What is potential in terms of Taoist practices?

[Songtsan]

Songtsan,

 

Post 124 sounds like a fine plan to me. ;-)

 

The T.T.C. chapter I meant to bring up earlier is #25. (translation by John Wu, 4th line down)

"Standing alone without change"

By the way "Silent" is also mentioned in that chapter which I'd say infers stillness just as "without change" does.

I'll look into - I have a translation by Ralph Alan Dale, not sure how good he is....

Apparently certain Buddhist teachings (or at least certain interpretations) do not concur along the lines of this Taoist teaching...

anyway I'm not going to pick-over that endlessly picked-over and dubious debate here, I'm just pointing out the text.

 

Later, Bob

 

I don't know how much things are meant literally, conventionally, metaphorically, etc. in these teachings...sometimes it's best to consider them from all angles..

 

I just can't imagine a state of being that would be 100% the same without even a sheen or hint of something moving within it, through it, on it, or without it. I am, however, open to the possibility. Experiencing directly is obviously paramount. Trust no one but your self in these things. Seek to go where the leaders have gone, seek not to follow in their path.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Songtsan

[Songtsan]

I have the book excerpts section up - needs some work still - trying to find author's names and such for reference....

[3bob]

I'll look into - I have a translation by Ralph Alan Dale, not sure how good he is....

 

I don't know how much things are meant literally, conventionally, metaphorically, etc. in these teachings...sometimes it's best to consider them from all angles..

 

I just can't imagine a state of being that would be 100% the same without even a sheen or hint of something moving within it, through it, on it, or without it. I am, however, open to the possibility. Experiencing directly is obviously paramount. Trust no one but your self in these things. Seek to go where the leaders have gone, seek not to follow in their path.

 

yes, not unlike algebra at times, except the final equation takes something outside of algebra for resolution.

 

Some simple analogies to consider: one can not normally see or feel electromagnetic energy and for unknown tens of thousands of years most of mankind could not imagine such an invisible force... further and I believe a key to consider along the lines of "mystery" is connection, thus the connection of Tao to the One and the One to the Two, etc,, is a major mystery although if one starts much further-out (so to speak) connections are not as difficult to trace - for instance happenings of actions and reactions in the "ten thousand" and the physical world. Another example: all the Jhana's in Buddhism are connected and those are also connected to the "Beyond of the Beyond" which I would also call major mystery.

 

"Trust no one", yet to make a leap of faith (when only methods and self fall short) a hand reaching out in trust is needed.

 

Om

Edited January 23, 2014 by 3bob

[Songtsan]

Great points and great post. I concur.

 

yes, not unlike algebra at times, except the final equation takes something outside of algebra for resolution.

 

Some simple analogies to consider: one can not normally see or feel electromagnetic energy and for unknown tens of thousands of years most of mankind could not imagine such an invisible force

 

Light is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, as well as infrared - which would apply in the sensation-perception of heat. Our sensory-perceptive faculties make visible to us certain aspects of that part of existence, yet not other forces which still affect us - hence invisible forces. What struck me as interesting was that evolution of life has by natural means made it so that senses would develop in more and more complexity as the ages past, Senses that could explore deeper and deeper facets of reality for consciousness. I can imagine one day that life might evolve further senses of some sort, uncovering whole new areas of exploration - not necessarily in the realm of normal reality either. If evolution selects that those individuals with the expanded senses did better in the long run, then there would be a general (fuzzy logic style) trend - linear or curvilinear relationship between depth of reality uncovered and individuals likelihood of passing on its genetics. So in the long run, as our species evolves, I would expect that they would become more and more aware, in a totality of ways, of the fabric of existence.

... further and I believe a key to consider along the lines of "mystery" is connection, thus the connection of Tao to the One and the One to the Two, etc,, is a major mystery although if one starts much further-out (so to speak) connections are not as difficult to trace - for instance happenings of actions and reactions in the "ten thousand" and the physical world. Another example: all the Jhana's in Buddhism are connected and those are also connected to the "Beyond of the Beyond" which I would also call major mystery.

 

I really like this thought

"Trust no one", yet to make a leap of faith (when only methods and self fall short) a hand reaching out in trust is needed.

 

I am covered - I usually reach out to the shakti or the djinn or whatever strange and interesting/personality which watches through my perceptive facilities is. This mostly in times of apathy, hopelessness, abject states of various description, or other such things. And yes I would also reach a hand out to my peeps as well - of which I consider TTB folks also.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Songtsan

[joeblast]

...not that the value of something that makes sense isn't true even if its a story or if it comes from the mouth of a fabulist - like I said, I don't care if a teaching comes from a demon if its true and it works. of course, even demons can do good deeds, but at the same time, you'd better know the underlying fundamentals well enough to determine compatibility, legitimacy, efficacy...its either that or you're placing your trust in a demon, haha

 

I will look for this thing that doesn't move! I accept that challenge. Just figure out how to turn the light around, which I dont think I can really differentiate all that much between that and focusing the awareness at the niwan. Settle all of the physical rhythms and when muscle memory is sufficient, the inertia carries forth and more of the conscious awareness gets put into turning the light around...which, once you build that habit-energy, becomes the mythically simple 'sitting peacefully.' I am not attached to being right, but seeing is believing with me on this one. and the result manifests as a function of the rigor of your efforts, put forth the effort and verify the result for yourself! It shouldn't matter anyways, because by the time I were to see that, my mind should have dwindled away for most of the day and there would only be true seeing. I have had the thought that you might be saying that the universe moves around awareness, and that awareness is not a product of the universe - so that awareness doesn't move. I will see. All movement occurs relative to something else, so if there was a place where there was only one thing and one thing only, then it would have to be still. Your awareness...your qi...go where directed. Not the entirety, of course...and that is why not to pay attention to arising phenomena during meditation, because it brings the consciousness away from that which is producing the phenomena in the first place. That habit energy, produced by diligence and correct procedure, guarded and cultivated like the mythical dragon guards its treasures.

 

"True emptiness exists when the mind is clear and all forms have disappeared. Externally, there are no objects. Internally, there is no mind. There is only emptiness. In this state, even emptiness does not exist. In true emptiness there is no space, no desire, no will; there are no appearances, no thoughts. All realms of existence are dissolved. In absolute stillness there is no self and no other. There is only Earlier Heaven in its undifferentiated whole."

~ Eva Wong, from Cultivating Stillness

 

The above sounds like a perception attainment to me - but I will see. Put in the work and you shall. In a way, it is perception, but it is also much more, because it requires the habit-energy...without it there isnt a hundredth the depth.

 

But from a rational point of view, ultimate stillness sounds far fetched, as the whole universe is always moving from the largest nebula to the smallest particle of an atom. If one has the view that things have continuity in time. As above so below...if you are speaking metaphorically or in some twilight language, then that is fine. Even space moves. It expands and contracts with the amount of matter - in fact it is directly tied to matter - the one wouldn't exist without the other. I have studied too much physics to hold an entirely different belief yet. I aim to ultimately see how the laws of the universe (physical, mental, spiritual) coincide. I can see how one could have the view that there are no things, because each moment is a reality unto itself, and the idea of thing-ness is ultimately untrue - there is only this, then there is 'something else' new. In that case I accept that every 'thing' is still. So perhaps both are true based on stance.

Consider the 3+1 spacetime...what do you think of string theory's 11 dimensions? Sometimes people ask what the other dimensions are for - if the 3+1 are embedded into a higher spacetime framework, what of the movement of "everything" - how far are we to take that context? And one other...idea...what of "dimensionless" quantities...why is it that someone cultivated enough can pick up the phone and move your energy without so much as a word?

 

Perhaps ultimately, neither stillness nor movement exists - it's something else entirely.

 

It's not that I don't believe you, for I have already accepted that there is a possibility that there is something that doesn't move since you say so - it's that I still believe myself too. I am in no hurry. The best belief is probably no belief.

 

Also, it would be unfair of you to expect that if I have chosen to pursue a Taoist practice, that I wouldn't spend some time studying the basics - hence I will be purchasing various works that are mentioned by you and others.

 

I am still practicing the 24/7 style meditation, though it still needs tweaking..I haven't been able to hold the intent 24 hours a day yet, but for at least 4-6 I am breaking old patterns...I used to do this for a little over a year - Thich Nhat Hanh style - basic mindfulness meditation...your style is very similar, although I am still reading descriptions of it.

 

Here is something that I am wondering though - can we ever really trust that that which we know (on any level of knowing that you can experience) is actually ultimately true and not just a translation and thus an imperfect reflection of true unknowable reality? Does reality even know itself? Of course we must assert things at some level to communicate. I just think its best to always hold a sliver of acceptance that that which we think/believe/feel/intuit/perceive/hear/etc. we know -, from that true seeing that you talk about to the statements of Gods, Buddhas, Immortals, and so on - might not be it at all - this will preclude one from building barriers to ultimate truth (if it can be known at all). hahaha, you said "real"

 

This will not influence my ability to practice in any event, so it doesn't matter for our purposes.

 

"Nothing doesn't even exist" - I never said it did - I was using conventionalese.

so watcha want

 

hmmm, a ground state?

[Songtsan]

so watcha want

 

hmmm, a ground state?

 

Fucking excellent post as usual. You help motivate me big time!

 

I may respond some later on this if it seems educational somehow or other for me to pry further, but I believe what you are saying.

 

so get into ground state and send consciousness back on itself, correct? Negatively attenuate all other perceptions too, right?

Edited January 23, 2014 by Songtsan

[3bob]

more ponderings on connections:

 

T.T.C. chapter 43: "Only nothing can enter into no-space", I understand said process taking place through connections - and at the connections transformations take place. Thus The Tao is connected to the One through transformation although the Tao still remains on its side of the transformer. Also the One returns to the Tao through connection and transformation but then it is no more (in that particular cosmic cycle) or transformed to no-thing since the Tao is source. Using the same analogy but with different terms the "Absolute" is connected to the relative through transformation yet it always remains the Absolute. (or it never runs out of being the Absolute just as the Tao never runs out of being the Tao)

 

I'd also add that the potentials (so to speak) in the saying, "Only nothing can enter into no-space" match up, or one might also use the term synchronize.

Edited January 24, 2014 by 3bob

[Songtsan]

more ponderings on connections:

 

T.T.C. chapter 43: "Only nothing can enter into no-space", I understand said process taking place through connections - and at the connections transformations take place. Thus The Tao is connected to the One through transformation although the Tao still remains on its side of the transformer. Also the One returns to the Tao through connection and transformation but then it is no more (in that particular cosmic cycle) or transformed to no-thing since the Tao is source. Using the same analogy but with different terms the "Absolute" is connected to the relative through transformation yet it always remains the Absolute. (or it never runs out of being the Absolute just as the Tao never runs out of being the Tao)

 

I'd also add that the potentials (so to speak) in the saying, "Only nothing can enter into no-space" match up, or one might also use the term synchronize.

 

I will have to study this....

[3bob]

"...But from a rational point of view, ultimate stillness sounds far fetched, as the whole universe is always moving from the largest nebula to the smallest particle of an atom. If one has the view that things have continuity in time. As above so below...if you are speaking metaphorically or in some twilight language, then that is fine. Even space moves. It expands and contracts with the amount of matter - in fact it is directly tied to matter - the one wouldn't exist without the other. I have studied too much physics to hold an entirely different belief yet. I aim to ultimately see how the laws of the universe (physical, mental, spiritual) coincide. I can see how one could have the view that there are no things, because each moment is a reality unto itself, and the idea of thing-ness is ultimately untrue - there is only this, then there is 'something else' new. In that case I accept that every 'thing' is still. So perhaps both are true based on stance" By Songtsan

 

Is the soundlessness between notes struck on piano keys stillness?

 

Is the soundlessness between thoughts churning in mind stillness?

 

If so how fast does one have to slow down to catch up to stillness and remain so?

[Songtsan]

"...But from a rational point of view, ultimate stillness sounds far fetched, as the whole universe is always moving from the largest nebula to the smallest particle of an atom. If one has the view that things have continuity in time. As above so below...if you are speaking metaphorically or in some twilight language, then that is fine. Even space moves. It expands and contracts with the amount of matter - in fact it is directly tied to matter - the one wouldn't exist without the other. I have studied too much physics to hold an entirely different belief yet. I aim to ultimately see how the laws of the universe (physical, mental, spiritual) coincide. I can see how one could have the view that there are no things, because each moment is a reality unto itself, and the idea of thing-ness is ultimately untrue - there is only this, then there is 'something else' new. In that case I accept that every 'thing' is still. So perhaps both are true based on stance" By Songtsan

 

Is the soundlessness between notes struck on piano keys stillness?

 

Is the soundlessness between thoughts churning in mind stillness?

 

If so how fast does one have to slow down to catch up to stillness and remain so?

 

No - there is always stuff going on in the brain - no complete silence, even if you are in a sensory deprivation tank, there are still energy fluctuations going on in the auditory parts of the brain. However, if one were in an absorption state, it is possible that there would be relative stillness of one vibration occurring over and over...but there would still be wave-like activities going on, as the universe works on wave/particle action. If one is observing soundlessness, then there is soundlessness and the observer - two things. Time would have to stop to have stillness, but then awareness would no longer function I imagine.

 

I can prove nothing however These are just ideas anyways...'stillness' of ideas would be fun to experience though.....I think everything works on vibratory levels, and vibration indicates waves. One could be aware of what appears to be stillness, but I can't imagine it would be some kind of flat line...

[3bob]

Agreed that stuff is going on in brain and mind, but teachings of the "Self" or Brahman point to the realizable reality that we are not really brain or mind. Also light is normally thought of traveling here and there in space and time but what if it turned around and traveled back inside itself, what then of light, space and time?

[Songtsan]

Agreed that stuff is going on in brain and mind, but teachings of the "Self" or Brahman point to the realizable reality that we are not really brain or mind. Also light is normally thought of traveling here and there in space and time but what if it turned around and traveled back inside itself, what then of light, space and time?

 

hmmm...

 

circles.

[3bob]

Well wouldn't even that still be going around in circles of light thus not exactly going inside itself? (like still going around in circles on the Tibetan Wheel of Life)

 

add in: Buddha nature does not run out of being Buddha nature within the Wheel of Life - thus the depictions of Buddha in all the realms, that same nature is not bound while It also stands transcendent outside of the inside of the wheel.... that's my take anyway.

Edited January 26, 2014 by 3bob