Prajna is 3-fold

[Simple_Jack]

Loppon Malcolm clarified the role of intellectual learning in Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen & Mahamudra on the DW forum:

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=100&p=208783#p208783

 

All Buddhists teachings have three prajñās: the prajñā of hearing, when one listens to the teachings and understands them intellectually; the prajñā of reflection, when one integrates what one has understood; and the prajñā of meditation, where the meaning one has gathered through hearing and reflection is brought to realization.

To claim that we are not meant to intellectually understand the path does not correspond with my education and training. The Tantra of the Union of the Sun and Moon states:

• Prajñā is three-fold: the prajñā of hearing severs external reification; the prajñā of reflection severs internal reification; and the prajñā of meditation severs secret reification.

Vimalamitra states:

• The characteristics of prajñā:
  The characteristic of the prajñā of hearing is a great quantity listening and understanding words without interpolation.
  The characteristic of reflection is investigating the words and meanings of the mind, and giving explanations.
  The characteristic of meditation is distancing oneself from afflictions through meditation.

We should pay respect to intellectual learning, not dismiss it....

 

There are two kinds of prajñā, contaminated, and pure. The former exists in common practitioners, the latter in realized practitioners.

[Jeff]

I agree that we should pay respect to intellectual learning, but prajñā of meditation is the direct realization of wisdom. Meaning learned from hearing, reading books and intellectual reflection is subject to the perceptions of the mind. As you stated above, one must sever (or step beyond) the mental "contamination".

[C T]

Contaminated prajna? Never heard that before.

 

Wisdom is wisdom. If there is contamination, its not wisdom.

 

I have heard of relative and absolute prajna, but relative in this instance does not imply that the process of moving from ordinary to supreme is somehow suffused with taints and therefore inferior. It makes no sense to see it this way.

[Aetherous]

Just from my minor learning, this seems similar to the two aspects of dharma: 1) dharma of scripture, and 2) dharma of realization.

Hearing and reflection would both be under scripture, which along with discipline/practice/wisdom would lead to the dharma of realization or basically knowing what's in the scriptures for yourself without necessarily reading them first. True understanding. One aspect of Dharma is not considered better than the other.

Also, wisdom is defined precisely as the realization of Buddhahood as being: 1) unconditioned/unborn/unending 2) peaceful spontaneous presence in all beings 3) and self-aware or not realized because of any external causes. So at least in the way I've been taught, this is how wisdom would be threefold. Not saying this is the right way...it's just one way this stuff has been taught.

 

edit: oh yeah, and then there are the two perfections or two wisdoms of Buddha 1) know the true nature of all things nonconceptually, 2) total omniscience.

This stuff is complicated man...I should probably not even say anything lol.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Aetherous

[RongzomFan]

Intellectual understanding is important for the practice side.

 

But the "view" side is only dependent on direct introduction.

Edited January 7, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

Wisdom is wisdom. If there is contamination, its not wisdom.

 

You're probably thinking of jnana/yeshe in this case, which is distinguished from prajna/sherab:

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Wisdom

 

Jñana/Yeshe

Ringu Tulku Rinpoche says:

• "In the word ཡེ་ཤེས་, yeshe, ཡེ་, yé is short for ཡེ་ནས་, yé né, which means ‘right from the beginning’ or ‘primordially’. Some people translate it as ‘pristine’ or 'pure', meaning that it is untouched and unstained, and has been there all the time. It is the way it always was. So yeshe is discovered with ཤེས་རབ་, sherab. Yeshe is understood by sherab, or approached by sherab."

The Difference Between Sherab and Yeshe

Ringu Tulku Rinpoche says:

 

• "The difference between sherab and yeshe is very subtle and slight. But I think we can say that yeshe is the most natural state of our awareness or consciousness, which is unstained, uncontrived and completely ordinary. It is there all the time, but we don’t recognize it. It is sherab that brings about the recognition, but of course they are not two separate things."

[C T]

"they are not two separate things". Ringu Tulku

 

i still dont get how prajna can be contaminated.

[RongzomFan]

Namdrol said many times that the view is only dependent on direct introduction.

 

He must be talking about the practice side i.e. dark retreat, dream yoga, phowa etc.

Edited January 8, 2014 by RongzomFan

[C T]

Malcolm Namdrol is fervently repairing samaya now. He has not gone beyond the second-fold, has he? Perhaps after his second 3 yr retreat he might.

[asunthatneversets]

My Drikung Kagyu Lama says that intellectual capacity is directly related to wisdom, and that those who are of high intellectual acumen (even in other areas such as science and so on) were most likely practitioners in another life. He says for this reason, refining our understanding of the teaching even in an intellectual way, is directly related to awakened wisdom and that a good understanding of the teachings is an imperative supplement to our practice.

Jean-Luc Achard also says that an intellectual understanding of the teachings [bsam rig] is important, and that it is considered one type of rigpa (among 14 others) according to the Bön.

 

He defines it here:

 

"bSam-rig (Knowing Discernment) which is the knowledge you generate when you study and get experiences of the teachings (it is a fluctuating phenomenon according to the capacities of the individual; the more you study correctly, the more you Knowing Discernement is developed);"

 

Dudjom Rinpoche also states that a refined intellect in regards to the teaching is very important:
"Generally speaking, for those who have set out upon the path of Dharma, the source of all learning lies in reading and writing, so training in these disciplines is emphasized from an early age. Then one should go on to study something of the general sciences and put great effort into the study and contemplation of the uncommon principles of sutra and mantra and so on, until reaching a good understanding of the key points, regardless of how long it takes."

[RongzomFan]

Malcolm Namdrol is fervently repairing samaya now. He has not gone beyond the second-fold, has he?

 

What are you talking about?

[asunthatneversets]

Malcolm Namdrol is fervently repairing samaya now. He has not gone beyond the second-fold, has he? Perhaps after his second 3 yr retreat he might.

 

Not trying to promote gossip, but where did you read he is fervently repairing samaya?

Edited January 8, 2014 by asunthatneversets

[RongzomFan]

Not trying to promote gossip, but where did you read he is fervently repairing samaya?

 

Malcolm breaking samaya is like the rotation of the earth spinning in the opposite direction.

 

What a rubbish accusation by CT

[C T]

Not accusing him of breaking samaya. They dont have to be broken to be repaired you know?

 

We periodically take stock of past actions and strengthen vows where and when needed. That is a form of mending of samayas. Thats what Malcolm had done based on what he recently wrote on DW.

 

Its a good practice, and one which serious tantric students do all the time.

 

But if its still being observed as part of one's practice, one has not progressed on to the third-fold. Thats what i was asking.

 

Me, im still at below one.

 

Chill out guys.

Edited January 8, 2014 by C T

[RongzomFan]

You are losing me on this second-fold, third fold shit.

[C T]

You are losing me on this second-fold, third fold shit.

Did you not read the topic title?

[RongzomFan]

Did you not read the topic title?

 

Obviously not.

[C T]

Obviously not.

Ah, ok then.

[Anderson]

"bSam-rig (Knowing Discernment) which is the knowledge you generate when you study and get experiences of the teachings (it is a fluctuating phenomenon according to the capacities of the individual; the more you study correctly, the more you Knowing Discernement is developed);"

 

 

In your opinion do you think it possible that , having received introduction and practised a little, a practitioner while reading texts like, Kunjed Gyalpo, Marvelous Primordial State, or other descriptive pity instructions to have flashes of rigpa while reading, BASED on that reading ?

[RongzomFan]

In your opinion do you think it possible that , having received introduction and practised a little, a practitioner while reading texts like, Kunjed Gyalpo, Marvelous Primordial State, or other descriptive pity instructions to have flashes of rigpa while reading, BASED on that reading ?

 

 

Relying on reading text is a sutrayana approach, like Zen.

 

And just because you recognize unfabricated presence, doesn't make you a Dzogchenpa, because for us that is just day 1.

Edited January 8, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Simple_Jack]

"they are not two separate things". Ringu Tulku

 

i still dont get how prajna can be contaminated.

 

Prajna is one of five faculties i.e. indriyas [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-e], in the 37 factors of awakening common to both Hinayana and Mahayana, which are then repeated as the 5 strengths that are conducive to the path of awakening. They are expressed in their contaminated form by a deluded sentient being on the mundane path; while being expressed in their pure form by an individual established on the supra-mundane path of aryas. The abhidharma-kosha lists 22 indriyas [http://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/akb-ch-2-web.pdf], with 15-22 being the indriyas of nirvana.

[Simple_Jack]

http://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/akb-ch-2-web.pdf

 

"...[The 5 anusayas which are wrong view (drsti) are defiled understanding (klista-prajna). PSP:

―Discrimination with respect to that same object, whether it is generated correctly, incorrectly, or otherwise."

http://books.google.com/books?id=m2tVr8cmIS0C&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=klistaprajna&source=bl&ots=aVJJqGf385&sig=q41C7fs5rZnXxMfDXmvxhO0UOJI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jXDQUq7rCc7gsASrwYDwCw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=klistaprajna&f=false

Klistaprajna/afflicted intelligence/shes rab nyon mongs pa can

[Simple_Jack]

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/31.3-Anusaya.-piya.pdf

 

The Abhidhammattha, sangaha says "The latent dispositions (anusaya) are defilements which 'lie along with' (anusenti) the mental process to which they belong, rising to the surface as obsessions whenever they meet with suitable conditions"...The term "latent dispositions" highlights the fact that the defilements are liable to arise so long as they have not been eradicated by the supramundane paths...The seven latent tendencies are (1) the latent tendency of sensual lust; (2) the latent tendency of aversion; (3) the latent tendency of conceit; (4) the latent tendency of views; (5) the latent tendency of doubt; (6) the latent tendency of lust for existence; (7) the latent tendency of ignorance...Then there is a list of three latent tendencies...(1) the latent tendency to lust; (2) the latent tendency to aversion; (3) the latent tendency to ignorance...(M 64) gives a list of five latent tendencies, which are there called the "five lower fetters" ...(1) the latent tendency of self-identity (2) the latent tendency of doubt (3) the latent tendency of attachment to rituals and vows (4) the latent tendency of sense-desire (5) the latent tendency of ill-will.

[C T]

Prajna is one of five faculties i.e. indriyas [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part2.html#part2-e], in the 37 factors of awakening common to both Hinayana and Mahayana, which are then repeated as the 5 strengths that are conducive to the path of awakening. They are expressed in their contaminated form by a deluded sentient being on the mundane path; while being expressed in their pure form by an individual established on the supra-mundane path of aryas. The abhidharma-kosha lists 22 indriyas [http://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/akb-ch-2-web.pdf], with 15-22 being the indriyas of nirvana.

Thats all well and good, falling back on doctrinal references can be useful sometimes.

 

Basically, it appears that on this occasion, Ringu Tulku has been made out to look foolish by him saying they are not two separate things.

[C T]

Cutting Through Subtler Misconceptions ~ Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche

Study and reflection will cut through your more gross misconceptions. But the subtler ones can only be dispelled by meditation, and by integration of the absolute wisdom that arises from it into your very being. To engender it, go to a secluded place and stay as much as possible in meditation, practicing shamatha and vipashyana — sustained calm and profound insight — to realize emptiness, the ultimate nature of all phenomena.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche