Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[voidisyinyang]

Too bad u can't name him. Then we'd know what ur talking about. But i respect ur need for secrets.

[Meroe]

Too bad u can't name him. Then we'd know what ur talking about. But i respect ur need for secrets.

 

Considering the context clues, id say its mantak chia. as far as my experiences have shown, pretty much every daoist from china ive been acquainted with him say that he gives diluted and improper methods. also, there are quite a few complaints about people being damaged by his practices.

 

to all those who practice him, dont flame me. im just contributing to the topic.

[Meroe]

Sorry for the late message, only read this tread now. I must say, that Opendao is the only one on here who seems to have things quite close to my own beliefs. He speaks only the truth as he knows it, and is met with hostility. 

 

The dantian has to be created/developed/activated, and even doing this is not exactly easy, given how many people believe they have dantians, but in fact have nothing other than a thoughtform/ghost dantian/something other than a real dantian. There is a whole world of things written in books that are almost right, and not actually that far off the truth, then their are other things that are the exact opposite of the truth as I have come to see it.

 

The problem I encounter when I try to help is the same as Opendao. We say things that are so different to the common belief that people just immediately dismiss it as nonsense. So I will make a few statements, without dismissing what other believe, but hoping it will make some people at least question whether what they believe is truly that accurate.

 

The energy we absorb from nature is called qi. This qi is not the same as the qi referred to when speaking of Jing refined into qi. I prefer to call what we absorb from nature as energy.

 

This energy can be felt, and can be stored and can do many things, but cannot be felt by everyone. Many masters say they are projecting qi, and using qi, but it cannot be felt by everyone, and then come up with excuses as to why these few people were resistant or watever the situation may be. They don't have qi, they have abundant energy. This energy can activate chakras and give many sensations inside the body, and relevant chakras, but it's not qi. 

 

After you have activated/developed the dantian, which takes anything from a few months to many years, you can start developing Jing into qi. This qi that you get after succesfully refining jing into qi can be felt by anyone. It is extremely powerful and can interact in physical ways with objects. Such as lighting something on fire, or burning a hole in something with qi. Many people call this "powers" and counterproductive to reaching enlightenment. I just see them as being able to use qi, instead of using energy that cannot interact in these ways with physical objects and calling it qi.

 

This qi, this refined jing, feels very much electrical aswel. But people dismiss this again, because neither they, nor their Master/teacher has this electric qi. So obviously this electric qi is gained through some secret/mysterious methods.

 

The truth is, and believing me, or not believing me makes no difference to it being the truth. When you develop the dantian, and refine Jing into qi, the qi you end up with is electrical, and can be felt by anyone, regardless of their belief in it. 

 

Now i humbly request, instead of arguing with me outright, think about my statement for a minute. Consider what if what I am saying is correct. And having a dantian and having refined jing into qi, gives you electric qi, something that can be felt very clearly and very strongly by anyone, regardless of their belief, what that means. 

 

I very much am aware it means that most systems and most traditions taught worldwide, do not have the foundation methods correct. They are not developing true dantians and not refining Jing into qi. But this now raises another question, if you do not have a dantian, have no qi, then how do you end up with shen?? There is no qi to refine into shen, therefore, how can you work with shen.

 

I am not trying to argue with anyone, or call anyone wrong, there are so many things that I do not yet understand. I am merely giving you my personal experience with activating the dantian and refining jing into qi, and what this qi feels like. The main topic is about filling the dantian afterall. 

 

I will leave you with this short story from my past. 

 

I met a few people whilst visiting a master in china, they had been training with a pretty well known "daoist" teacher in the west. I won't mention this teachers name out of respect, but he has written a fair few books, and is regarded quite highly by a few here on toabums. These people, were his "indoor" students of more than 2 years, and had told me many grand stories of their training, how they had developed their dantians, stored qi, rotated their dantians, activated kundalini as a byproduct and so forth.

 

Meeting this master in china, expecting that their dantians were fairly well developed, they were both told that they had no dantians. There was nothing, and because there was nothing, they had not refined Jing into qi, and had no qi either. They had ghost dantians, which feel physical, and can be moved and can produce sensations, but cannot refine Jing or store qi. Funny enough, they were told that this ghost dantian not only cannot convert Jing into Qi, but also that it actually burns real Jing, without producing qi. In essence draining their bodies of Jing, without the benefit that comes with qi. They were on a daily basis making themselves ill. And at the point of meeting this master in china, had pretty bad health. 

 

They had a hard time accepting this. "Surely he is wrong, we felt our dantians, we could more our dantians": they proclaimed. The truth is a hard pill to swallow, but sometimes we must fall so we can get back up and do better. 

 

I have over the years had to shift my belief drastically due to realizing a few truths. Things we in the west believe so blindly, that just isn't all that correct.

 

I have met many western teachers and spoken to a few chinese ones aswel. I have only ever met one teacher whom I believe knows the true methods, without having lost part of the foundation on how to develop and "fill the dantian" by refining Jing into Qi. The others claimed this electric qi is a lower accomplishment, and real cultivators don't waste their time with this. I thought, but if you refine jing into qi, from experiece, I know this qi is electrical. So this chinese teachers telling me that it's a lower accomplishment, something that he doesn't waste his time with, means he doesn't actually refine jing into qi. He truly believes what he teaches is of value and he is on his way to enlightenment, and tells me these things because he really does believe them. It's not his fault that his teacher taught him this, and this is all he knows, but it doesn't make it the truth. It doesn't make him a bad person, or infer he is intentionally trying to give me scewed information. Just that what he truly believes, and teaches, is missing valuable bits on information. 

 

This same chinese teacher, then writes books, putting his methods inside of them, and is read by members from this forum. They in turn quote this book, and the information from it. It doesn't make the information right. 

 

So here I have shared my experience, and did so with love, no ill intent. I am sharing my experience and what I have come to conclude from this experience and how it relates to the dantian and qi.

 

having trained with longmen, I agree with all you have said. even Wang Liping himself says that the xia dantien needs to be "carved" out, not that exact word but something to that effect.

 

I have also encountered opposition for speaking from a different vantage point. I had said that the Original art of Taijiquan passed down in the initatory lineages actually contain many mudras that are used on specific points in the body, and visualizations.... including the trigram's correspondences in the body and environment.... as calculated for specific effects using the I ching. there are also animal visualizations.... I have named only a few of the peculiarities of these forms. This, I have been taught, did not get passed on by the family lineages, but in fact predates them, and was created by San Feng himself.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Meroe

[gendao]

Considering the context clues, id say its mantak chia. as far as my experiences have shown, pretty much every daoist from china ive been acquainted with him say that he gives diluted and improper methods. also, there are quite a few complaints about people being damaged by his practices.

Doubtful. This forum was founded by disillusioned "ex-pats" from his Healing Tao, so I wouldn't say he is regarded quite highly by anyone here...

 

As far as "real" qi feeling like electricity, I don't know? It is true that you can talk to 3 Daoist peers in China, and you will get 3 different opinions on Daoist training methods, though...

Edited September 1, 2015 by gendao

[thelerner]

Doubtful. This forum was founded by disillusioned "ex-pats" from his Healing Tao, so I wouldn't say he is regarded quite highly by anyone here...

 

As far as "real" qi feeling like electricity, I don't know? It is true that you can talk to 3 Daoist peers in China, and you will get 3 different opinions on Daoist training methods, though...

and all 3 will say, I healed the other guys students after they had problems..!

[Aeran]

 

As far as "real" qi feeling like electricity, I don't know? It is true that you can talk to 3 Daoist peers in China, and you will get 3 different opinions on Daoist training methods, though...

 

Exactly. And why must there be one "real" qi? Even individual systems almost all seem to have different varieties of qi which they work with (yin qi, yang qi, qi for the different elements, "true" qi, pre-heaven qi, post-heaven qi, etc etc etc), not to mention other energies (jing, shen, environmental energies, energies specific to entities or systems)... and that's just in Daoism, once you expand out to Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufism, Hermeticism, etc. you're getting into hundreds or thousands of different labels for classifications of subtle energies.

 

The whole thing seems like semantics to me. What matters is that an energy achieves the effect it's supposed to and that the descriptions within a system are internally consistent. Of course if it doesn't or they aren't, that's another matter, but claiming only one energy is the "real" qi and that any energy which doesn't share it's exact properties is harmful seems silly at least and dogmatic at worst.

 

IMO we, as a society, just don't have to tools to objectively quantify and compare these energies yet (otherwise they'd be studied in universities as much as they would in temples and mountain caves and - these days - seminars and internet forums) so there's no point in trying to apply the terminology from one system/lineage to a separate one. Better to just judge each on it's individual merits.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Aeran

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Aeran]

I am aware of all the different types of energies that there are. I merely stated that when refining Jing into Qi, the end product is powerful, can be felt by anyone, and has an electric feel to it. If you think you have Activated your Dantian, and think you have refined Jing into Qi, but the Qi doesn't have the aforementioned qualities, that you probably didn't refine Jing into Qi.

 

According to whom? There are hundreds, if not thousands, of Daoist lineages/temples/schools/masters, all using these terms. Why does one particular individual have claim to the word "Qi" to refer to a specific energy produced by their practices? Why is your definition of Qi correct and nobody else's?

 

Because you met someone who could do some pretty cool things and he said that that definition was the only true one? Well there are plenty of people out there who can do cool things who would give a different definition. What makes one right and another wrong? None of them have to right to lay exclusive claim to such a broad and historical term as "Qi."

 

 

This was a thread about filling the dantian, and we fill the dantian by refining Jing into Qi. Bringing all the other energies that people like to talk about has no real relevance as an argument. We don't use true qi to activate kundalini or to work with the chakras, yet many people experience their navel and heart chakras and call them dantians. 

 

Again, according to some lineages. Others say that the dantien is filled in ways that don't involve the direct conversion of Jing. Others say that there are many different kinds of Qi. What makes one lineage correct in their use of the terminology and one incorrect?

 

Saying that there are hundreds of different energies that can accomplish the same goals just doesn't make sense to me. Its like saying making an omelet you can use a wide variety of products, and still call the outcome a omelet. You use eggs, and the end result is an omelet. Using anything other that an egg, does not give you an omelet, and using something else and trying to call the end product an omelet is also wrong, don't you think. 

 

I think that's a flawed analogy because you're vastly oversimplifying the concept. There are, as I have said, hundreds/thousands of schools of Daoist meditation. All of them (I would guess) use the word Qi to refer to something - but this something is not necessarily the same from one school to the next.

 

There is no universal consensus among Daoists that an energy must possess the properties you ascribe to it to be called Qi, this is just the specific terminology used by your specific teacher. Which is fine, but you can't take the terminology from one lineage and apply it to others, it doesn't work.

 

 

Why do people always try to make meditation so complicated. It's very systematic in my opinion. First, you develop/activate your dantian, when you have a dantian, you have the facility to refine Jing into Qi. This qi is then stored in the dantian, and used as your body requires. Refining more qi than what your body uses is how you fill it up. 

 

Then what are all the Llama's and Yogi's and Tantrika's and Sufi's and Kabbalists and Hesychasts and Magicians and etc etc. doing when they meditate? Because for most of them it's not converting Jing to produce an electric-like Qi to fill the Dantien, so either meditation is a lot more complicated than your definition, or all of these traditions going back centuries/millennia have just been spinning their wheels and deluding themselves while the One True Lineage in China has been converting jing into electric-feeling Qi.

 

 

Qi has certain qualities, I merely said people like to call energy qi, and this is not right. Making excuses as to why your qi doesn't feel the same, doesn't all of a sudden make what you work with qi. It's very hard to make my point without sounding alittle mean. I dont mean to be mean about it, but don't really see another way to state it. 

 

Qi is Qi, energy is not qi. Chakras are chakras, they are not dantians. Calling something by the wrong name doesn't magically turn it into that object. 

 

I did however not say other energies are harmful, just that calling energy qi doesn't make it the qi that is referred to when talking about Jing Refined into Qi.

 

I'm not debating with you because I'm offended .Personally, All I care about is that my practices do what they're supposed to do As long as that continues to be the case, then as far as I'm concerned all that matters is that the names for the energies involved remain internally consistent - beyond that it's semantics.

 

What does bother me is your dogmatism - you met one man and decided that because the Qi he produced had certain properties, nobody else had the right to use the word unless the Qi involved in their practice also possessed those properties.

 

Saying "Qi" is a bit like saying "gas." Yes, all forms of gas share certain qualities, but they also vary wildly depending on their molecular composition, density, etc. There is no one true Qi, speaking in purely linguistic terms - I don't speak Chinese, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but when used in the context of meditation, it's a word which refers to any vital energy associated with the breath. Anything which fits that definition can be called Qi.

 

Now in the specific tradition you mention perhaps the internal alchemy involved produces a variety of Qi which possesses certain properties beyond this (in this case, giving a powerful electric sensation when projected), but just because this person claims that this is the only energy which can be called Qi does not make it so.

 

Unlike Western science, there is no dictionary in the canon of meditative practices which provides exact terminology, exact definitions for each precise phenomenon. therefore they have to be accepted contextually. Maybe this will change one day, but that day isn't today.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Aeran

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Aeran]

Likewise I don't think anything will be achieved by an extended debate, just wanted to put a different perspective on the matter out there.

[Taoist Texts]

So. I must say, that Opendao is the only one on here who seems to have things quite close to my own beliefs. He speaks only the truth

It takes one to know one

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

Now, that makes it better for all of us who want to sit at home and have the true teachings just given to us. We can sit on our couch, and just read books and make progress from the exercises in these books. Why bother to get a plane and go meet a true master, we can learn from books, and know everything there is to know. More than this, we can sit and argue with those who have bothered to get off their bum and go find a true teacher.

 

So Rudolf I assume you got on a plane and learned from a true teacher who zaps people with electrical qi from his dantian. Can you do that too now?

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Taoist Texts]

Can I do it by myself. The short answer is no.

then what use is the truthiness of your teacher?

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Taoist Texts]

 

These things take time to learn how to do. You don't meditate today, and then tomorrow have a Dantian that is full of qi. Even when you have a dantian full of qi, learning to use it and control it takes time.

 

Tamerlane was looking for someone to teach his donkey to talk.

Nobody wanted the job.

Finally Hodja Nasreddin took the position and promised to teach the donkey to talk in 10 years time.

- Are you crazy? his friends asked him.

- Not really, Hodja answered, the money is good the job is not hard and in 10 years a lot might happen: I might die, or Tamerlane might die or surely enough this old donkey might die.

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[Chang]

then what use is the truthiness of your teacher?

 

The Teacher must know more than the student on the given subject or why should he go to learn from him?

 

The fact that at this stage the student cannot manifest the abilities of the teacher does not mean that he will not be taught to do so.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

I still don't quite get the point you are trying to make. 

the point is that you and your teacher got nothing except your word on it. there is no such thing as electrical dantian, its a gimmick to string the gullible ones on.

[Taoist Texts]

The Teacher must know more than the student on the given subject or why should he go to learn from him?

 

Provided there is that subject.

 

The fact that at this stage the student cannot manifest the abilities of the teacher does not mean that he will not be taught to do so.

of course it does. Do you want me to spell out the logic for you?

[Chang]

Provided there is that subject.

 

of course it does. Do you want me to spell out the logic for you?

 

I do not believe that there is really any need for you to spell out anything for me.

 

The fact that you do not believe in a given phenomena is neither here nor there.

[Taoist Texts]

I do not believe that there is really any need for you to spell out anything for me.

is that so?))

The fact that you do not believe in a given phenomena is neither here nor there.

Is the fact that this phenomenon is not proven, but rather is made up out of whole cloth  here or there?