Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[Aetherous]

Anyone know which Eva Wong Text this comes from?

 

I think it was the one about the immortals Chung and Lu.

[Horus]

and the perfect antidote is to beat it to submission via rote anapanasati

so simple, so profoundly powerful. Thank You Siddhartha!

 

Oh, and you too JB

[Andrei]

Chapter 11 of Understanding the Reality (translated by T.Cleary)

 

The yellow sprouts and white clouds are not hard to seek,

Those who arrive must rely on depth of virtuous practice.

The four forms and five elements all depend on earth,

The three bases and eight trigrams are not apart from elder water.

Refined into spiritual substance, they are inscrutable to men.

Having dissolved all that is negative and harmful, One is invulnerable to ghosts.

I wish to leave the secret among humankind, but I have not yet met a single perceptive person.

 

Liu I ming commentary says:

The ultimate Tao is not complicated, the fire and medicine are not remote; the white clouds are right before your eyes, the yellow sprouts grow in your own home.

 

The Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality (the Teachings of Immortals Chung and Lu) translated by Eva Wong:

 

Introduction: ... The Waterwheel also cannot start until obstacles in its path have been cleared. in my experience, the momentum of the first "golden sparks" "flying up from behind the navel" is the key to opening the path for the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic Circulations. Many people describe the initial experience of "ejecting the golden sparks" as "something shooting up the spine". ...

 

Chapter 10 Lead and Mercury

 

... When this one true water merges with the true vapor of the heart, the process is referred to as 'the dragon and the tiger copulating to become the yellow sprouts". With time the yellow sprouts will be transformed into the great medicine. ...

 

Chapter 11 Extracting and Replenishing

 

... When you gather the medicine, you must replenish the mercury, and when you replenish the mercury, you must extract the lead.

This kind of extracting and replenishing does not occur outside the body. Rather it involves moving something from the lower tan-tien to the upper tan-tien. The process is called 'letting the golden sparks fly from behind the navel'. It is also referred to as 'starting the Waterwheel to move the dragon and the tiger' and 'attaining longevity by returning the generative fluid to the head'. ...

 

Chapter 12 the Waterwheel

 

... The cycle of the five elements follows the principle of reversal silently, the dragon and tiger copulate and the yellow sprouts are born-this is the work of the Small Waterwheel. The golden sparks fly up from behind the navel and return to the Mud Ball cavity, lead is extracted to replenish mercury, and the great medicine is realized-this is the work of Greater Wheel. ...

 

And so on...

Edited September 4, 2014 by Andrei

[Horus]

So does the dantian have a starting point?

IMO, the starting point is conception.

 

And when the soul incarnates, heaven and earth energies mix at LDT as we "enter" the body.

 

Also IMO the LDT has its root at the first (lowest) chamber - which would be much deeper and correlative to the position of Svadisthana (2nd Chakra). But I feel that an individual only finds that out once they reach a certain threshold of LDT energy capacitation.

[Horus]

In many high level systems I've heard it talked about that the lower dantien is just a starting place. Not THE starting place.

 

But that as you develop your entire body will become an energy center.

 

John

Yes, I concur with that.

 

I feel that all dantiens merge into one large center.

 

Infact, when I spiritually projected inside and viewed my LDT - I was prompted to remote view a few other people's LDT.

 

One person had a yin yang symbol with a chinese ancient character imposed (yin/yang grand ultimate)- and another 2 individuals (in their 80's) who are of a western magic system - had their LDT merged into one massive "dantien" which existed in the entire "space" where all three dantiens were - but much larger - like Dr Who's Tardis.

[Horus]

If Tan Tien is a Quantum Field, then it can be Particle or Wave

Filling the LDT Surfing the LDT

[Horus]

In all of my traditions we strive not to go into trance and so I do not do trance meditation.

Sometimes - though rarely I will go into trance for work on that level but it is rare.

I feel that is because your intent is to cultivate a crystal clear awareness, as opposed to a "trance-like" wavering state - half-way between sleep and awake?

 

I think that is an interesting point to open up.

 

My definition of a "trance state" is somewhat different.

 

In Time Line Therapy (call it pyschodynamic therapy if you like) I was taught that all states of consciousness are states of trance - just that the nature of the trance state changes. A normal waking state of trance, a deep state of trance, a very deep state of trance etc..

 

IMO the state of trance between sleep and awake can have several qualities, the most potent of which is a crystal clear awareness state - rather than that wafty sleepy state that has you dipping in and out of clear awareness.

 

Is that why you've "avoided trance states", Spotless - because of that sleepiness state?

 

IMO the wafty deep state is still deep but consciousness is not grounded - the Gong has not been achieved.

 

The most cultivative power comes from crystal clear awareness in complete stillness.

[opendao]

... The cycle of the five elements follows the principle of reversal silently, the dragon and tiger copulate and the yellow sprouts are born-this is the work of the Small Waterwheel. The golden sparks fly up from behind the navel and return to the Mud Ball cavity, lead is extracted to replenish mercury, and the great medicine is realized-this is the work of Greater Wheel. ...

 

"The yellow sprouts and white clouds are not hard to seek", just create a small waterwheel first, for that you need to "copulate dragon and tiger". Simple, everybody can easily do that as Horus did and become a Fairy Immortal from Vega star. So naive...

 

Joeblast said about "limited view": I'd rather would intentionally limit myself then go so crazy wide, and be so arrogant about basic things However everybody has a choice. Let's just wait for results. Time goes by even for enlightened born new-age gurus.

 

We see the same long revelations made by various ignoramus outside of the tradition for a hundred years at least, and all such people fade up, loose their insights, and become just "old grey haired farts". Obviously something important is missed, but virtually enlightened taoists don't mention it and don't care.

 

"I wish to leave the secret among humankind, but I have not yet met a single perceptive person." Nothing has changed since that, alas. But Zhang Boduan's school still teach Neidan and this alone fact is a counter balance for all these one-day self made "cultivators".

 

Btw, Zhang Boduan is an author of "lay people has no Dan Tien" phrase, but who cares, right? It's much easier to discuss illusions, experiences and opinions about "something that looks like Dan Tien":

 

- Why do you think it's Dan Tien?

- It's below and warm and rumble when I think about it.

[Spotless]

I feel that is because your intent is to cultivate a crystal clear awareness, as opposed to a "trance-like" wavering state - half-way between sleep and awake?

 

I think that is an interesting point to open up.

 

My definition of a "trance state" is somewhat different.

 

In Time Line Therapy (call it pyschodynamic therapy if you like) I was taught that all states of consciousness are states of trance - just that the nature of the trance state changes. A normal waking state of trance, a deep state of trance, a very deep state of trance etc..

 

IMO the state of trance between sleep and awake can have several qualities, the most potent of which is a crystal clear awareness state - rather than that wafty sleepy state that has you dipping in and out of clear awareness.

 

Is that why you've "avoided trance states", Spotless - because of that sleepiness state?

 

IMO the wafty deep state is still deep but consciousness is not grounded - the Gong has not been achieved.

 

The most cultivative power comes from crystal clear awareness in complete stillness.

I don't want to start a whole trance debate - there are old posts where that has been done and they can be easily looked up.

I am adept in trance states and so they are by no means foreign to me.

 

Trance states are particularly useful in allowing physical interaction with beings without bodies, such as for transmedium work and the like.

 

You caught the texture of trance when you mentioned "ungrounded". The vibration is typically much higher in trance for the physical and it makes every thing "easier" and this is the doing and undoing of it.

 

The practice of trance is an easy way to bring a number of things into ones awareness but also the easiest way to really lose oneself in the practice. It is an addictive shortcut that is a leading cause of madness and it leaves the practitioner short on abilities that they truly own while having the impression that they do.

 

You can learn to achieve pretty much all of the most desirable abilities in a none trance state and you will have much greater command over them together with a much more stable awareness within and without.

 

If on the other hand you wish to move in and out of the body, then trance states are immensely helpful.

If you move your vibration up to beyond around 30,000 cycles or more, moving out becomes pretty easy and if you can go higher than that comfortably then it gets very easy. (It is also very easy for other things to move in and out).

 

Women can go to a higher physical vibration much easier than men as their bodies are naturally vibrating higher - their bodies are hard wired to share with another being and so they naturally physically vibrate higher and it is also why many abilities come to them more naturally.

 

 

 

Of course it is NOT necessary to increase the physical vibrations to high levels in order to utilize trance states, but overall raising the vibration is easy, addictive and often "fatal" to one who was following the path as it can become a very long detour and you don't really come out the other side of it having learned much more than "that was a waste of time".

 

This is precisely why we get so many "nut jobs" in practice. A great deal of practice creates "nut jobs" from this incorporation of trance throughout their practice. It also makes writing books prematurely almost a requirement because trance is like having a wild hair up your ass - it runs you - you do not run it.

 

Several of our "experts here" really have been able to reach very "high" states and yet they constantly need to quote things in order to corroborate what they "know" because they don't really know much of anything other than what they have seen and what has "happened" in trance.

 

A whole pile of practice that incorporates or teaches trance is somewhat like what religion is to the masses but for a slightly smaller audience. It is easy, requires next to no work, makes the audience very highly suggestible and will occupy them for a lifetime (or ten or twenty).

 

It is interesting that in many traditions you find trance revered and in quite a few you find it definitely cautioned against though not entirely eliminated. In the long run the ones cautioning against are much quicker if you are not after collecting badges but more after enlightenment.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Spotless

[寒月 Hanyue]

all such people,...... become just "old grey haired farts". Obviously something important is missed,

 

You mean like this guy?

 

I thought Liao Kong was one of the main transmitters of Wu-Liu pai in the early 20th C?

 

Genuinely curious...

[joeblast]

yadda yadda

if you wish to assert something concrete, go ahead. you look at a limited context of a particular conversation and draw all sorts of conclusions as to the totality of the practitioners involved, and smugly think that yours is the only perspective that concerns itself with xing and ming?

 

if you want to posit yourself as having useful information or experience, back it up by saying something wise and useful, instead of acting like you know this secret handshake that nobody else has a clue about

[Andrei]

 

Btw, Zhang Boduan is an author of "lay people has no Dan Tien" phrase, but who cares, right? It's much easier to discuss illusions, experiences and opinions about "something that looks like Dan Tien":

 

 

 

Lay people means people who have family and responsibility, a wife, kids and have sex.

Non-lay people are monks. Monk means you don't have anything, any kind of social relationship, except the one established by the monastery rules.

Zhang Bo Duan was a monk.

As far as I remeber you have a wife and a kid, according to the definition you are a "lay people".

 

[opendao]

Lay people means people who have family and responsibility, a wife, kids and have sex. Non-lay people are monks. Monk means you don't have anything, any kind of social relationship, except the one established by the monastery rules. Zhang Bo Duan was a monk. As far as I remeber you have a wife and a kid, according to the definition you are a "lay people".

 

Zhang Boduan wasn't a monk, so...

 

I thought Liao Kong was one of the main transmitters of Wu-Liu pai in the early 20th C?

 

No, he wasn't. Check your sources.

[寒月 Hanyue]

No, he wasn't. Check your sources.

 

Interesting. I know three different lines of practice that trace back to him, though they credit him as Longmen not "Wu-Liu".

 

What about his 'brother', who features in Liu Huayang's text asking questions? Where does he fit in?

 

Thanks in advance,

[opendao]

if you wish to assert something concrete, go ahead. you look at a limited context of a particular conversation and draw all sorts of conclusions as to the totality of the practitioners involved, and smugly think that yours is the only perspective that concerns itself with xing and ming?

 

I've read and discussed Xing/Ming with various people here, where I can find your thoughts about it?

 

About LDT I see no sense to repeat. You believe that DT has "density, color" etc, and all people have it. I cannot support it, because practically it's different in Neidan, and texts are against such view. But for modern Qigong it's ok, and your position is not unique, and I understand how practically you came to your ideas... But you don't know the other side, so how to discuss it with you? It needs at least some foundation in theory, and so far I don't see it... All these themes like Xing/Ming, Post/Pre Heaven, Yuan Qi and senses, Qigong vs Neidan were already discussed, and those who want can do his or her own conclusions.

 

Usually when people have questions, they ask concrete questions

 

Interesting. I know three different lines of practice that trace back to him, though they credit him as Longmen not "Wu-Liu".

 

What about his 'brother', who features in Liu Huayang's text asking questions? Where does he fit in?

 

Inside Wu-Liu Pai there are school records, so as far as I know this person was accepted, but then left the school very quickly and started to learn in another school. So in Wu-Liu Pai they are not recognized as students, and this lineage has considerable differences in theory and practice. Maybe it's better to ask Alchemist in Wu-Liu thread, probably he can answer with more details.

[joeblast]

I've read and I'm sorry, you dont fit in to my terminology box, so I'll continue to ignore any discrepancies in terminology and just place all of my assumptions and call them your point of view

skimming might qualify for some,

and I probably havent used the terminology you want to see, ergo I'm wrong, so...not much point in continuing discussion with you on this. you dont see this situation as anything but everyone else needs to conform to the view you have come to accept , lest they be left out in the cold and continue to be wrong, there is no other consideration.

 

I have no use for such discussions.

Edited September 4, 2014 by joeblast

[寒月 Hanyue]

Inside Wu-Liu Pai there are school records, so as far as I know this person was accepted, but then left the school very quickly and started to learn in another school. So in Wu-Liu Pai they are not recognized as students, and this lineage has considerable differences in theory and practice. Maybe it's better to ask Alchemist in Wu-Liu thread, probably he can answer with more details.

 

Thanks, I know your school doesn't like giving out lineage info, I've asked before. So I appreciate the information.

 

I have no idea if they considered themselves "Wu-Liu", since all the lines coming from them state them as Longmen pai and give that lineage/generation. However, more often than not (in the public records) they get equated with Wu-Liu pai and so it is easy to conflate the two.

 

Best,

[opendao]

skimming might qualify for some,

and I probably havent used the terminology you want to see, ergo I'm wrong, so...not much point in continuing discussion with you.

 

no, the real issue is that you use the terminology of Neidan, but understand it very differently. Result of skimming? You know better.

 

Again, about Xing/Ming, where I can read your thoughts? You can name it "tiger and dragon", or "rabbit and eagle", or "body and mind", I don't care, but what is a real practical meaning? LDT is very connected to Ming, so if you say what you say about LDT, then how do you know what Ming is? It's impossible...

 

So yes, it's better to stop arguing with me about Neidan, without having no other arguments then Qigong background you obviously have, and blindly trying to equalize absolutely different methods with absolutely opposite goals.

[damdao]

The first time I read about not having dantian was from a Longmen guy. I think that because of that they say “lower field” and not lower elixir field. Besides, I think it is fair to conclude that if one has no dan, then cannot have dantian. Accumulating qi in some region could help to martial qigong but could be damaging too. In fact, I think that qi is like oxygen either gives life or death. The difference between xiantian and houtian is pivotal (using a Chinese wording) and be clear about this in relation to sanbao is basic (although it is hard too) .
From these guys too, I read that the microcosmic orbit that you speak is not the real MCO. After that I realized that even some serious qigong teachers don’t call that exercise MCO but rendu circulation. Besides, it is pretty clear that it would be difficult for the qi ascending in the surface du channel to get inside the brain and to produce the regeneration of hair and teeth.
So, I cannot see why it is so difficult to accept that some lineages could have different views than the mainstream.

[Ya Mu]

The first time I read about not having dantian was from a Longmen guy. I think that because of that they say “lower field” and not lower elixir field. Besides, I think it is fair to conclude that if one has no dan, then cannot have dantian. Accumulating qi in some region could help to martial qigong but could be damaging too. In fact, I think that qi is like oxygen either gives life or death. The difference between xiantian and houtian is pivotal (using a Chinese wording) and be clear about this in relation to sanbao is basic (although it is hard too) .

From these guys too, I read that the microcosmic orbit that you speak is not the real MCO. After that I realized that even some serious qigong teachers don’t call that exercise MCO but rendu circulation. Besides, it is pretty clear that it would be difficult for the qi ascending in the surface du channel to get inside the brain and to produce the regeneration of hair and teeth.

So, I cannot see why it is so difficult to accept that some lineages could have different views than the mainstream.

I agree that a Dan Tian has to be created; we teach this as fact within our system and other neigong systems I have been exposed to do as well. If it is already there then why do anything.

 

I think the confusion comes from the fact that yes, everyone has an energy center at that location or they would be dead. And yes, this energy center field varies from person to person. But the cultivation and usually initiation is required to have elixir field, which is why the neidan texts say what they say.

 

The thing is, there are not too many absolutes in that everyone is different and it is my understanding that it depends on cultivations in previous lifetimes as well as what each individual chose to bring here for this experience. I have seen "naturals" who can create this fairly quickly as well as others who take a very long time. I do know that systems with initiation create this quicker than one just going it on their own. Also sometimes drastic experiences such as getting struck by lightning can drastically change....everything.

But good lord NO I certainly don't wish to argue this viewpoint.

[Spotless]

Ya Mu says:

"I agree that a Dan Tian has to be created; we teach this as fact within our system and other neigong systems I have been exposed to do as well. If it is already there then why do anything.

 

I think the confusion comes from the fact that yes, everyone has an energy center at that location or they would be dead. And yes, this energy center field varies from person to person. But the cultivation and usually initiation is required to have elixir field, which is why the neidan texts say what they say.

 

The thing is, there are not too many absolutes in that everyone is different and it is my understanding that it depends on cultivations in previous lifetimes as well as what each individual chose to bring here for this experience. I have seen "naturals" who can create this fairly quickly as well as others who take a very long time. I do know that systems with initiation create this quicker than one just going it on their own. Also sometimes drastic experiences such as getting struck by lightning can drastically change....everything.

But good lord NO I certainly don't wish to argue this viewpoint."

 

 

It looks like it can be argued either way well and I respect Ya Mu's opinion.

 

Sometimes an experiential view point can be correctly perceived and yet certainly not be the norm.

 

I will make a point of looking very closely into this - perhaps I will need to find some recently thawed and alive Cro-magnon.

 

In my life I have never met a teacher that sees this stuff clearly - though I have worked with 2 that see a great deal of this stuff well.

I would bet that many masters might all come to the conclusion that it does not exist prior and they could all be wrong and yet be quite enlightened if not "fully enlightened" (which I do not think is an actual completed state but a never ending one).

 

Anyway - suffice it to say - it certainly can appear to have pre-existed but that may not be the case.

 

Edit:

Regarding the part of the quote "if it is already there then why do anything"

I don't actually understand this viewpoint and would really like more on this point from Ya Mu if you please

 

Mine was already there and yet my Qi gong practice has been extremely beneficial and useful.

In fact all of the practice that I have done over the years has served to increase and exercise capacities that were latent and the capacities that need certain fuels/vibrations to grow or sprout.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Spotless

[Horus]

If there were not many many ways back to Tao, then there would not be so many individuations.

 

Whether you, as an individual, are drawn to any given lineage or drawn to go it alone - the fact still remains that we are all one.

 

This world we share is challenged in every direction by opposing forces that represent separation from wholeness.

 

Many lineages have made a point of recording that their adepts either failed or had a very hard time cultivating true results in times of dire conflict. The grid system and the energies in nature absorb much of our misgivings. In fighting, senseless arguing, disagreements, battles, bloodshed, wars - all create the opposite of what it is that most of us a seeking to cultivate - original nature.

 

I see many practitioners claiming to be very passionate bout their lineage over others naivety. While I commend such steadfast commitment to embrace truth and shun incorrect perception, there is compassion missing.

 

Only when we accept all differences, and yield to what is can we fully embrace Tao.

 

Only when you apply wisdom within and without will true Virtue be with you.

 

How can we merge with all of it unless we embrace it all as home?

 

How can people in conflict over religious beliefs ever come together in peace if people from differing sects in the same philosophy can't even accept one another with love?

 

How can you talk with and walk away with disdain and arrogance from your brothers and sisters and still call yourself one of the Way?

 

Love over Hate, Kindness over Anger, Gentleness over Fear...

 

Where there is power there will always be those that seek to control it.

 

These things of which we speak are naturally occurring phenomena. Even the most masterful adept knows that cultivation is something you allow to occur by allowing yourself to yield to nature, creating the right conditions for it to occur. The Tao creates all of it, we are merely cooperating until we realise we are all of it.

 

Find peace upon your path no matter where it takes you, for a wise one would prefer a single moment of integrity over an immortal eternity out of integrity.

[Ya Mu]

Ya Mu says:

"I agree that a Dan Tian has to be created; we teach this as fact within our system and other neigong systems I have been exposed to do as well. If it is already there then why do anything.

 

I think the confusion comes from the fact that yes, everyone has an energy center at that location or they would be dead. And yes, this energy center field varies from person to person. But the cultivation and usually initiation is required to have elixir field, which is why the neidan texts say what they say.

 

The thing is, there are not too many absolutes in that everyone is different and it is my understanding that it depends on cultivations in previous lifetimes as well as what each individual chose to bring here for this experience. I have seen "naturals" who can create this fairly quickly as well as others who take a very long time. I do know that systems with initiation create this quicker than one just going it on their own. Also sometimes drastic experiences such as getting struck by lightning can drastically change....everything.

But good lord NO I certainly don't wish to argue this viewpoint."

 

 

It looks like it can be argued either way well and I respect Ya Mu's opinion.

 

Sometimes an experiential view point can be correctly perceived and yet certainly not be the norm.

 

I will make a point of looking very closely into this - perhaps I will need to find some recently thawed and alive Cro-magnon.

 

In my life I have never met a teacher that sees this stuff clearly - though I have worked with 2 that see a great deal of this stuff well.

I would bet that many masters might all come to the conclusion that it does not exist prior and they could all be wrong and yet be quite enlightened if not "fully enlightened" (which I do not think is an actual completed state but a never ending one).

 

Anyway - suffice it to say - it certainly can appear to have pre-existed but that may not be the case.

 

Edit:

Regarding the part of the quote "if it is already there then why do anything"

I don't actually understand this viewpoint and would really like more on this point from Ya Mu if you please

 

Mine was already there and yet my Qi gong practice has been extremely beneficial and useful.

In fact all of the practice that I have done over the years has served to increase and exercise capacities that were latent and the capacities that need certain fuels/vibrations to grow or sprout.

"Mine was already there and yet my Qi gong practice has been extremely beneficial and useful.

In fact all of the practice that I have done over the years has served to increase and exercise capacities that were latent and the capacities that need certain fuels/vibrations to grow or sprout. "

Exactly my point. You think "it was already there" yet you have noticed the extreme difference after cultivation. So my point is that yes, an energy center IS already there and cultivation forms the field of elixir at said energy center.

 

"Regarding the part of the quote "if it is already there then why do anything"

I don't actually understand this viewpoint and would really like more on this point from Ya Mu if you please :)"

Didn't really have much of a point except many say it is already there and all is already done and if this is so why bother with anything. Those that do bother find it isn't already "done".

Edited September 5, 2014 by Ya Mu

[joeblast]

It's impossible...

there's a forum search. dont worry, you'll not find my verbiage to your liking, you'd have to infer too much or make too many connections to realize it. I'd say skip it and save your time, since your mind is already made up anyway.

[Spotless]

"Mine was already there and yet my Qi gong practice has been extremely beneficial and useful.

In fact all of the practice that I have done over the years has served to increase and exercise capacities that were latent and the capacities that need certain fuels/vibrations to grow or sprout. "

Exactly my point. You think "it was already there" yet you have noticed the extreme difference after cultivation. So my point is that yes, an energy center IS already there and cultivation forms the field of elixir at said energy center.

 

"Regarding the part of the quote "if it is already there then why do anything"

I don't actually understand this viewpoint and would really like more on this point from Ya Mu if you please :)"

Didn't really have much of a point except many say it is already there and all is already done and if this is so why bother with anything. Those that do bother find it isn't already "done".

Thank you for the clarification of your views.

 

I did check with my Qi Gong master and his tradition is that it exists at birth. He can also "see".

(6th Generation Shaolin Temple Grand Master Monk Qi Gong and Kung Fu)

 

Whether it does or does not, does not appear to matter much - whether developing it from scratch or enlivening a pre-existing LDT, practice makes a world of difference for all the centers of the body.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Spotless