Zhan Zhuang and Da Cheng Chuan

[Ryan McCoole]

After buying Master Lam Kam Chuen's book The Way of Energy last year, I have been doing the "standing like a tree" excercise everyday for about 30 minutes (15 morning, 15 in the evening). The other foundational positions of Zhan Zhuang are "Standing in the Stream", "Holding the ball infront of your face" and others.

 

I am thinking of upping my times (15 minutes without pain or fatigue is already here for me) and then adding more excercises during the day

 

Anyone have any experience with there Zhan Zhuang practice? Here's a basic wiki on it:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

 

In Dao ,

 

-Ryan McCoole-

[buddabubba]

Yes.

 

I first came across Standing in William Cohens excellent book, The Way of Qigong, years ago, and it has become one of the two most important training methods for me. The other being zazen or sitting. I also practice in the morning and evening, as well as randomly throughout the day, whenever I am in a situation that requires me to stand for any length of time, like waiting in line at the bank.

 

 

The Four Virtues of being Human.

 

Master Lying, Sitting, Standing, and Walking.

 

[Cameron]

Yes.

 

I first came across Standing in William Cohens excellent book, The Way of Qigong, years ago, and it has become one of the two most important training methods for me. The other being zazen or sitting. I also practice in the morning and evening, as well as randomly throughout the day, whenever I am in a situation that requires me to stand for any length of time, like waiting in line at the bank.

The Four Virtues of being Human.

 

Master Lying, Sitting, Standing, and Walking.

 

 

 

It's Ken Cohen-not William. I agree it is a great practice.

[Ryan McCoole]

Yes.

 

I first came across Standing in William Cohens excellent book, The Way of Qigong, years ago, and it has become one of the two most important training methods for me. The other being zazen or sitting. I also practice in the morning and evening, as well as randomly throughout the day, whenever I am in a situation that requires me to stand for any length of time, like waiting in line at the bank.

The Four Virtues of being Human.

 

Master Lying, Sitting, Standing, and Walking.

 

 

Yes! I also found that "standing like a tree" i.e. "holding the ball" has taught me so much about my body, mental responses, and spiritual energy. I felt so much pain I couldn;t even hold it for 10 munites, but I kept having patience, not "fighting" through the pain, but rather calmly finding my center and *experiencing* it to its fullest...then letting it go.

 

Lam Kam in his other book "Way of Power" says that top become proficient in Zhan Zhuang, you have to fight through fear, anxiety, impatience, nerve impulse to move, and mental wandering. I am only now seeing how endless and beautiful and challenging this path is.

 

I like the zazen as well. I also practice the standing and breathing through my Dan Tien, just letting this happen around me and merging into them...

[buddabubba]

It's Ken Cohen-not William.

 

Yes, that's right. Thanks Cameron, had a brain cramp.

[Cameron]

hehe..he is one of my teacher's so I notice. Glad you liked his book.

[buddabubba]

I learned a great deal from it. I still pick it back up from time to time, though my copy is about worn out.

 

He is one of your teachers? Do you know him personally then? Wow, that would be awesome.

[buddabubba]

I think exploring all the interrelationships between different schools of thought is neat. In regards to Standing and the martial arts, the neatest (and most personally relevent) is the use of Standing in Wing Chun kung fu.

 

The first form of the system is know as Siu Lim Dao or Little Idea Way or sometimes the Way of Little Thought.

It is a rarity among martial arts forms in that the entire form is practiced from a single stance (yee jee kim yung ma) without externally moving the body except for the arms, and ideally takes twenty minutes or longer to perform.

[Eric23]

I bought the same book and am standing like a tree on about the same schedule as you. 2 x15 minutes. I also get in one session of the 8 Treasures as given in Chuen's book. So far I have noticed a noticible increase in energy. Like you, I'm contemplating when to add an additional form. I find standing wuji to be a very agreeable meditation form as well.

[bd2]

Because of my lack of discipline I do the excercise "embracing the tree" while watching TV.

[林愛偉]

I think exploring all the interrelationships between different schools of thought is neat. In regards to Standing and the martial arts, the neatest (and most personally relevent) is the use of Standing in Wing Chun kung fu.

 

The first form of the system is know as Siu Lim Dao or Little Idea Way or sometimes the Way of Little Thought.

It is a rarity among martial arts forms in that the entire form is practiced from a single stance (yee jee kim yung ma) without externally moving the body except for the arms, and ideally takes twenty minutes or longer to perform.

 

 

A choice in practicing it for 20 minutes. For testing it would be done no less than 45 minutes, but can be longer.

The only movement in the stance during Siu Lim Dao -cantonese (Xiao Nian Tou- mandarin) is in the hips to the kness, kness to the ankles, and ankles to the bottom of the feet to the floor. A very slight/subtle press to activate and extend one's root further into the floor

Remember, the spine must pull in two directions, the kness are pressing into the ankles, not inwards; but are only pointing inwards along with the toes. Weight is pressed upon the entire foot, which allows the energy to evenly, without obstruction, flow down through the foot.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

 

 

P.S.- 小念头= Xiao Nian Tou/Siu Lim Dao: Form of Little "Idea", "Thought"... can also be translated as Form of Effortlessness because of the simplicity of its movements, physical relaxation, and concentration.

 

 

In every step, step as though you are one meter into the ground or more, but you step as though there are clouds under your feet. That means your feet are soft ..there would be no heaviness present during the step, no abrupt shaking in the body and eyes from stepping. You gracefully glide...builds up speed, root and enhances the movement of energy in the body. Rememeber to keep the head pulling up and tail bone pulling down..

Edited June 28, 2007 by 林愛偉

[buddabubba]

林愛偉,

 

Thank you for the info on the internal movement.

 

Would you elaborate on the timings of the jing release movements? Is the hip/knee/ankle movement always in time to the extension/contraction of the arm?

 

Also, when performing for 45 min, or more, do you consider the first section to be getting slower, or all three?

[林愛偉]

林愛偉,

 

Thank you for the info on the internal movement.

 

Would you elaborate on the timings of the jing release movements? Is the hip/knee/ankle movement always in time to the extension/contraction of the arm?

 

Also, when performing for 45 min, or more, do you consider the first section to be getting slower, or all three?

 

 

Fa Jing cultivation can be an option, and mostly it is released upon the extention of the technique in the form practice.

 

For the knees and arm connection; You can pay attention to the difference in pressure in the hip to the bottom of the foot to the floor on the arm extention. It is subtle at first, but with more practice of this awareness you notice it big time when in contact in Chi Sau, Luk Sau, or connecting in off hand combat. It makes a big difference in your practice and makes for more ..."mindfulness" there's that word again hahaha... of the whole; mind, body and energy as the result.

The joints of the body will be always connected, so be sure not to fully extend the arms and legs, or twist the spine and shoulders unless the hips open and close with the twisting.. hehe And it is always.

 

With the form, I keep it one speed during the time of practice. It doesn't really matter if you do one part slower or not, it is your preference. If on one time you feel to make the Tan sau- Jut Sau- Wu Sau- Fook Sau

slower than the rest of the form, then it would be good to keep the whole form that speed. Doing one part slower and the rest a different speed doesn't enhance your practice or knowledge of the form. If they are done in good concentration, you will gain great benefits.

 

I do notice some people get slower in the beginning and faster towards the end. It is because of the technicality of the movements and unsureness of the position and transition. But once the transition is understood, the movements become smoother, and should be brought up to par without distinction of its myriad transition or simplicity.

 

Peace and Happiness..

 

Aiwei

Edited June 29, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Treena]

A choice in practicing it for 20 minutes. For testing it would be done no less than 45 minutes, but can be longer.

The only movement in the stance during Siu Lim Dao -cantonese (Xiao Nian Tou- mandarin) is in the hips to the kness, kness to the ankles, and ankles to the bottom of the feet to the floor. A very slight/subtle press to activate and extend one's root further into the floor

Remember, the spine must pull in two directions, the kness are pressing into the ankles, not inwards; but are only pointing inwards along with the toes. Weight is pressed upon the entire foot, which allows the energy to evenly, without obstruction, flow down through the foot.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

P.S.- ???= Xiao Nian Tou/Siu Lim Dao: Form of Little "Idea", "Thought"... can also be translated as Form of Effortlessness because of the simplicity of its movements, physical relaxation, and concentration.

In every step, step as though you are one meter into the ground or more, but you step as though there are clouds under your feet. That means your feet are soft ..there would be no heaviness present during the step, no abrupt shaking in the body and eyes from stepping. You gracefully glide...builds up speed, root and enhances the movement of energy in the body. Rememeber to keep the head pulling up and tail bone pulling down..

 

Thanks for the excellent guidance.

 

When I started (I call it Yi-Quan, I-Chuan standing exercises) hard hard hard. Had a dream signifying how important it was to practice. Persistence is crucial. The results very concrete. The connection to heaven and earth. The solid movement of energy. It has everything to do with manifesting that same solid energy in your martial arts, in your energy healing.

[林愛偉]

Thanks for the excellent guidance.

 

When I started (I call it Yi-Quan, I-Chuan standing exercises) hard hard hard. Had a dream signifying how important it was to practice. Persistence is crucial. The results very concrete. The connection to heaven and earth. The solid movement of energy. It has everything to do with manifesting that same solid energy in your martial arts, in your energy healing.

 

 

Sincere practice produces good results.

 

Good stuff.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[buddabubba]

林愛偉,

 

Thank you, again. I'm totally with you on the body unity concept.

 

I am a little confused on one point.

 

I sense that you know what you are talking about, but all my wing chun sifu's and all the research I've done myself have led me to believe that the first section (the tans and fooks) should be performed very slowly in order to build/sense the qi, and that the other two sections are performed more quickly to learn how to release it.

 

Is this just a common fallacy? Because I've seen videos of Yip Man performing it more or less so, too. Did I miss something? Can you go more in depth on the transition, please?

 

(I have mostly followed the Augustine Fong lineage).

[林愛偉]

林愛偉,

 

Thank you, again. I'm totally with you on the body unity concept.

 

I am a little confused on one point.

 

I sense that you know what you are talking about, but all my wing chun sifu's and all the research I've done myself have led me to believe that the first section (the tans and fooks) should be performed very slowly in order to build/sense the qi, and that the other two sections are performed more quickly to learn how to release it.

 

Is this just a common fallacy? Because I've seen videos of Yip Man performing it more or less so, too. Did I miss something? Can you go more in depth on the transition, please?

 

(I have mostly followed the Augustine Fong lineage).

 

 

The section of the Tan Sau transition to Wu Sau and Fook Sau is taught slow for developing qi, yes, but that is not really a necessary thing. I believe it was something added in there to see the dedication of the student. Yip Man did it slow, and his students the same. There is concentration to be done in it. I do not do it slow as they do.

I would safely say it is preference, because developing and sensing qi is done throughout the whole form. All techniques have their characteristics, and can be cultivated evenly as the "San Bai Fut" section of tan and fook.

Even in practicing the form, speed is the enemy. I am sure you know that. Learning to release energy would really be in application when understanding distancing, and when you have an opposing force you have to redirect.

It will be different between lineages. Understanding things sometimes takes us off the usual method the elders taught..but they are elders because they also went off the usual traditions they were taught..but stayed with the foundation of their teachings.

I know you do not need to practice any part of the form too slow and then fast. It makes no difference, because it is the mind. Slow is best for practice, speed is best in combat.

 

There seems to be a fixed manner of teaching Wing Chun these days and it stems from those saying what Yip Man taught is tradition and it should stay that way.

It is best to stick to traditional foundation, but evolve in personal cultivation.

 

My lineage is of Jiu Wan, Jason Lau, Alan Goldberg. Also from Yip Man, Moy Yat, and Alan Goldberg.

I take it you live in Arizona?

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

[Cameron]

I learned a great deal from it. I still pick it back up from time to time, though my copy is about worn out.

 

He is one of your teachers? Do you know him personally then? Wow, that would be awesome.

 

 

I have met him twice and doing a workshop with him in a few months on Taoist Qigong.

[Ryan McCoole]

[林愛偉]

[Eric23]

[林愛偉]

I like the eight treasures. Being a total novice it seems like a good starting point. I like that the movement adds a nice counterbalance to the stillness of Zhan Zhuang.

 

Let me add my thanks to Aiwei, very good pointers that will help along the way. BTW, I'm from Arizona.

 

 

Glad the tips can work. It changes the idea of low stances equaling stronger root. The low stances really benefit leg muscles and stamina. The more softer mannerisms stimulate the mind better, or shold I say, in a more deeper manner. I had my 90 pound friend, about 6 yrs ago, test two well built Karate men try to pick her up at the same tmie, one on the left and right. They couldn't. Her stance was bent slightly, breath down to her root. She is about 5 feet tall.

 

I asked the Arizona question because Augustine Fong, I believe, is stationed out there.

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[740157]

I had my 90 pound friend, about 6 yrs ago, test two well built Karate men try to pick her up at the same tmie, one on the left and right. They couldn't. Her stance was bent slightly, breath down to her root. She is about 5 feet tall.

 

I actually was taught something similar to that, but could never quite master it. But a while later, I went to visit my friend; a skinny 17yr old, aprox. 5'5" and about 110lbs. I was demonstrating the "Unbendable Arm" method I had learned in my Gung Fu training, and tried teaching her. She could do it immediately without any problem, so I decided to tell her about the method of the unliftable self... But her being a Catholic(as I am also) I figured that like most other Catholics that I know, that she wouldn't take to the idea of Qi very easily. So I worded it in a way that was less "mystical".

So I had her sister and I stand on either side of her, and we lifted her up right away without any problem. We lifted her a good foot off the ground and then let her back down. Then I had her focus really hard; focusing on visualising that she was glued to the earth, and that all her weight was being pulled and attached to the core of the Earth. I'm not sure how much of what I gave her for suggestions to visualise she actually applied, but sure enough, dispite all the effort her sister and I put behind lifting her up, we couldn't get her off the ground any more than prehaps 1cm.

I am so amazed at how she doesn't even understand the basics of QiGong, but can still do these things better than I can...

Edited June 29, 2007 by 740157

[林愛偉]

I actually was taught something similar to that, but could never quite master it. But a while later, I went to visit my friend; a skinny 17yr old, aprox. 5'5" and about 110lbs. I was demonstrating the "Unbendable Arm" method I had learned in my Gung Fu training, and tried teaching her. She could do it immediately without any problem, so I decided to tell her about the method of the unliftable self... But her being a Catholic(as I am also) I figured that like most other Catholics that I know, that she wouldn't take to the idea of Qi very easily. So I worded it in a way that was less "mystical".

So I had her sister and I stand on either side of her, and we lifted her up right away without any problem. We lifted her a good foot off the ground and then let her back down. Then I had her focus really hard; focusing on visualising that she was glued to the earth, and that all her weight was being pulled and attached to the core of the Earth. I'm not sure how much of what I gave her for suggestions to visualise she actually applied, but sure enough, dispite all the effort her sister and I put behind lifting her up, we couldn't get her off the ground any more than prehaps 1cm.

I am so amazed at how she doesn't even understand the basics of QiGong, but can still do these things better than I can...

 

 

Excellent!!

 

THis stance is basic in Zhan Zhuang.. but is not really taught as something one should steadily practice.. which I don't know why.. atleast I haven't seen many teachers teaching it that way.

 

In any case, the benefits help the joints, and organs...and it prevents one frmo actually falling to the floor when tripping. It also provides a good solid.. and piercing hit when hitting something... just be careful when hitting someone, a friend or "enemy".

 

Peace,

Aiwei

[740157]

Excellent!!

 

THis stance is basic in Zhan Zhuang.. but is not really taught as something one should steadily practice.. which I don't know why.. atleast I haven't seen many teachers teaching it that way.

 

In any case, the benefits help the joints, and organs...and it prevents one frmo actually falling to the floor when tripping. It also provides a good solid.. and piercing hit when hitting something... just be careful when hitting someone, a friend or "enemy".

 

Peace,

Aiwei

I'm going to try my best to pick the practice of Zhan Zhuang back up. My biggest problem is lack of disipline to keep going. I'll take up the stance, and stand there trying to clear my mind... 5 minutes later a random thought comes to mind about something that might be fun to do, so I'll forget the rest of my practise and go goof off for a while and then not remember about Zhan Zhuang again until maybe a few days later. >.<

I'm so easily distracted; the longest I've held a period of meditation was 45 minutes... but the fact that I could measure it may take away from the underlying quality of the meditation. >_<