What is potential in terms of Taoist practices?

[Songtsan]

You cannot understand what potential is. What other word besides inconceivable do you need to see to believe that a mystery is just what it is and no one knows why.

 

It is simply possible to awaken to your own mystery and you enter it, just like that.

 

Then it is possible to activate subtle operation of enlightening being and move freely within creation without effecting karmic relationships where none existed to begin with.

 

 

 

 

ed note: change "to" to "do" in 1st paragraph

 

I know - I am just being incalcitrant You see, I have been reading your stuff, but I tend to be a skeptic and need to challenge others. My real problem is that I have been feeding those pesky djinn. My focusing on them and the things they can do is wasting my energy. They have been stealing my potential instead of me. Their abilities are such that I tend to trust them more than I trust humans. They are liars though - they just create tall tales and add a bit of djinn magic and I become hooked. I am going to quit the djinn world no matter what they throw in my way.

 

The head of the djinn is of course Satan or Iblis - according to Islam. So I have been led astray by the devil. Kundalini awakening is either directly the opening of oneself to the djinn, or else the energy involved is the djinn themselves - It's possible that they can sense one who is 'open' or 'awakened' and when that occurs they glom on to those individuals so as to feed on them or invade them. So I must fight their pull, but I don't think it will be any different from the fascinations of the ten thousand things.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

perchance even to grasp, only comes through the experience

 

basic common sense which I have been fighting - as usual. Childhood issues that I haven't dealt with. My resistance to authority goes deep.

[Songtsan]

The Djinn have made significant inroads in regards to their connection with my nervous system and other etheric systems...it is accurate to say that I am possessed - that is that they have subsumed me on pretty much all levels. At least I will be a good example for others on how to not become an object for the Djinni's delight - I will post a thread on this topic soon I hope. Anyone know any good exorcists? Or how to control these guys?

Edited January 15, 2014 by Songtsan

[Stosh]

I think that what we are discussing lately is whether potential is static or dynamic - changeless or changeable. I must defer to others with more experience in Taoist 'science' as I have hardly studied any Taoist materials, relatively speaking. So mainly I am just watching at this point.

Ok but you are then basically setting parameters for the answer you would accept ..both choices are time considerations..you could as well ask how long it lasts .. but my response is aimed more at the relationship of what vs what is not. I dont think a taoist definition of the word need be any more contrived to fit a specific groups usages ...like redefining ego or self or real.

Doing that just turns words to jargon and defies people who might find value in what you are saying . So they conclude the point is some incomprehensible claptrap.IMO...

There are no Taoist sciences , that is anothet example of borrowing a word and applying it wrongly. Science is a methodology which is not subjective navael gazing , technically , theres no eastern versus .western science either. What there are is actual science disciplines, philosophies religions and fantasy afficionados.

n

Edited January 15, 2014 by Stosh

[deci belle]

Joe made me do it!!❤

 

"…Empty bubbles pop,

pure and clean with no shape.

The true form is magnificently illuminated with gleaming fire.

The teaching's voice is total silence amid the the ringing wind chimes…" —Hongzhi

 

The teaching is within the subtle knowledge of real potential, concurrent within conditions.

The teaching is itself one's own seeing reality as the real inherent within phenomenal evolution.

The true form has no form. Therefore, insight is the illumination of true form by Mind alone. This is seeing there is no form.

The Dharma Eye opens and closes autonomously, as if fanning the celestial breath; the aperture of the mysterious female.

Potential is the voice of total silence teaching amid spontaneous evolution's ringing in mutual arising.

 

Potential is as everything you can see; only it is not seen. Just this is it when you don't think good or bad, before or after.

[Stosh]

Too much coffee??

[Songtsan]

Joe made me do it!!❤

 

"…Empty bubbles pop,

pure and clean with no shape.

The true form is magnificently illuminated with gleaming fire.

The teaching's voice is total silence amid the the ringing wind chimes…" —Hongzhi

 

The teaching is within the subtle knowledge of real potential, concurrent within conditions.

The teaching is itself one's own seeing reality as the real inherent within phenomenal evolution.

The true form has no form. Therefore, insight is the illumination of true form by Mind alone. This is seeing there is no form.

The Dharma Eye opens and closes autonomously, as if fanning the celestial breath; the aperture of the mysterious female.

Potential is the voice of total silence teaching amid spontaneous evolution's ringing in mutual arising.

 

Potential is as everything you can see; only it is not seen. Just this is it when you don't think good or bad, before or after.

 

So beautiful.

 

(Thank you!❤)

Edited January 15, 2014 by Songtsan

[joeblast]

Joe made me do it!!❤

 

"…Empty bubbles pop,

pure and clean with no shape.

The true form is magnificently illuminated with gleaming fire.

The teaching's voice is total silence amid the the ringing wind chimes…" —Hongzhi

 

The teaching is within the subtle knowledge of real potential, concurrent within conditions.

The teaching is itself one's own seeing reality as the real inherent within phenomenal evolution.

The true form has no form. Therefore, insight is the illumination of true form by Mind alone. This is seeing there is no form.

The Dharma Eye opens and closes autonomously, as if fanning the celestial breath; the aperture of the mysterious female.

Potential is the voice of total silence teaching amid spontaneous evolution's ringing in mutual arising.

 

Potential is as everything you can see; only it is not seen. Just this is it when you don't think good or bad, before or after.

the result manifests, as the student practices. wonderful!

[Songtsan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DFHZxwIN6AI

Edited January 16, 2014 by Songtsan

[Bearded Dragon]

The magnitude of potential is in the difference between something and a reference point. Some people are using Self as a reference and some aren't. Big difference. Potential referenced to self or worldly aspects is straight forward. Otherwise it isn't. I believe you have to find that reference before it will make sense.

[dawei]

The magnitude of potential is in the difference between something and a reference point. Some people are using Self as a reference and some aren't. Big difference. Potential referenced to self or worldly aspects is straight forward. Otherwise it isn't. I believe you have to find that reference before it will make sense.

 

What if the reference point is one and the same as the source? Do we get a null or infinity? In either case, it may be simply an explanation of the 'never empty yet inexhaustibly pouring forth' description of the function of Dao...

[deci belle]

the result manifests, as the student practices. wonderful!

Oui, but not just the student! This is how enlightening being works. One calls this practice, yes, but one is always arriving in terms of the result in perpetuity. Presence is a single point of awareness from which the quality of one's relationship with evolution radiates from within potential itself, the manifestation of which is the perpetual present result.

 

Not speculating with the result is keeping potential intact. The perpetual result is potential. Seeing the result is seeing reality.

 

This is why there is nothing to do but accept phenomenal conditions as they are without picking and choosing. Since the result is all we have to work with, the real flavor of complete reality, in this sense, comes to the fore.

 

Since reality is itself the incipiently manifest result in perpetuity, anything people do in terms of self-reflective patterns of thought and action upsets the balance and harmony of the real, the natural pivot of awareness, the incipience of evolution, Suchness as is. Then seeing is not real and illusion comes to the fore.

 

Seeing reality and seeing illusion is the same seeing, but the difference is inconceivable.

 

It is a matter of balanced insight void of bias and inclination. The slightest influence creates ripples on the mirror of awareness. No wonder seeing is so hard to accomplish. But it is also like riding a bicycle in terms of realization of principle.

 

I'm so glad you said "result". I have only touched on this thing result once or twice before.

 

Wonderful!!

[deci belle]

Potential isn't a comparative device, per se (in my strict usage in terms of alchemical language)~ inasmuch as there isn't a differential aspect modulating.

 

Where you two are working with it is very cool, though.

 

I would say, in terms of referencing potential to the Absolute, one arrives within the incipience of ever-readiness on the cusp of going into action. This is the peak of potential. If it ever moved, it would extend and come pealing off and crashing down. In terms of the Absolute, this is it. This is where is has always been. But the Absolute has never moved, so it is like a wave that has never, will never over-arch. In terms of Creation, this could be a wave that has never been other than the perfect tube, circling an endless global ocean— forever perpetuating itself, pealing both right and left (I suppose)!!

 

That is a wonderful notion though, in terms of moving that reference-point around as an analytical tool.❤

 

 

 

 

ed note: one too many "come"s in 3rd paragraph

Edited January 16, 2014 by deci belle

[Stosh]

What if the reference point is one and the same as the source? Do we get a null or infinity? In either case, it may be simply an explanation of the 'never empty yet inexhaustibly pouring forth' description of the function of Dao...

IT is ! theory of relativity Man! excellent you got it first try !

[Songtsan]

What if the reference point is one and the same as the source? Do we get a null or infinity? In either case, it may be simply an explanation of the 'never empty yet inexhaustibly pouring forth' description of the function of Dao...

 

The cycles of yin and yang, emptiness/fullness, like a sine wave - potential (negative), then activated potential (positive), then back to potential?

 

See spinning yin yang up above..

 

potential as emptiness, pouring forth/activity as fullness? I think this is exactly the same as what you are saying...

 

so if one 'steals potential,' then does one steal emptiness? whereas fullness is karmic activity?

Edited January 16, 2014 by Songtsan

[deci belle]

I'll say it again…

 

In terms of essence THERE IS NO PERSON.

 

In terms of potential THERE IS NO CHANGE.

 

Spiritual potential is not analogous to electrical theory. This is bob's sticking point as well.

 

There are so many corrolaries to take into account in terms of yin and yang, Song.

 

PLEASE FORGET ALL THE THEORIES AND HYPOTHETICAL RAMIFICATIONS FOR NOW.

 

POTENTIAL IS NOT DOING. NOT IN TERMS OF REALITY, NOR IN TERMS OF ADAPTING. POTENTIAL IS NOT A THING.

 

Your big problem is your mind NEVER stops for an instant. Your ideas are running away with you before you can run off with the last idea. One must be able to be silent and still to observe the arising of incipience to transcend changes. Not just once, but as a matter of course without a break in perpetuity until you die. Even in the midst of affairs, inner stillness, open and clearly aware, without bias or inclination, should be the norm.

 

After more than a few years of rigorous discipline of observation of your runaway mental chatter and actual, real, in depth study of the TTC, the buddhist classics and a few alchemical classics to familiarize yourself with the clear description of applications of the basic terms that must be digested in order to arrive at the multifarious usages these words have in the profound sciences of essence and life, you may someday have a proficiency relating the terms to your actual experiences.

 

It is just pure craziness to consider guiding your stabbing in the dark, Song.

 

Potential isn't "as" anything. Please, please stop all this nonsense!

 

The reason I have recently put you on my ignore list is only because your runaway thoughts are absolutely unstable. You cannot learn anything in this condition. The only reason you must stop thinking is because you do not have any ability to do so. I am only wasting your time and you are only wasting my time by contacting me by PM. My responses are useless to you, mon ami.

 

If you are serious about the wonderous mystery, I recommend you leave this forum for a few years and study intently from the basic and alchemic taoist classics without entertaining any speculative thoughts on possible meanings while concurrently developing a 24/7 subtle state of concentration to observe your runaway thoughts until they die forever.

 

That ought to keep you busy for the next 4, 5 or 20 to 30 years.

 

I myself never spoke a word to anybody about anything pertaining to entry into the Way. It took 20 years of a natural disciplined progression of small steps and taking on greater responsibilities in terms of following desires without stepping over the line before I saw my nature. I never once even conceived of the idea of enlightenment. I never knew it was a thing to want. I just followed the mystery as it presented itself to me. I never told or asked anybody anything for all that time.

 

Afterwards, it took five years just to admit what had happened. There was nobody to tell or ask, Song. You take this opportunity to talk to an illuminate for granted. It's not a big deal at all~ it's just that you are in no position to benefit from it.

 

Even after realizing what happened to me, fifteen years had passed before I could begin to talk about it anonymously on another forum for a year before finding the taobums. Now it has been over 20 years since discovering my nature is uncreated, selflessly aware and without cause.

 

It has never been easy to deal with difficult situations, no different than anybody else, only I have no illusions about the unknown outcomes. I simply see potential in everyday ordinary situation without having any ideas about changing anything about the situation as it evolves. As situations evolve, I just adapt to circumstances without bothering to hope. I don't hope for anything, look forward to anything, or even have any concern for any kind of situational outcome.

 

I'm totally free of those concerns. I don't have any concerns in that regard, Song. There is no thing, really and truly.

 

One must be able to dismiss involvement in the midst of situations without hesitating, according to the time— independent of reason. When the pristine awareness refreshes itself, the bright wondrous illumination is just open, It's just Unborn mind.

 

One then accepts one's function and steps forward with hands open; there is nothing really to know about potential. It is just a term to let people realize that there is no reason to have a speculative, anticipatory relationship with reality. Reality is a potential itself so powerfully complete and whole that just abiding in the present without wishing otherwise imbues people with inconceivable virtue.

 

Over a long period of time, one enters the mystery of oneself by just this inherent virtue of the present, perpetually unchanging in the midst of karmic evolution.❤

[Songtsan]

I'll say it again…

 

In terms of essence THERE IS NO PERSON.

 

In terms of potential THERE IS NO CHANGE.

 

Over a long period of time, one enters the mystery of oneself by just this inherent virtue of the present, perpetually unchanging in the midst of karmic evolution.❤

 

 

Actually, I agree with you and I am getting real tired of forever reading about states and not seeing them except in virtual reality - I am further along than you think, as the exhaustion of this tendency of my mind to forever chatter on about these things which were meant to be experienced continues to arise in cycles - I am for the most part quitting the discussion of philosophy and working on just being a student practitioner. A big problem is that my life is chaotic - and so I never have the stability to get into routine. Not that one necessarily needs routine, but it sure as hell makes it easier. My desire to experience these realities first hand would never allow me to stagnate - I am not in competition with you or anyone, but when I hear you/others talk about your experiences, it does tend to drive my desires to 'go there' At this time I am trying to choose a specific set of practices within Taoist circles - including a physical practice - probably zhan zhuang and bagua, pranayama, seated meditation morning and night (MCO oriented), and all-day long meditation of the Complete Reality School type. It will take time for me to formalize these.

 

I think you tend to believe that your path is the only path, but I do disagree - one can come there also through the path of jnana yoga or gnosis. So 'they' say...I believe this is where I am coming from - one starts to actualize what they 'know' by finding the edges of the map by continual exploration in the virtual reality of the mind, until one can no longer expand the envelope - then one kills the mind and starts living in the real world without trying to shape ones course. I think that this is happening with me. However, I am for the most part stopping the theoretical wrangling as you suggest - it is happening as we speak. So this belief I am dropping as much as I can, as quickly as I can. Enough map making and enough of philosophy as mental entertainment.

 

It isn't as if I haven't experienced things beyond maps - I just generally am living in the maps - I consider myself as living in the realms of the djinn most of the time - I am a genie so to speak.

 

I am now trying to practice mindfulness with equanimity as often as possible. I am focusing on technique now so I can get past technique. It is like one who practices a musical instrument all day until it plays itself without them having to use technique anymore. Right now I AM aiming for nonpsychological awareness - trying to kill that mind, stop reifying my oscillating psychology, etc. I want it to happen and desire should lead me there - the desire for enlightenment is a strong tool to getting there.

 

So I am trying for spontaneity without plans, action without a doer, being in each moment without a sense of a person - no past/future, and so on - I know theoretically where I want to be and I am trying to keep myself motivated by hanging out with my sangha - which is you guys...

 

if I give advice - it is usually a passing fancy - I am trying to simply be a student...sometimes it just feels right to try to help others...but that is just ego talking. I even see places where I believe that my advice could help you - save you time/energy if nothing else. However, you are not my problem...I am enough for me to handle.

 

When you view me, please try to leave that thought construct that you have assembled of me behind - try to see me anew each time - just because it would be best for us both. I will be trying to do the same.

 

I like to explain where I am at so that others may criticize me constructively, even though I am creating a thought construct of who/where I am and then subjecting it to communication degradation in the sending process.

 

If I ever poke fun at you personally, it is because I see you as thinking that you somehow know it all - I think you are in a good state for yourself, but that you also think you can speak equally for everyone, as if your advice is good for every person/path - in this I think you are still behind in the times - you know enough for me to respect your sagacity - your advice is really perfect for me at this time - so you I allow to criticize me with glee, for you are the right fit for me - when you blocked me I felt a sense of amusement - I love it when you beat me and whip me. You can be as tough with me as you want - I adore you and no matter what you do to me I am taking it in a good way. I have printed out every post you have made on this site and it is what I am reading right now, along with Joeblasts and TaoMeows stuff - and I am thinking of adding some others.

 

However, you seemingly have a one-size-fits-all mentality often when you speak to most people. I feel you are missing the mark here. Feelings are illusions. Do you feel you have discovered the quintessential answer? Feelings/beliefs are illusions...me even going here is miring my mind in a thicket of thorns. I really do think that you are pretty much spot on for the most part however - just don't get too cocky! Your attainments do not make you omniscient. You are still building thought constructs that are illusions and basing your assessments of people on those mind fabrications, even if you think you are acting from intuition - search deep for the roots and I believe that you will find that your beliefs are rooted in mud at some level. Judging, labeling, categorizing, etc. are mind fabrications. When you create these in regards to whether people are 'ready' or not, or on the enlightening path, are you sure that that is what is best? I am not sure myself, for all I know it could be. Your criticisms (and others) have helped steer me in the right direction far more than any supportive statements anyone have made. If there is a method behind your madness then by all means forget I said anything. Even the Buddha kept labeling people after his supposed entrance into Nirvana. Do we ever stop labeling? Can labeling be anything other than the self-reifying ego-construct?

 

I say that we are both wasting our time with our criticism of anyone (if we were to be entirely selfish), but that they are also useful for people at the same time. If you can constructively cut my beliefs into shreds I applaud you and I would pay you money if I could afford it. I am confused in this area, but I feel that it should work itself out if I forget about it for now and try for reality. So I am stopping debates here basically now.

 

So forget all of this stuff! Its just run around monkey mind reacting to action/reactions...

 

I already know that my mind is an illness for me right now - I am an addict...thinking has always been a great passion and a great pain for me. The agony and the ecstasy. I am trying to go beyond this into reality - this I promise - it is in the works. None of your advice has ever been wasted on me. Now everything is becoming circular however - I don't need you to tell me where I should be aiming - how might be better, although there is plenty of 'how' available out there - so I don't even need that mostly - maybe just some fine tuning....

 

how to leave the mind - how to turn the light around. I simply need an instruction manual - a really literal one if possible...I aim to go beyond techniques...but for now I need the discipline, or else I will run about in habitual tendencies..

 

I know all the whats and whys - (or I think I do) and this is enough to motivate me to do the work. This is what matters. So I need the hows!!!!! You have convinced me of the goal - I have never believed more than now that I should be in that place and felt the desire to go for that field of being than lately.

 

So there is nothing for me to say at this time, and probably nothing for you to say to me either...

 

Unless you can offer a really detailed, literal description of how, complete with examples and perhaps even definitions of key concepts where your definitions might differ from the the norm.

 

As always, I do appreciate you.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Songtsan

[9th]

So I need the hows!!!!!

 

http://youtu.be/DUCSA_MkZ_I

[Songtsan]

 

 

I read a few books by him...but mainly what I need to know are details which I will not have the questions for until I start practicing in earnest...so yeah, no need for me to post here anymore until I have some questions.

[deci belle]

oh Song…❤ No questions are needed. Stop thinking as much as possible, accept your lot, whatever it may be, and observe your own mind in the midst of situations without judging self and others.

 

Of course you cannot leave this forum, even so… until your mouth grows mouldy from lack of use and cobwebs grow over your eyes and ears, how can you hope to forget yourself?

 

Chogyam is brilliant~ that's great 9th!

 

Once I was trapped in a little castle-tower in Beverly Hills with one little window (Rapunzel movie set) heehee!! on a fussy little feature, but no one bothered me the whole time (except to adjust my costume and hang my hair out) so I read the first of many books Trungpa wrote during that week of shooting that were on a shelf in that little room.

 

His early works are quite astringent. His commentary on the Heart Sutra concerning Shunyata, or rather why it does not concern shunyata~ going into length to discuss openness, vulnerability and freedom expressed in the line: gone, gone, beyond gone, gone beyond. Awake. Sobeit.

[Songtsan]

oh Song…❤ No questions are needed. Stop thinking as much as possible, accept your lot, whatever it may be, and observe your own mind in the midst of situations without judging self and others.

 

Of course you cannot leave this forum, even so… until your mouth grows mouldy from lack of use and cobwebs grow over your eyes and ears, how can you hope to forget yourself?

 

Chogyam is brilliant~ that's great 9th!

 

Once I was trapped in a little castle-tower in Beverly Hills with one little window (Rapunzel movie set) heehee!! on a fussy little feature, but no one bothered me the whole time (except to adjust my costume and hang my hair out) so I read the first of many books Trungpa wrote during that week of shooting that were on a shelf in that little room.

 

His early works are quite astringent. His commentary on the Heart Sutra concerning Shunyata, or rather why it does not concern shunyata~ going into length to discuss openness, vulnerability and freedom expressed in the line: gone, gone, beyond gone, gone beyond. Awake. Sobeit.

 

I really like Crazy Wisdom - I see myself as heavily influenced by it. I haven't read Chogyam's book on it though...I forget which ones I read, but it was when I was in prison.

 

Do you know how much I would love to be silent for years? It doesn't seem doable right now given my present circumstances. I did come here (to a significant degree) for socialization purposes originally. I don't feel attracted to most conversation topics- but philosophy, metaphysics, reality etc. are conversational gold to me. However, I really am getting tired of it all. My brain is worn out with contemplating this stuff more and more often, as if it doesn't matter anymore - its been useful to discuss these things as I determine my beliefs and purpose and whatnot, but that phase is largely done. It's becoming weather talk at this point - my version of Facebook. My natural progression, regardless of how many years it takes, is headed somewhere away from talky talk and thinky think. I am good to go!

[deci belle]

It doesn't matter one iota. Forgetting self is the gradual process of self refinement. What is refined? The human mentality, the source of the illusion of self. When self-refinement is finished, there is nothing left of the wandering mind and one returns to the source to witness the Great Wonder.

[3bob]

Deci, no need to mention a "bob" as a side-note to what I hear as your the half-baked and misleading plagiaristic co-opting of various schools teachings...

 

Song, the maps are also part of Dharma teachings (as you well know) I suggest that there is no need to forget them at a relative before-or-after which is seemingly contradictory to timelessness in enlightenment, including what the Buddha described as "beyond the beyond". Btw I'm not a Buddhist but to me all his teachings support that fact. (thus there is no need to destroy a raft, a mind or various tools in one's crossing the river, there is only the need to set them down at the bank of river until one needs to pick them back up for dharmic purposes)

 

Om

Edited January 21, 2014 by 3bob

[Songtsan]

Deci, no need to mention a "bob" as a side-note to what I hear as your the half-baked and misleading plagiaristic co-opting of various schools teachings...

 

Song, the maps are also part of Dharma teachings (as you well know) I suggest that there is no need to forget them at a relative before-or-after which is seemingly contradictory to timelessness in enlightenment, including what the Buddha described as "beyond the beyond". Btw I'm not a Buddhist but to me all his teachings support that fact. (thus there is no need to destroy a raft, a mind or various tools in one's crossing the river, there is only the need to set them down at the bank of river until one needs to pick them back up for dharmic purposes)

 

Om

 

I know that the maps are important - I wouldn't be here if not for them. I don't aim to forget them, in fact I intend to refine them someday once I have gone to the territory more. You can't think your way to non-thinking - even a mantra is a fluctuation of the mind. I have always intended to seek samadhi without a seed object. I have to drop the self in order to do that. The act of dropping the self is a long process. I am generally more addicted to mental enjoyments than I am sensual-physical enjoyments. Part of this is my psychology (disassociative personality disorder, ADHD, schizoaffective disorder bipolar type), and this psyche of mine loves speed and complexity - rapid thinking, and detailed in-depth mentation- like a damned computer. I always believe in training the weak-link in the chain, and one of my great weak links is the inability to not-think. If I don't start really practicing and making that practice formative, I will get really really depressed.

[3bob]

"...You can't think your way to non-thinking - even a mantra is a fluctuation of the mind. I have always intended to seek samadhi without a seed object. I have to drop the self in order to do that..." By Songtsan

 

We can prepare ourselves though, which it surely sounds like you are doing... and in doing so many complications will drop of their own weight -

 

A hand reaching out in truth will be taken by a hand reaching out in response to that truth - for without that helping hand the impasse remains.

Edited January 21, 2014 by 3bob