What is potential in terms of Taoist practices?

[Songtsan]

When one gathers potential, what is one gathering exactly?

Where is it kept?

What is done with it?

etc...

 

 

[ChiDragon]

The highest potential is to be a better person mentally and physically. Period.

[Songtsan]

what about in the 'afterlife'?

[ChiDragon]

There is no afterlife for a Taoist.

[Songtsan]

...as in, the physical body never dies, or the etheric body never dies? Just transitions?

 

Conventionally speaking, does one build an immortal 'energy' body that lives on in the astral planes?

[Vitalii]

...as in, the physical body never dies, or the etheric body never dies? Just transitions?

 

Conventionally speaking, does one build an immortal 'energy' body that lives on in the astral planes?

 

Inner Alchemy methods allow to penetrate into the depths of essential Being. Through study and comprehension of inner world in a state of peace and quietness, we penetrate into the mysteries of Being. Methods of Inner Alchemy will help to return to the roots, to touch original (“divine”) nature and direct own knowledge to understanding and connection with the truth (with Dao). Therefore, it becomes possible to understand the world deeper, and to result in a more adequate interaction with the outside world. A Master who attained perfection by practicing techniques of Inner Alchemy is called the “Immortal \ Inhabitant of heaven \ Saint” (仙 – «Xian”).

http://zhendaopai.com/inner-alchemy/

 

Maximal result is understood herein as transformation of body, life energy and Consciousness/Spirit/Mind, and their merging, which is called as attainment of the Body of Light. Such a level is regarded as ultimate not only in Daoist tradition, but also in some of Buddhist schools. It means that on this level, a person exists in expressed as well as in unexpressed way, is one whole with Dao and, meantime, is individual, went beyond all possible limitations (e.g., of time and space). When such a Master leaves this world, he dissolves in a Clear Light with an iridescent shine. In such a transformation, even a physical body is converted into a clear energy, which means that after the Master passes nothing is left after him. This Great Way is also called as “Neidan”, or the “Great Way of Inner Alchemy”. It is the most complicated, and its studying and, consequently, realization is possible for people with great aptitude only.

http://zhendaopai.com/great-way/

[Songtsan]

Hmmm...very interesting. I will have to dive deeper into that.

[Bearded Dragon]

When one gathers potential, what is one gathering exactly?

Where is it kept?

What is done with it?

etc...

 

You don't gather potential. You merely borrow it by being in the right place at the right time.

 

You could be a bad person in your town, but all of a sudden you go to jail and look like a saint in comparison to everyone there. This is a good example of potential difference. Energetically you are no different. In order to use potential you just have to be aware of it.

 

In other words when you say "gathering potential" it's just about increasing your awareness.

[C T]

For a simple buddhist, potential means the arising of an understanding that its possible to end afflictions by keeping precepts in line with the Noble Eightfold Path (which is akin to practitioners of other traditions who studiously follow the way of their elders).

 

For a middling buddhist, potential means the arising of an understanding that its possible to end afflictions quickly, and the way to do it is to be dedicated to the wish for ending the afflictions of all beings based on the full realisation that what other beings want deep in their hearts is common across all classes of beings, from the high heavens thru to the lowest hells.

 

For a buddhist with superior insight, potential means the arising of wisdom in fully knowing the hows, whys and where to recognise the base energy behind the arising of intent-process-response culminating in spontaneous knowledge (omniscient awareness) conjoined with indescribable compassionate outpourings (the kind of compassion not limited by the 6 sense boundaries)... imminent Tathagathahood.

 

(this is my personal take, not representative of the views of others who claim similar labelship).

[NotVoid]

The highest potential is to be a better person mentally and physically. Period.

 

There is no afterlife for a Taoist.

 

Hello ChiDragon. I am curious why you state your own personal beliefs and views as if they were absolute facts in regards to taoism as a whole (which includes a very broad spectrum of views and practices), rather than state them as just your own personal beliefs and the way you personally prefer to view things? Most certainly there are many traditions in taoism that involve a spiritual aspect, and which speak of different realms or dimensions. A person might nitpick about the exact appropriateness of the term 'spiritual', but from what I have seen it is an appropriate term to use for for many views and practices in many traditions in taoism, and probably is relevant to most traditions in taoism.

[ChiDragon]

Hello NotVoid,
I do respect your own personal beliefs. I do have absolute facts in regards to Taoist beliefs. Have you heard of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming Kung? There are two sides to Taoism, one is philosophical and the other is spiritual. However, anyone can claim anything in the spiritual side but that is beyond my scope. I have not come across any claims that a Taoist wants to be reincarnated and had an afterlife, have you?

Edited January 1, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Wells]

potential = jing

[Brian]

As an aside, a physicist might say that potential is the capacity to do work, and might point out that one of the ways to increase potential is to do work into the potential gradient.

[NotVoid]

Hello NotVoid,

I do respect your own personal beliefs. I do have absolute facts in regards to Taoist beliefs. Have you heard of the Dual Cultivation of Xing and Ming Kung? There are two sides to Taoism, one is philosophical and the other is spiritual. However, anyone can claim anything in the spiritual side but that is beyond my scope. I have not come across any claims that a Taoist wants to be reincarnated and had an afterlife, have you?

 

It seems an important concept in at least some of the taoist traditions I have come across that a person survives death in some form or other, call it spirit or soul or whatever, and going along with that is the concept of different 'spiritual' dimensions or realms. I am familiar with the terms xing and ming, which seem to be primarily associated with internal alchemy traditions in taoism, no? Anyway, I was just sort of curious why you would state that the highest potential of taoism is mainly with body and mind and that taoists do not believe in an afterlife, when actually many if not most taoist traditions appear to hold to the concepts of a spirit of some form and an afterlife of some sort. I don't think we can bypass such concepts in taoism so easily. Some of the taoist traditions I am familiar with have practices in which these other dimensions are explored in much detail, so that the student is supposed to learn through direct experience about such things. It is certainly a large part of some taoist traditions as best as I have been able to determine.

Edited January 1, 2014 by NotVoid

[NotVoid]

When one gathers potential, what is one gathering exactly?

Where is it kept?

What is done with it?

etc...

 

I don't know that taoists would speak of potential as something that you store somewhere, but there is a good PDF e-book English translation available of a Chinese book on taoist practices and views by a taoist who studied taoism in a mountain taoist temple, in I think Lao Shan, before the Chinese cultural revoltuion destroyed or crippled much of the taoist temples and long standing taoist cultivation traditions. He goes into quite a lot of detail about the views and practices and what the practices are meant to achieve from his particular taoist tradition, which he refers to as a long standing authentic taoist tradition which he sees as a different tradition than many of the religious taoist traditions that have also arisen in China. He views his tradition of taoism as non-religious. He says taoist cultivation traditions actually arose from a period in time that long preceded the Yellow Emperor.

The ebook PDF is available for purchase here:

Dao and De - Life and Afterlife - by Wu Dao Zhenzi:

http://qi.org/index.php?option=com_ezcatalog&task=viewcategory&id=3&Itemid=41

A free excerpt PDF from this ebook can be downloaded here;

http://qi.org/daoanddesample.pdf

I found the book to be quite informative.

Edited January 1, 2014 by NotVoid

[ChiDragon]

It seems an important concept in at least some of the taoist traditions I have come across that a person survives death in some form or other, call it spirit or soul or whatever, and going along with that is the concept of different 'spiritual' dimensions or realms. I am familiar with the terms xing and ming, which seem to be primarily associated with internal alchemy traditions in taoism, no? Anyway, I was just sort of curious why you would state that the highest potential of taoism is mainly with body and mind and that taoists do not believe in an afterlife, when actually many if not most taoist traditions appear to hold to the concepts of a spirit of some form and an afterlife of some sort. I don't think we can bypass such concepts in taoism so easily. Some of the taoist traditions I am familiar with have practices in which these other dimensions are explored in much detail, so that the student is supposed to learn through direct experience about such things. It is certainly a large part of some taoist traditions as best as I have been able to determine.

 

Well, I only hold to the standard practice of the QuanZhen Tao but not other Taoist beliefs. It is more than just associated with internal alchemy traditions. Perhaps read this, with your own discretion, and see does it alter your thinking in anyway.

DCXM

Edited January 1, 2014 by ChiDragon

[NotVoid]

 

Well, I only hold to the standard practice of the QuanZhen Tao but not other Taoist beliefs. It is more than just associated with internal alchemy traditions. Perhaps read this, with your own discretion, and see does it alter your thinking in anyway.

DCXM

 

I am familiar to some degree with the concepts of xing and ming, and your interpretations on these as well. What I was really getting at with my comment to you was that when taoism in general is referred to as in the OP, I think we have to consider all taoist traditions as a whole however. There is not really one cohesive taoist tradition, but many different traditions with various views and practices which arose at different points through history. Quanzhen is only one taoist tradition amongst many taoist traditions, and it is a relatively later taoist tradition. The views in other taoist traditions can vary to some degree. The e-book I referred to in another post here provides a detailed view into another such taoist tradition, for example. Actually a very interesting book for those who may want to learn more about authentic taoist practices and views which existed before the culural revolution. Another interesting book of this type is 'The Teachings of Daoist Master Zhuang' - by Michael Saso, which provides a lot of insight into the Zhengyi Dao tradition, if I recall correctly. Quite informative books.

Edited January 2, 2014 by NotVoid

[deci belle]

The highest potential is to be a better person mentally and physically. Period.

 

In the context of the OP, this is ludicrous.

[deci belle]

Concepts are not it.

 

It is not found in words.

 

Chi D. is talking the philosophy of a student clinging to religion.

 

When you turn the light of creation around yourself, this light is itself potential.

 

Seeing potential is dealing with essence directly with no intermediary.

 

Culling the elixir is non-gathering gathering. Gathering is just seeing reality with nonpsychological awareness. Fancy Chinese words spoken by a long-time habitual literalist like Chi D are a load of crap.

 

What do you do with it?

 

Immortalists gather potential by seeing essence and then store it in recondite secrecy in the empty vessel of nonpsychological awareness void of intellectualism in the center of the real immaterial body of earth, which has no location.

[Walker]

Public service announcement for newbies who might be fooled by his false professorly airs:

 

ChiDragon's hackneyed ideas do not represent Daoism in general.

 

They also do not represent Quanzhen teachings in specific.

 

The works of Quanzhen Daoism's founder Wang Chongyang's teacher directly reference the afterlife. Subsequent writings in the tradition naturally do, as well. In addition to the writings being this way, the oral tradition and praxis of Quanzhen Daoism as well as many other branches, if not all or nearly all of them in Daoism, include teachings and practices that directly relate to what those of us who have not yet transcended distinguishing birth and death would call the afterlife.

 

ChiDragon has to be corrected here, again and again. He appears to be inveterately attached to his fantasy, which is that he has actually studied these things. Why he is permitted to troll here and boldly lie is beyond me. Freedom of speech is important, but he is disrupting other people's ability to learn. That behavior befouls this board. The airing of unfounded opinion is as useful as posting photos of that part of the anatomy to which opinions are so often likened. I personally am tired of seeing this guy air his proverbial anus everywhere, even if he does try so hard to pucker it into a staid, scholarly expression and nicknamed it "fact."

 

I point out that the same ChiDragon who provides a link to his copy-paste fest regarding xing and ming above, had within days of starting that thread boldly declared that he had never seen the terms xing and ming in any Daoist texts. That amounts to a confession of never actually having studied Daoism. Saying "there is no afterlife in Daoism" is a similar confession. Deci Belle is too kind in calling this guy a literalist. A literalist has at least exposed himself to the literature. In the case of a man as deeply and recalcitrantly dishonest as ChiDragon, I am not even sure which term fits.

 

Regarding the OP's question, Deci Belle's answer seems excellent, as her talk of "real earth" is a direct reference to an important key to Daoist practice which can be found in the primary texts if you care to read them. I wish I understood it well enough to elaborate--alas, my knowledge is basically just intellectual.

[Songtsan]

I am not concerned at all with temporal or temporary gains for myself, although i would certainly like to leave good things behind my inevitable transition into the great mystery of 'death'

 

I am looking at my current corporeal existence as a chance to make an investment into future existences, whatever they may be.

 

I admit that I am still very confused/ignorant of what I should be 'doing'

 

'recondite' is a perfect word for this subject

 

I am trying to look/see each moment and find that which is of value beyond mere entertainment..trying to find that special magical extra something of worth..

 

while I know that techniques, etc. are conceptual and limited, does anyone have any literal explanations of what I should do?

 

Trying to hit it from all angles - from conventional to transcendent..

 

as always, thank you Deci Belle for these explanations which give me the opportunity to expand my 'self' or that, gain wisdom or open new doors.

 

and thanks to all posters for your time/energy...every little bit helps

[ChiDragon]

To those whom may concern....

I am sorry that I got involved with this thread. Due to the lack of the desirable knowledge, in your opinion, I will no longer be involved with those who do not wish to listen to this dumb China man, yours truly.

[NotVoid]

ChiDragon, your opinions are just as valid here as anyone else's, but from my perspective I think where some people may be having a bit of an issue is where you sometimes seem to state your personal opinions and beliefs as if it is absolute and incontrovertible fact, rather than just your own personal views and beliefs and interpretations. You are certainly not the only one who ever does that here however. My advice for anyone for what it is worth would be to try to relax more and try not to take more mundane things so seriously, especially in an internet discussion forum such as this. If on any given day, if even just 0.001% of what people posted in an internet forum such as this had some actual basis in reality then we should probably consider that a very good day indeed, and I am probably being generous with that. My own silly opinion is people really should focus on getting more in tune with nature, and yes, that is a loaded statement. All the best...

Edited January 2, 2014 by NotVoid

[ChiDragon]

NotVoid,
Thanks for the kind words. I am practicing the DCXM which require me to follow the principles of the Quanzhen Tao. One of the requirement is to isolate the facts from the fallacies and opinions. What I am putting out here are not my personal opinions but from the high standards of the Quanzhen Tao. Some of the people were against me was because they only thought it was some translation from some fancy Chinese words without basis. I saw those who had accused me of putting lots of craps which only their personal opinions. Thus I haven't seen any merits in their presentations which are so convincing in any way. Most of time, I only see statements to say what is not rather than what it is. However, due to my present practice in DCXM, I have great tolerance for this kind of activities.


PS.....
There is really noting serious about what was going on in the forum, it is only a matter how one handles the adverse situations with calmness.

Edited January 2, 2014 by ChiDragon

[deci belle]

Chi says:

Well, I only hold to the standard practice of the QuanZhen Tao but not other Taoist beliefs

Its kinda like jazz~ if you have to say what kind of jazz it is— IT'S NOT JAZZ.

Opinions are not valid here, in the context of this thread. But one such as Chi should not be too quick to help others before he has been able to help himself. Nevertheless, what Chi said below is the most powerful part of Chi's real path of gradual practice, which has been apparent to me since before Chi started bumming around on this forum:

There is really noting serious about what was going on in the forum, it is only a matter how one handles the adverse situations with calmness

Unfortunately, again Chi is relying on the literal sense of the level of teaching meant for the lowest of the low. How one handles the adverse situations with calmness is not necessarily effective in terms of gathering potential, Chi.

 

What the real meaning of not minding in the face of objects is is seeing potential in terms of the matter of not employing the thinking mind in coming into contact with ordinary circumstances complacently. Just plugging ahead because it's good like a dead piece of wood isn't good, Chi. This will never turn alchemic lead into gold elixir. Just being able to let things go dispassionately is absolutely valid and effective as a formative morality, but then the rote clinging to the Word and teachings without insight is another matter entirely.

Furthermore, Chi has never been able to see truth outside of the Word. This is a killer. Truth is an ideal of the West. Truth doesn't work in terms of the real. When Chi can drop his iron-fisted conceptual intellectual grasp of ideas relative to words and just see reality as is, there is no longer any need of ideals, ideas, truth, or conceptual arrangements relative to anything to activate enlightening function.

I will add a bit more about Chi's approach to Complete Reality in general to serve as an example for what is NOT essential to entering the mysteries that taoism nor any other tradition has discovered first or invented without precedent. There have always been those who were born knowing complete reality. Aliens are not responsible. It is mind itself. There is nothing inside or outside mind. Mind is unattributable, inconceivable. Not knowing potential is not knowing yourself.

Know thyself.

But first I will address Songstan's comment.

Songstan, why do you deliberately separate yourself from this important thing, the matter of life and death, by saving it for a future lifetime? That you may or may not realize complete reality in this lifetime is immaterial and a given. Making a needless pact with yourself over this is relegating the fact that your self-importance matters to reality. It does not matter to reality. But what you should realize is that seeing potential is a matter of not employing the thinking mind in coming into contact with ordinary circumstances. Why saver that for later, hmmmmm?

Dealing with potential IS the work of gradual practice leading to the sudden realization of causeless nonorigination. Not minding in the face of situations is a preliminary stage. Afterwards, it's fine to kill a buddha. I don't mind killing buddhas at all.

I will repeat: Seeing potential is a matter of not employing the thinking mind in coming into contact with ordinary circumstances.

Chi is wedded to the word and unto death will he part. This will not do for those with the will to enlightenment. Obviously, seeing (stealing potential in taoist terminology of the highest order) is gathering potential and storing it as unrestored elixir in the pot pairing fire and water. This is a fact that has nothing to do with Chi's practical understanding of his new religion.

Chi had been a master translator, realizing for us the true meaning behind the (translated) words. Now the ranks of recreational philosophers will never know what they lost when Chi discovered the fancy Chinese name for Complete Reality tradition (I AM jealous of the hat he gets to wear though).

It's all words for this new acolyte so, regrettably, nothing has changed as regards our faithful old Chi Dragon.

Moving along…

It is not possible to understand potential, nor its gathering. This is simply due to the fact that there is nothing-whatsoever to understand. When you see something transform before your eyes for the first time… this is immediate. This is mind. Potential is everything in its uncreated state. DON'T THINK.

Aware mind (your awareness that creates illusion) is uncreated. It is unattributable. Your own mind right now in its present deluded state is already uncreated. That's what awareness is. This is all it has ever been: Unborn.

ARE YOU STILL NOT THINKING? Right now you are uncreated but you don't know it. The uncreated you is just you right now. Right now, the uncreated is the entire manifest reality of karmic evolution. This is the temporal. In the absolute, the totality of potential is also uncreate right now. Adepts come from this perspective right now as the knowledge of nonorigination is the potential of creation right now, whether or not you are an apparition in the temporal or nothing-whatsoever in its homeland before the dichotomy of the two things spontaneously manifests as Changes.

The bad habit to eliminate from your modus operandi is thinking of things as created. Why? Because then you will have no reason to entertain speculative opportunistic relationships with stultified cloying energy (like every one else caught in the eternally created rounds of birth and death).

Ever wonder why there are so many unenlightened people and so few enlightened people? Well, stop wondering, because everyone is enlightened due to our nature as the uncreate itself. The difference is that enlightening beings have come to see and understand the celestial design as the absolute is not just inherent in creation— creation IS the absolute. They just go ahead and prove it in ordinary affairs.

Furthermore, buddhas step right over eternity (creation) and act like it (in the temporal) by not going along with karmic events in broad daylight, seeing how it is and responding accordingly. There is simply no need to make arrangements with it. It's as good as DEAD, because it's already created. Just deal with its potential aspect in terms of response and forget the rest.

When you yourself and all things as well are seen as uncreated apparitions so you do not partake of speculative schemes of even the most extreme subtlety, while at the same time observing objectively and responding to situations appropriately, then you can be said to have turned the light around and are operating the subtlety of spiritual potential in the midst of mundanity.

This is the description of one's activation of inherent enlightening being as an expression of Complete Reality. Buddhism calls this Suchness.

Potential isn't a part of reality. It IS reality. Seeing reality is stealing potential. It takes an instant to become potential and forever live outside of the influence of karmic momentum.

 

 

ed note: add below first line, change "they" to "buddhas" in 18th paragraph

Edited January 3, 2014 by deci belle