Potentially instantaneous and potentially with no limitatiion of amplitude; visualization will never be instantaneous as it has a pathway through measurable brain waves and its amplitude has to be visualized so it will always be finite unto that particular visualization. In our system our brainwaves dampen down instead of ramping up when we manipulate energy. If a person visualizes, their brain waves ramp up to induce the outcome of the visualization.

When I have measured qi projection between here and China, it was always as close to instantaneous as two people with stop watches could react. If I had of visualized the outcome there would have been a delay while the visualization process did its linear thing. WHen I set (developed) "intent" the energy is already there - it has already happened.

 

I realize those that have not been exposed to this are not going to undertstand what I am referring to. But I wanted to point out that there IS a difference between visualization methods and OTHER. And no, my explanation is not supposed to make mental sense nor be "technically" accurate. It is simply the best try I can make to talk around it. 35 years ago I personally would have questioned it severely.

But, as Brian says, it is a state of existance, a thing unto itself. OR a place of existance, a place unto itsef.

[dawei]

I hear what you are saying (and, at least at my level, there IS a "brain" component) but I am trying to describe NOT having mind lead chi.

 

I hear you too... and I was also trying to get beyond the Mencius Qigong idea of 'mind leads chi'... I think that this is an over-used cliche in energy circles. What most don't reconcile is that Mencius also said the reverse: 'chi leads mind'.

[dawei]

The fact that the brain sees it after it has manifested does not mean there was a mental component in it being placed there.

 

I didn't say the brain sees it after it has manifested... to me it is instantaneously prior on some level. But I'm not getting my point across but I appreciate your explanation as it is good to hear how your system views it and helps. Thanks.

[Friend]

The fact that the brain sees it after it has manifested does not mean there was a mental component in it being placed there.

I want to elaborate this for Dawei from my expirience with Shield.

It is that the Shield is command and then this Shield is there

and stays there.

 

In Visualisation the visualisation stays as long one imagine

the mental construct by constantly pouring attention energy

to recreate the inner mental picture every moment as

the picture maintain as long it is imagined.

As well the picture look as one imagined, maybe blurry and lacking

but as one think.

 

When one set intent and one do visualize

 

-since when one set intent for a purple bubble one

think and visualize automatic a purble bubble-

 

but

a second picture is overrule the imagined picture which look slightly different

and change and maintain stable. It might grow or shrink or is brighter.

The picture is not acting to ones expectation.

When one imagine over this "manifestation" it will erase the visualisation

and this feels not well when one interfere the manifestation.

 

One can easily do something else and it stays there.

When one get indulged in thought one loose the attention

as one do not think of a leg but a short attention and it is there

and a little more attention and the leg feels more alive.

I do know by instinctic that it is there and was there when I remember

that is there asking me why to put shields up when it is already there.

 

There are things I know that get inactive and prayers are reactivating

and act similar as a manifestation but in this lineage it stays there.

Same as healing work over month and still working.

 

While the visualisation stops when one stop thinking,

so since in the Stillnessmovement one is stopping the selfdialogue

and indulge in thought it would typical if it is a visualisation

stop it- but it isnt stop and at times can be seen without even

thought about.

[Ya Mu]

I didn't say the brain sees it after it has manifested... to me it is instantaneously prior on some level. But I'm not getting my point across but I appreciate your explanation as it is good to hear how your system views it and helps. Thanks.

And it could be we are speaking of similar things with different words.

 

I hear you too... and I was also trying to get beyond the Mencius Qigong idea of 'mind leads chi'... I think that this is an over-used cliche in energy circles. What most don't reconcile is that Mencius also said the reverse: 'chi leads mind'.

A good point and one I also have had contention with.

[Aeran]

I have met very very few magicians who actually work with etheric energy. The ones who seem to, were born with the ability from what I can tell. Then a very few others are trained this way. I have not seen any modern occult orders which teach in this way. Now martial artists, I see a lot more of this going on... it must be the differences in training. I'd guess your martial arts training helped, or you were born that way. Though this is only based on the few hundred magicians in north america I've met and worked with over the years... you are on the upside down part of the world afterall . By martial artists I mean internally trained ones, by traditional teachers.

 

Yeah you're right, most magicians (the traditional types, and those who were influenced by them even moreso - wiccans, chaotes, thelemites, etc) don't do much etheric stuff, but it isn't entirely missing from western magic. The Middle Pillar is a staple of Golden Dawn (and offshoots) training, and the energy involved in that is primarily etheric. It's also an essential part of Bardon's IIH (probably because of his heavy Eastern influence) syllabus - where he teaches working with the vital force and condensing the elemental/electric & magnetic fluids down to an etheric/physical level.

 

And I don't really have a martial arts background heh, Less than two years of doing qi gong on and off out of books/videos is about it (other than working up to a blue belt in karate back in primary school). Although I would like to change that.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Aeran

[BaguaKicksAss]

Yeah you're right, most magicians (the traditional types, and those who were influenced by them even moreso - wiccans, chaotes, thelemites, etc) don't do much etheric stuff, but it isn't entirely missing from western magic. The Middle Pillar is a staple of Golden Dawn (and offshoots) training, and the energy involved in that is primarily etheric. It's also an essential part of Bardon's IIH (probably because of his heavy Eastern influence) syllabus - where he teaches working with the vital force and condensing the elemental/electric & magnetic fluids down to an etheric/physical level.

 

And I don't really have a martial arts background heh, Less than two years of doing qi gong on and off out of books/videos is about it (other than working up to a blue belt in karate back in primary school). Although I would like to change that.

 

The middle pillar is one of the exercises I was thinking of / referring to . Bardon as well (for most magicians). Completely differently energy/qi than martial artists and qigong folks work with. The former isn't as solid and dense.

 

There's a good chance we may just have to agree to disagree on this one...

[BaguaKicksAss]

A true Mage is Born, not created.

 

What about transmission?

[Aeran]

The middle pillar is one of the exercises I was thinking of / referring to . Bardon as well (for most magicians). Completely differently energy/qi than martial artists and qigong folks work with. The former isn't as solid and dense.

 

There's a good chance we may just have to agree to disagree on this one...

 

 

I have no idea what you're practicing or working with, so it's hard to say :/ I've always seen energy more as a spectrum anyway, so labeling them gets tricky. I don't doubt that whatever energy you work with in your martial arts is denser than the Middle Pillar/Vital Force etc. energies if you say that it is, but the latter are, by the commonly accepted definition and categorization, definitely etheric energies, and definitely denser than the astral energies involved in most western magic. If someone is doing those exercises and not getting an etheric energy, they're doing it wrong by definition (which happens quite a bit with Bardon apparently, people, especially those with a background in golden dawn style western magic, accumulate the astral light instead of the vital force).

 

Maybe something like:

 

Astral

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

Etheric

-

-

-

Middle Pillar/Vital force

-

-

-

-

-

Bagua?

-

-

Physical

 

Now, my own personal experience is that the energies I've felt in qi gong are very similar (in property and density) to the vital force/middle pillar energy (although it's possible I'm just not sensitive enough to distinguish), but that doesn't mean that the energy you work with in your Bagua isn't an entirely different one with a different density. If hanging out here has taught me one thing, it's that different martial/internal arts work with a wide spectrum of different energies.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Aeran

[Enishi]

I've always thought of visualization being top down, mental > astral > etheric > physical (loosely speaking, I'm fairly sure you can start to skip steps when you've developed enough and go directly from mental > etheric), whereas going off movement/breathing/sensation is bottom up, physical > etheric > astral > mental. As above so below and all that.

 

I don't think one method is inherently better, it depends entirely on what you're trying to do imo. Although it bears mentioning that even in the western/hermetic stuff I do, there's no "pure" visualization. It's a large part of many exercises, but always combined with intent, tactile sensation and often breathing or movement.

 

My take on it is that it's possible to go akashic > mental > astral > etheric > physical. I've tried out the Void meditations/absorbtions Mistele suggests and noticed that it's similar to the non-linear state I experience when doing Stillness/Movement (also the latter made the former far easier).

Edited January 12, 2014 by Enishi

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have no idea what you're practicing or working with, so it's hard to say :/ I've always seen energy more as a spectrum anyway, so labeling them gets tricky. I don't doubt that whatever energy you work with in your martial arts is denser than the Middle Pillar/Vital Force etc. energies if you say that it is, but the latter are, by the commonly accepted definition and categorization, definitely etheric energies, and definitely denser than the astral energies involved in most western magic. If someone is doing those exercises and not getting an etheric energy, they're doing it wrong by definition (which happens quite a bit with Bardon apparently, people, especially those with a background in golden dawn style western magic, accumulate the astral light instead of the vital force).

 

Maybe something like:

 

Astral

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

Etheric

-

-

-

Middle Pillar/Vital force

-

-

-

-

-

Bagua?

-

-

Physical

 

Now, my own personal experience is that the energies I've felt in qi gong are very similar (in property and density) to the vital force/middle pillar energy (although it's possible I'm just not sensitive enough to distinguish), but that doesn't mean that the energy you work with in your Bagua isn't an entirely different one with a different density. If hanging out here has taught me one thing, it's that different martial/internal arts work with a wide spectrum of different energies.

 

How come your quotes never have the person's name in them? I think you need proper quote/multiquote transmission from YaMu .

 

I'm not basing this on my own experience (much), as I'm only one person. I'm basing it on the several dozen modern magickians I've worked with and seen work over the years. Then compared with the couple dozen martial artists/qigong people I have worked with or seen work...

 

I would personally put the middle pillar right next to astral myself, same with Bardon's stuff as practiced by most. You may be going about it more in a qigong sense, but I've not seen another do the MP this way yet, nor seen it taught this way.

[BaguaKicksAss]

It sounds more like they don't combine the visualizing aspect correctly. If your trying to clear your legs and you break in and then down and out the feet, and you 'visualize' the turbid Qi going out the soles and 10 feet into the ground... the Qi should not end up in the head.

 

I've seen lots of... a little trickle going down and out the feet, while a majority of the qi just goes up into the head or chest. That is likely solved with more practice though. But I think lots of sinking of qi would help too.

 

But as any thought, notion, concept, intention is a mental EMF this may be why they get Qi going up to their head as they are not directing it correctly away from the mind. Put your mind at your palms and that is where you should sense your mind (Qi)... Tai Ji teaches that as well.

 

I like this idea . I tend to plunk it all down into the ldt or feet or roots usually (just what I've been working on lately). Also been working on some whole body stuff as well, but more feeling from inside the body. I guess qi does naturally end up in the hands, since everyone's hands warm up during practice. This one person I know always had cold hands during practice for many years, but then one day... it worked .

 

How are you 'there?

 

The notion or thought of a 'lower dan tian' already has an image and location, a purpose and an outcome... Feeling and awareness are at times impossible to separate from the image of the concept or notion.

 

Some things are really hard to put into words, how *I* do it, is more like when I run my hand across the carpet and feel it. I wouldn't call it a physical being there, but close. I guess I would think ldt for a split second, then end up being there... harder to do and type at the same time anyways, however I do it lol.

 

I'm sort of curious now how others do it, or how they interpret "do not visualize".

 

I think the word "visualization" is being used so far in a too restrictive manner. It is not one dimension of only 'seeing'; it is that aspect of the mind which contains the image part of the idea/thought/notion. Images are associated to ideas/thoughts/words. "Being in the lower dan tian" is equally a concept, idea, and an image to the brain. It does not separate them.

 

I was using it in the sense of visualize the energy at the perineum, bring it up the back to the top of the head, then down over the head and back down around past the perenium again (stopping at various points along the way optional). Or perhaps different colours along with this. This is not a practice I presently do, just an example.

 

As opposed to say noticing the natural movement of such things just by thinking OK time to do some ZZ. Or allowing it to just go... Or just knowing the roots are there. Definitely interesting to think about this, and I'm going to ask some further questions of my much more experienced with this friends . Though some go further than I do and just notice energy, don't even try to focus on any particular area or etc.).

 

I would say those that use visualization simply turn that dial more or less, and IMO it is always a part of any thought, idea, or notion and is not restricted to energy aspect any more than an idea is only on energy but sometimes on the body or location.

 

Makes sense. Though I personally see noticing a feeling or seeing some qi suddenly come out of my hands at some random time, I view as quite a bit different than visualization. I also get visions of things going on with other people, but I'm not controlling them. I think that many who say don't visualize are speaking from the sure watch all you want but done make it do stuff pov. I try to go more with feeling or watching personally as that is what I have been taught in the martial and qigong stuff.

 

So to me, this is just physical EMF as opposed to mental EMF... either one can assist such things. Knowing how to dial both means one knows more than one way to control the various aspects.

 

Have you found any differences in results with the different approaches? One better for some stuff, while another better for other stuff? Or do you tend to combine the two always? Interesting anyways .

 

Qi is always flowing... Some described it more like an illusion (ChiD) or like a sensation (Dwai). So many energy practices are really about developing the sensation (or awareness) as the Qi is always moving anyways. The image of this sensation is the visualization. I already made the case for how it is not possible for the brain to separate out various sides to this cube as they are an integral aspect. I think we are just accustomed to compartmentalizing in order to understand something.

 

An illusion??? Though I'd have to take that up with ChiD . The sensation thing makes sense to me.

 

See I always viewed visualization (as it is taught by many systems) as *making* energy do something, that the person directs; much different than passive noticing.

 

That may be possibly what some are doing... I can't answer to it as that is not my position.

 

 

What you say makes sense from your point of view. I have mine.

 

It is always interesting to hear others' perspectives .

 

At the end of the day though, as long as each of our perspectives and methods works for us...

[Aeran]

How come your quotes never have the person's name in them? I think you need proper quote/multiquote transmission from YaMu .

 

I'm not basing this on my own experience (much), as I'm only one person. I'm basing it on the several dozen modern magickians I've worked with and seen work over the years. Then compared with the couple dozen martial artists/qigong people I have worked with or seen work...

 

I would personally put the middle pillar right next to astral myself, same with Bardon's stuff as practiced by most. You may be going about it more in a qigong sense, but I've not seen another do the MP this way yet, nor seen it taught this way.

 

I'll look into that transmission, heh, I usually just copy/paste out of habit.

 

But yeah, with Bardon at least, if they aren't getting an etheric energy from the vital force exercises, then they're doing them wrong. Which apparently happens a fair bit, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, by definition, not the correct energy to be working with in those exercises.

 

"This way the vital power will pass from the etheric principle and your surroundings to yourself." - Initiation Into Hermetics p. 17

 

"The Vital Force is essentially a solar energy in the etheric sphere, and all others ethers or pranas come from this solar prana or vital force. It is not to be confused with the LVX or the Astral Light! ... The vital force being an etheric force is the reason for why it is always treated under the magical schooling of the physical body (as the etheric plane is seen as a subtler form of the Physical realm). ... They vibrate at immensely different rates being almost on two completely different levels of manifestation. ... The Astral Light is not employed for several more steps, and Bardon refers to it simply as 'light' in those exercises." - IIH Commentary by Fra. Veos.

 

 

The Middle Pillar thing is trickier, I'm far from an expert in Golden Dawn methodology, but I did practice the LBRP and Middle Pillar for a good chunk of last year, and in my experience (and to my surprise, as I wasn't expecting it) the Middle Pillar draws on an energy much denser than the astral light used in the Qabbalistic Cross portion of the LBRP, with properties and a subjective experience very similar to, if not identical to, the vital force in Bardon's work and the qi within the qi gong I've practiced.

 

However, I'm happy to admit that it's possible I did something wrong, or that there was some other variable at work, which caused it to operate with a denser energy than it's supposed to. My understanding from what I've read is that it's supposed to be an etheric energy, but I could have misinterpreted that.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Aeran

[BaguaKicksAss]

I'll look into that transmission, heh, I usually just copy/paste out of habit.

 

But yeah, with Bardon at least, if they aren't getting an etheric energy from the vital force exercises, then they're doing them wrong. Which apparently happens a fair bit, but that doesn't change the fact that it is, by definition, not the correct energy to be working with in those exercises.

 

 

 

 

The Middle Pillar thing is trickier, I'm far from an expert in Golden Dawn methodology, but I did practice the LBRP and Middle Pillar for a good chunk of last year, and in my experience (and to my surprise, as I wasn't expecting it) the Middle Pillar draws on an energy much denser than the astral light used in the Qabbalistic Cross portion of the LBRP, with properties and a subjective experience very similar to, if not identical to, the vital force in Bardon's work and the qi within the qi gong I've practiced.

 

However, I'm happy to admit that it's possible I did something wrong, or that there was some other variable at work, which caused it to operate with a denser energy than it's supposed to. My understanding from what I've read is that it's supposed to be an etheric energy, but I could have misinterpreted that.

 

The Cabbalistic cross would be more shen or Atziluth I would think, hmmm. The energy may be strong, but compared with some qigong though?

 

People use the word etheric in diff ways. I see it more like the stuff that works more on the physical plane.

 

Yeah you could have some natural talent, or some really interesting training (not the standard most get).

 

This is prob best via PM....