Filling up the lower Dan Tien- How and Why

[opendao]

Do you guys really think that any "energy center" in the lower part of the body is the Lower Dan Tien?

 

The location is important, but except that there are a lot of other things Qigong people don't even usually take into consideration.

 

The main obstacle is that they have no Yuan Qi experience (it's not something somebody can do without knowing exactly how to do it), so they don't realize there is something beyond the usual "energy body" they work with in Qigong, Yoga or many other similar methods. Sort of "the world is flat" model... It's not bad, but limited and have no relation to Neidan, which works primary with Yuan Qi.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you for the clarification of your views.

 

I did check with my Qi Gong master and his tradition is that it exists at birth. He can also "see".

(6th Generation Shaolin Temple Grand Master Qi Gong and Kung Fu)

 

Whether is does or does not does not appear to matter much - whether developing it from scratch or enlivening a pre-existing LDT, practice makes a world of difference for all the centers of the body.

 

The Shaolin and Daoist systems often differ considerably, both in model and in method. Doesn't mean either aren't effective in their respective aims etc.

 

On a side, but related note, Himalayan Yogic methods (the ones I've been exposed to) often develop the dantian in an eerily similar way to the Daoist methods, and yet they conceptualise no such thing. Go figure

 

Best,

[opendao]

On a side, but related note, Himalayan Yogic methods (the ones I've been exposed to) often develop the dantian in an eerily similar way to the Daoist methods, and yet they conceptualise no such thing. Go figure

 

That's fine. In many Neidan texts this stage is not described at all :-) And from teaching perspective I agree that it's better not to define anything, except some abstract and high level things (goals etc). But Daoist books were written not to teach, the purpose was to explain the methodology for those who are searching, wake up people who are similarly minded and give them a clear direction how to find practices.

 

Can you shortly say what you mean here as "Daoist methods"?

[寒月 Hanyue]

That's fine. In many Neidan texts this stage is not described at all :-) And from teaching perspective I agree that it's better not to define anything, except some abstract and high level things (goals etc). But Daoist books were written not to teach, the purpose was to explain the methodology for those who are searching, wake up people who are similarly minded and give them a clear direction how to find practices.

 

My post wasn't in relation to anything you've written. In all fairness I have no idea what it is you guys do, and I am perfectly willing to accept that, and that what you do is not what I've been taught. I know that unless I come to Russia(?) and join the school I will never know for sure, and that is okay too. I feel the world is a big enough place, and in all paths there has, historically speaking been many differing ideas regarding the aim, point, strategies, and methods. Why would Daoism be any different?

 

My point in mentioning the yogo was simply that there are cultivation methods that have no concept of "dantian", that cultivate the same things as other schools that do describe the process using the concept of "dantian". To me this is evidence of the "work" taking precedence over the map or conceptual tools used to help an adept along in the process.

 

They have their language, a Daoist might see what they do using another language. What changes? Not the work, just the language.

 

Now whether or not the concept of dantian as used in the above mentioned schools fits, is the same, or is completely different to your school, is a very different question, and as mentioned certainly not one that I can answer (and certainly was not in my mind when I posted), since I don't know your schools methods or concepts. But in all fairness neither can you, for the very same reasons.

 

But to cover myself, and to potentially save a headache later on. I am NOT saying everything that the yogic line (I am referring to a specific one I have had dealings with, not yoga in general, and certainly not 'yoga' as is common in these days) does or practices is the same, or vice versa. Not at all.

 

Best,

Edited September 7, 2014 by snowmonki

[damdao]

I think this is turning a little ad hominen. And about the fees... well, even living in a third world country I don't find the fees (as posted in different Wuliu web pages) high but average. Of course they require a little saving but nothing out of this planet.

About the secret... nobody in a lineage discuss the methods with outsiders, and it is fine. Xiao Yao Pai guys only tell experiences and some explanations, Longmen guys (in Wang's school) don't discuss methods, not even the psychological exercises like repentance. This is a problem (or a paradox) in a public forum but it is the same in Buddhism and so on. Perhaps some day we'll reach the same situation as in Buddhism: they publish secret teachings and allow you to purchase the book but with a disclaimer: not to read the book until the proper initiation is given to you. It is a paradox.

We have discussed the wenwu concept in another thread and I found the, so called, wu character of Opendao's posts very enlightening, otherwise there would be no way to distinguish so clearly neidan from qigong and I many readers here, me included, would continue thinking that with qigong you can achieve xian status (be it immortality or free spiritual existence).

Perhaps it could be a good moment to insist in the opening of a new subforum (like the new of women's cultivation) devoted to discuss alchemy from a technical point of view. Of course, those in lineages will not reveal practices but perhaps could explain the general tenets of their respective schools, q&a threads, etc. And, of course, with the proper textual foundation.

And, trying not to be unfair, perhaps another subforum devoted to ritualistic Daoism could be open. I think that we have here some priests and could be interesting a section for discussion different approaches to rituals or its interpretation. Again, lineage could be a problem.

I think that in due time there could be the same number of subfora as divisions in the Daozang.

[Aetherous]

It's normal for pretty much all schools to have rules of secrecy about certain things. Keeping what's entrusted to you is of prime importance. The difference is that pretty much every other school is readily available to learn from...most people at this forum don't live in, or have the ability to travel to Russia, for instance, and even if they do, maybe they aren't accepted by the school. Not saying this is an excuse for displays of frustration here. It's just an explanation for the frustration. No one likes to be told that everything they've known is just plain wrong, and that the truth is there, but is basically unattainable. People like to be pointed to the true way, and to be able to practice the true way.

[Horus]

Again, all I see is separation. I see groups of people trapped within separation.

 

We are one.

 

If your lineage swears you to secrecy then you swear to remain separate and controlled.

 

Can't you see that such thinking will keep us separate?

 

If you have a method that is better than anyone else's, then share it and the whole world can grow together.

 

What price are you paying for Immortality?

 

It's more than the tuition...

[Horus]

Do you guys really think that any "energy center" in the lower part of the body is the Lower Dan Tien?

 

The location is important, but except that there are a lot of other things Qigong people don't even usually take into consideration.

 

The main obstacle is that they have no Yuan Qi experience (it's not something somebody can do without knowing exactly how to do it), so they don't realize there is something beyond the usual "energy body" they work with in Qigong, Yoga or many other similar methods. Sort of "the world is flat" model... It's not bad, but limited and have no relation to Neidan, which works primary with Yuan Qi.

 

opendao, honestly...

 

If you know where the dantien really is and how it is really created - then why not share it?

 

If you have knowledge that some people do not possess regarding the functions and workings of Yuan Qi in the development of Dan - then why not share it?

 

If you know what is beyond the usual energy body, then why not share?

 

I'm calling for openness, it's even in your forum name, and I can feel your soul crying out for it... But, you are just not being open.

 

You are being openly critical, despising others and calling others approaches out as ignorant and inconclusive - so why not be open and share?

 

Personally I'd rather have a heartfelt connection with you and share my experiences in a considered and measured manner - which all arise from Yuan Qi and De.

 

Lineages are not the end of it. If a highly evolved master has done all of this work in past lives and comes back here, doe it not make sense that said master would have abundant Yuan Qi, and possible that said Yuan Qi abundance can cause certain things to manifest "naturally" prior to actually practicing specific neidan/neigong?

 

I offer you no resistance, only love.

[silent thunder]

opendao, honestly...

 

If you know where the dantien really is and how it is really created - then why not share it?

 

If you have knowledge that some people do not possess regarding the functions and workings of Yuan Qi in the development of Dan - then why not share it?

 

If you know what is beyond the usual energy body, then why not share?

 

I'm calling for openness, it's even in your forum name, and I can feel your soul crying out for it... But, you are just not being open.

 

You are being openly critical, despising others and calling others approaches out as ignorant and inconclusive - so why not be open and share?

 

Personally I'd rather have a heartfelt connection with you and share my experiences in a considered and measured manner - which all arise from Yuan Qi and De.

 

Lineages are not the end of it. If a highly evolved master has done all of this work in past lives and comes back here, doe it not make sense that said master would have abundant Yuan Qi, and possible that said Yuan Qi abundance can cause certain things to manifest "naturally" prior to actually practicing specific neidan/neigong?

 

I offer you no resistance, only love.

well said mate.

 

*deep bow*

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

If you know where the dantien really is and how it is really created - then why not share it?

 

If you have knowledge that some people do not possess regarding the functions and workings of Yuan Qi in the development of Dan - then why not share it?

 

If you know what is beyond the usual energy body, then why not share?

 

 

"If" seems to be the operative word here;)

[opendao]

Again, all I see is separation. I see groups of people trapped within separation.

 

We are one.

 

If your lineage swears you to secrecy then you swear to remain separate and controlled.

 

Can't you see that such thinking will keep us separate?

 

Haha, no I don't like to be one with anyone. I explained to Daeliun why separation is good, why there is time for Wu and Wen... No sense to repeat it here.

 

Guys, your opinions about "lineages", "secrecy", "closed schools" are funny. I'll keep them as is, maybe in a couple years you will read that and will be surprised how somebody can write something without any knowledge.

 

If you have a method that is better than anyone else's, then share it and the whole world can grow together.

 

It was already shared, so some people could already grow. And I never said that "it's better than anyone else's", I told that the method is ONE in various known Neidan schools. Even in those I'm not initiated to and have no any business relation to (I need to claim that for some idiots here).

 

If you know where the dantien really is and how it is really created - then why not share it?

 

Actually I did it a few messages ago in this thread.

 

If you have knowledge that some people do not possess regarding the functions and workings of Yuan Qi in the development of Dan - then why not share it?

 

Because some things are practically not "shareable". Look at your, Taoist Texts or joe previous messages and you can get why. I don't want to ruin my own practice by such "sharing".

It's not even about "secrecy", it's way different, it's about responsibility.

 

If you know what is beyond the usual energy body, then why not share?

 

maybe after I finish with more "primitive" questions :-\ Maybe it's not needed now.

 

I'm calling for openness, it's even in your forum name, and I can feel your soul crying out for it... But, you are just not being open.

 

It depends what you compare to. What is really to be "close"? Obviously, we cannot know anything about "close schools" until we're initiated into them. I'm not initiated into any of them (I'm pretty sure about it). That's why I'm talking about open schools (because I see what they open and how). But no, my soul is not crying, I really don't want to save the world and throw everything out just to be famous on TTB :-)

 

Dao is open for those who open to it. "Dao didn't leave people, but people left it".

 

You are being openly critical, despising others and calling others approaches out as ignorant and inconclusive - so why not be open and share?

 

I'm doing that, but people prefer to write, not to read :-)

 

I criticize, because it's boring to read same stupid things about Daoism all the time, especially when you clearly know that in reality it's not like this. The most here think that Daoism is what is discussed on TTB and written in fantasy books and bad translations, but the reality I'm talking about is in China, between hundred schools who are still teaching openly the ancient methods of Neidan nowadays. When people are initiated into them, I have nothing to criticize!

 

Lineages are not the end of it. If a highly evolved master has done all of this work in past lives and comes back here, doe it not make sense that said master would have abundant Yuan Qi, and possible that said Yuan Qi abundance can cause certain things to manifest "naturally" prior to actually practicing specific neidan/neigong?

 

Everything is possible in theory. I prefer to speak about real facts. There was no one who could became a master without a teacher. So the method is still needed, method needs a lineage, and the practice is still needed. But any practice in Neidan is not natural, it's against the flow, so again, in the tradition such facts are not exist afaik. But for Joe such things are "not complicated and naturally occurring". Maybe he is a master you refer to? But then he can explain all subtle details why people are ageing and dying, how to change this process, what is Yuan Qi, Yuan Jing, what channels are used to manipulate them and so on (the list is long). It's all related to LDT. He thinks he knows it, but his wordings are so different, so I cannot understand him. Maybe. But it looks more like "the absence of the black cat in a dark room".

 

Honestly, I don't care about such "invisible all-known masters", but I need to spend time to reply on such things to clarify them for other people who are still able to think logically and compare. Such people exist, but they prefer to ask in PM and don't write at TTB. It's sad (for TTB), but I understand them...

Edited September 8, 2014 by opendao

[opendao]

My point in mentioning the yogo was simply that there are cultivation methods that have no concept of "dantian", that cultivate the same things as other schools that do describe the process using the concept of "dantian". To me this is evidence of the "work" taking precedence over the map or conceptual tools used to help an adept along in the process.

 

They have their language, a Daoist might see what they do using another language. What changes? Not the work, just the language.

 

Thx. It's all clear. I just wanted to know what you mean by "daoist methods" because nowadays it's a really broad term...

 

About the lines and partial understanding: in Dao teaching there is a core that most of the schools historically share. The definitions are quite concrete, because it's not something abstract, it is how body/spirit works, and if we're looking for same results, we inevitably come to the same methods. It is not something just in one school, the overall tradition is based on that. That's how people with various background can make parallels. But for this people have to be inside the tradition and know the core texts at least. So the language is not a real obstacle, it's possible to map, but the lack of practical experience is the usual issue.

 

It's normal for pretty much all schools to have rules of secrecy about certain things. Keeping what's entrusted to you is of prime importance. The difference is that pretty much every other school is readily available to learn from...most people at this forum don't live in, or have the ability to travel to Russia, for instance, and even if they do, maybe they aren't accepted by the school. Not saying this is an excuse for displays of frustration here. It's just an explanation for the frustration. No one likes to be told that everything they've known is just plain wrong, and that the truth is there, but is basically unattainable. People like to be pointed to the true way, and to be able to practice the true way.

 

I understand that travelling is not an option for many people, so as you can see I don't promote Wu-Liu Pai or any other school. I do absolutely different things here...

 

Many people from various schools have tried to point to the right direction, but usually people just react as mentally ill. Good example is here http://thetaobums.com/topic/35815-minor-schools-and-inconsistent-methods-from-zhong-l-chuan-dao-ji/ , that excerpt from the text can really save you many years of researches, but did somebody has asked why such and such methods don't work? No, they prefer to bark about "patented schools" and "greedy taoi$t$". It's just a reaction, they don't want to change their 'mindset'. I think you know that Dao schools don't really care about such people...

 

Those who can, they can grasp subtle hints and start their own "quest for truth". I'll be the happiest person if they find ANY real Neidan school and start learning from it. I will get nothing from it (even commissions haha), but the world around will be a bit better.

 

About secrets. Historically we see 2 major trends: not to accept foreigners, not to reveal any exact methods. Last 15 years the situation was changed. So now foreigners can learn, and some really hard to find information slowly spreads into the West. But the main obstacle to make Dao open is people. They are closed and spoiled (or ruined) by commercial new-age schools last 50 years. You can see it clearly on this forum :-\

[opendao]

We have discussed the wenwu concept in another thread and I found the, so called, wu character of Opendao's posts very enlightening, otherwise there would be no way to distinguish so clearly neidan from qigong and I many readers here, me included, would continue thinking that with qigong you can achieve xian status (be it immortality or free spiritual existence).

 

Thanks! really appreciate your understanding.

 

Perhaps it could be a good moment to insist in the opening of a new subforum (like the new of women's cultivation) devoted to discuss alchemy from a technical point of view. Of course, those in lineages will not reveal practices but perhaps could explain the general tenets of their respective schools, q&a threads, etc. And, of course, with the proper textual foundation.

 

I don't think subforum can help. It's like Pit section, an attempt to hide really important discussions and save faces for some idiots. And again, what to do with all the commercial sects trying to sell their qigong exercises under Neidan sauce? Forget about them? It's not responsible. Fight with them? That's what I'm doing from time to time, damn, because I see no other solution. No, until everybody can post any stupidity without arguments, TTB will be a hot place (hell? inferno? lol). Such issues can be solved through a moderation, when people with no arguments (classical texts, first of all) or with no ability to discuss in a normal "scientific" way, such people have to be banned. If they don't change their behaviour, they are deleted. Just my observation though, but I know some successful communities that work like this. But there the moderators are initiated Daoists... Another thing that can help is to prohibit any practical instructions. Neidan people don't publish it anyway, but it'll stop all these irresponsible threads as Golden Flower one. People don't really realize what they do with their own fate and how they destroy the future of those who follow their "wise and useful" advises or take their fantastic experiences too serious....

[idquest]

So we have JB's statement about "naturally occurring phenomena" on the one hand (with which I pretty much agree base on my own experience).

 

On the other hand we have an idea that neidan is about going against the current, reversing the flow. Which is an interesting, powerful, and logical point.

 

So if we put aside all personalities issues, how do you reconcile these two if you think both are valid assumptions?

[joeblast]

you're missing the point also

 

the body naturally tops its resources off. myriad things in life deplete those resources. that issue is something to be rectified via practices. xing, ming, and all that.

 

I dont get where anyone figured these two concepts were somehow opposed to one another. or opendao, if we want to be specific, nobody said such a preposterous thing before his misreading and decided to tell us we're all wrong and completely undeveloped.

[opendao]

you're missing the point also

 

Nope, he could say it clear and short.

 

the body naturally tops its resources off.

 

Why people die then? If they can "top off" all resources, then they won't die naturally... Even Qigong people cannot replenish resources in full (there are obvious visible signs of it).

 

myriad things in life deplete those resources. that issue is something to be rectified via practices. xing, ming, and all that.

 

But such rectification is not something "naturally occurring", that's the point. And it's complicated.

 

I dont get where anyone figured these two concepts were somehow opposed to one another. or opendao, if we want to be specific, nobody said such a preposterous thing before his misreading and decided to tell us we're all wrong and completely undeveloped.

 

There is an often saying that "dragon and tiger are fighting". If they are not opposed, then why they are fighting?

I can write more examples, but maybe you can read something except TTB? If nobody wrote it here before, it doesn't automatically mean that it's wrong

 

The opposition is a natural way, btw, so in the practice nobody opposes Xing and Ming (they already are), but merge them.

[Antares]

JB wrote:

 

you put your own inferences on top off, naturally occurring and how that's rectified by practices, etc, etc....and that's the problem when you attend a fascist neidan school where your teacher is your parent and owner and treat you like a pet, a subject, and everything oh everything and how they say everything they say is 100% gospel, and if you say it differently, then you're delusional...

 

 

dude....just go live in seclusion if you're going to act like this, you dont need to be interacting with humans.

 

Some of renowned taoists of the Past had been looking for a Teacher who could transmit the neidan method, for all their life and when they finally found him they had had to serve to him for few years before Teacher started teach them. Consider this facr as argument and remember that actually it is (real Teaching) is far not for everyone. I do not say to become opendao' student but just give you real example how people of the past estimated the real Teaching. Now situation has changed and you should not judge taoists if you just can't get it right. You should not call taoist methods fascist just bc you never spoke to real taoist people. I had a chance to speak to a few students from taoist neidan schools and no one said that things happend naturally in pracrtice. All of them have certain method of cultivation. All the same in authentic yogic systems. They are not fascist at all. This confusaion has roots in that that people read some pops books and make conclusions on the basis of the information they get from it. But authentic teaching is not transmitted by books.

[joeblast]

*facepalm* where did I say again that the alchemical process is natural??? I said the body naturally seeks to top off its naturally occurring systems or some such verbiage. How the hell does one get "alchemy will happen if you just sit back and watch" out of it??

 

That's the problem when I have to sit and address people's mistaken inferences about things I write - you included a quote from me, addressing a few misconceptions of OD's, and from that small snippet you continue his erroneous line of questioning.

 

When its as bad as OD gets and he literally cant read a post of your without imprinting his own views about what my views are onto it, I am better off just not even having the discussion, lest I wind up with side discussions like these borne of misconception in the first place.

[Antares]

What does mean "top off naturally"? I did not get it.

 

Anyway I quoted your words about "fascist neidan schools". I dunno where you could meet such schools. Sounds weird to me.

[opendao]

*facepalm* where did I say again that the alchemical process is natural??? I said the body naturally seeks to top off its naturally occurring systems or some such verbiage.

 

You said that such things as I'm speaking about (and I spoke about LDT) are "naturally occurring" and "not complicated". It's the same as "alchemical process is natural". Because LDT is a part of alchemical process. Probably you have your own definition for "natural", but again, it's a term from Neidan (ziran) and you are suppose to know it and use accordingly, so not to confuse anyone...

 

Also you wrote it to support your idea that LDT exists in any random being without any practice. So the context was evident.

 

Now you say that body naturally seeks to top off "naturally occurring systems", but before you wrote it in the context of the alchemical process: "the body naturally tops (not seeks, but tops off! - OD) its resources off. myriad things in life deplete those resources. that issue is something to be rectified via practices. xing, ming, and all that. ". So again you're speaking about some natural process that can lead to the alchemical transformation. The body naturally cannot top off ALL "naturally occurring systems" inside (including Ming, it occurred when people are born, so also naturally). That's why in Neidan it's important to distinguish different body systems. Do you really think you show your understanding of such processes and differences? I see no even single word...

 

Joe, there is nothing really to argue. You said what you said. If you wanted to say something else, then you always could clarify, instead of trolling, blasting and insulting.

 

When its as bad as OD gets and he literally cant read a post of your without imprinting his own views about what my views are onto it,

 

I don't read your mind, I read your messages. If you write 2+2=5, then what I really can imprint?

 

Is it literally? Yes, sure. As in any other science, the words are precise tools to pass the knowledge. If you say "naturally occurring" then your readers think things occur as a tree grows up, ie "naturally". What you really wanted to say by that? You know better, I can only guess, but think sometimes how others read your postings.

 

, etc, etc....and that's the problem when you attend a fascist neidan school where your teacher is your parent and owner and treat you like a pet, a subject, and everything oh everything and how they say everything they say is 100% gospel, and if you say it differently, then you're delusional...

 

Have you ever seen any Neidan teacher in your life? I doubt it. Write about something you know, ah? Or don't write anything, it will be also fair.

[soaring crane]

...

[Brian]

Opendao

 

From an impartial reader of this thread, I get the impression that you alone know The Truth, and everyone else is utterly wrong.

 

I prostrate myself before your superior wisdom.... how refreshing to see someone so completely assured/deluded by their own correctness.

Have you met TaoMaster? He is also quite impressive...

[silent thunder]

(smile)

[Gerard]

Should filling the Dan Tien be considered an important mile stone before an esoteric practitioner can move on to other practices.

 

IMO, not important at all. Where did you get this idea from?

 

Do we 'fill up' the Dan Tien just by deep full breathing and putting attention there? Does reverse breathing help the process? Is it necessary?

 

Why don't you trying calming the monkey mind first. This is a very serious attainment.

 

 

IMO, skip this practice of the Mo Pai system and focus on breathing and taming the mind with breathing and mental tranquility led by concentration and insight. Please read this basic information.

 

Now, back to your question: how can you fill in what it can't be filled in in the first place?

 

And no, what John Chang states in The Magus of Java is technically incorrect...a different story is forming the spiritual embryo in that area (condensed yang-yin ball). Still this practice is very risky especially for people with too much mental activity (this includes computer use) and little physical one...again refer to the initial sentence.

 

Secondly, place a lot more effort in building serious leg strength rather than sitting meditation, which is not that suited in our Wood age. Wood needs and likes movement; a lot of it. The Water cycle (Buddha's) is long gone.

 

Lastly, Buddhist meditation is superior to Taoist meditation methods, except when it comes to energy work and purifying and understanding the nature of the mind by manipulating the body, which is a reflection of the Universe and a projection of the mind in this physical reality via the 5 elements or qualities of yang-yin, then I would refer to Taoist work, i.e. Baguazhang, which is the highest neigong method available.

 

 

Best of luck.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Gerard

[thelerner]

bump. 

 

re-reading some of these pages.  Good stuff.  Early on I said I'd condense the whole thing into a more readable form.  One day..