Genetic Link between India and ancient Mesopotamia

[RongzomFan]

http://www.pasthorizonspr.com/index.php/archives/09/2013/genetic-link-shown-between-indian-subcontinent-and-mesopotamia

Edited January 9, 2014 by RongzomFan

[RongzomFan]

Basically India invented civilization.

[Nungali]

Except you forgot one learned and scholastic opinion ;

There is no cross cultural fertilization. This is not agriculture. Both cultures are very strong cultures. In both cultures, there are civilized city life. In both cultures, the literature is strong. The language is strong, rich. The tradition of poetry is extremely rich in both cultures. They did not mix. REPEAT. THEY DID NOT MIX.

 

 

[Nungali]

On a more serious note:

 

From your link;

 

" This may represent either that the individuals are descendants of migrants from much earlier times (Palaeolithic), spreading the clades of the macrohaplogroup M throughout Eurasia and founding regional Mesopotamian groups like that of Terqa, or they are from merchants moving along trade routes passing near or through the region."

 

Also note map in that link - note the area where the +25% is - it is darker than the +16% colour which is the colour of the groups in India - indicating they are the +16% ... the +25% is the Proto Indo European cultural homeland ... the area I have posted about extensively in other posts. This is the Homeland of The original people that spread to BOTH Mesopotamia and India .

[Nungali]

see 1. Arayan Homeland

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/maps/vendidad.htm

 

and

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/maps/pamir.htm

 

The area described in the Vedas and Avestas , the lost homeland of Soma. (You can still buy a draft of it in any market in Tajikistan.)

Edited January 10, 2014 by Nungali

[RongzomFan]

The Aryan homeland is India.

 

One of authors of the 2009 Harvard genetics study told me personally via email:

 

"Our genetic study disproved Aryan invasion/migration theory".

Edited January 10, 2014 by RongzomFan

[Nungali]

I agree. that theory was actually out of fashion some time ago.

It was never was Aryan invasion.

[RongzomFan]

I agree. that theory was actually out of fashion some time ago.

 

It was never was Aryan invasion.

 

No migration either.

[Nungali]

Perhaps not .... but ;

 

" In 19th century Indo-European studies, the language of the Rigveda was the most archaic Indo-European language known to scholars, indeed the only records of Indo-European that could reasonably claim to date to the Bronze Age. This "primacy" of Sanskrit inspired some scholars, such as Friedrich Schlegel, to assume that the locus of the Proto-Indo-European Urheimat (primary homeland) had been in India, with the other dialects spread to the west by historical migration. This was however never a mainstream position even in the 19th century. Most scholars assumed a homeland either in Europe or in Western Asia, and Sanskrit must in this case have reached India by a language transfer from west to east, in a movement described in terms of invasion by 19th century scholars such as Max Müller. With the 20th century discovery of Bronze-Age attestations of Indo-European (Anatolian, Mycenaean Greek), Vedic Sanskrit lost its special status as the most archaic Indo-European language known."

 

"The Indus Valley civilization (IVC) was discovered in the 1920s. The discovery of the Harappa, Mohenjo-daro and Lothal sites changed the theory from a migration of "advanced" Aryan people towards a "primitive" aboriginal population to a migration of nomadic people into an advanced urban civilization, comparable to the Germanic migrations after the Fall of Rome, or the Kassite invasion of Babylonia. The decline of the Indus Valley Civilisation at precisely the period in history for which the Indo-Aryan migration had been assumed, provides independent support of the linguistic scenario. This argument is associated with the mid-20th century archaeologist Mortimer Wheeler, who interpreted the presence of many unburied corpses found in the top levels of Mohenjo-daro as the victims of conquest wars, and who famously stated that the god "Indra stands accused" of the destruction of the Indus Valley Civilisation."

 

" In the later 20th century, ideas were refined along with data accrual, and migration and acculturation were seen as the methods whereby Indo-Aryans spread into northwest India around 1500 BC. These changes were thought to be in line with changes in thinking about language transfer in general, such as the migration of the Greeks into Greece (between 2100 and 1600 BC) and their adoption of a syllabic script, Linear B, from the pre-existing Linear A, with the purpose of writing Mycenaean Greek, or the Indo-Europeanization of Western Europe (in stages between 2200 and 1300 BC)."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

 

" The Indo-aryan migration theories began with the study of the Rig Veda in the mid 1800s by Max Muller, and gradually evolved from a theory of a large scale invasion of a racially and technologically superior people to being a slow diffusion of small numbers of nomadic people that had a disproportionate societal impact on a large urban population. Contemporary claims of Indo-Aryan migrations are drawn from linguistic, genetic, archaeological, literary and cultural sources."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

 

"The linguistic center of gravity principle states that a language family's most likely point of origin is in the area of its greatest diversity. Only one branch of Indo-European, Indo-Aryan, is found in India, whereas the Italic, Venetic, Illyrian, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, Thracian, and Greek branches of Indo-European are all found in Central-eastern Europe. Because it requires a greater number of long migrations, an Indian Urheimat is far less likely than one closer to the center of Indo-European linguistic diversity.[12][82][83] However, the existence of the Tocharian language family in Western China would shift the center of gravity eastward. Some scholars argue that the various language families in Central and eastern Europe evolved fairly recently, which implies that there was less diversity in the western side of the Indo-European language family during the 2nd millennium BCE at a time contemporaneous with Vedic Sanskrit.[84]

The Indic languages show the influence of the Dravidian and Munda language families. No other branch of Indo-European does. If the Indo-European homeland had been located in India, then the Indo-European languages should have shown some influence from Dravidian and Munda.[85][86]

To postulate the migration of PIE speakers out of India necessitates an earlier dating of the Rigveda than is normally accepted by Vedic scholars to make a deep enough period of migration to allow for the longest migrations to be completed.(Mallory 1989 "

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory#Criticism

 

Out of India Theory is very popular with India nationalist movement. The same as the ‘theory’ that Aboriginals are all one people and never came to Australia from another place - is popular with people trying to help them get their land back . (In some views the New Guinea, Australian and Andaman island types of Negrito people’s all originated in India and were displaced by a westward movement of Dravidians.

 

So maybe Indian people … the ‘original’ Indian people (if there is such a people anywhere on the globe ??? ) populated the whole of Sth East Asia, over to Japan and to the bottom of Tasmania below Australia … and THAT is quite an achievement!

Edited January 10, 2014 by Nungali

[RongzomFan]

Quoting Wikipedia is useless.

 

Half the information on Buddhism, for example, is crap.

[Nungali]

Also re-note in post 4 "

 

" note map in that link - note the area where the +25% is - it is darker than the +16% colour which is the colour of the groups in India - indicating they are the +16% ... the +25% is the Proto Indo European cultural homeland ... the area I have posted about extensively in other posts. This is the Homeland of The original people that spread to BOTH Mesopotamia and India . "

 

That's in your link and agrees with wiki

Edited January 10, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

However I agree with your thread title but not your " India invented civilization"

[ralis]

Arguing over superior cultures or whatever is useless. Read the current genetic research and understand how we are all related. Africa!

 

 

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2012/07/26/out-of-africa-startling-new-genetics-of-human-origins/

 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics

[Isimsiz Biri]

Except you forgot one learned and scholastic opinion ;

 

 

 

Nungali,

 

What you did is unethical. But it suits your character.

 

You stole my post and quoted without my knowledge.

 

If I report you to Mal Stainkey, what will happen?

 

Nothing.

[Isimsiz Biri]

Basically India invented civilization.

 

You are a racist Indian.

[RongzomFan]

You are a racist Indian.

 

I see.

 

So its okay to trace civilization to Mesopotamia, but not India.

 

Actually that makes you the racist.

[Brian]

 

Nungali,

 

What you did is unethical. But it suits your character.

 

You stole my post and quoted without my knowledge.

 

If I report you to Mal Stainkey, what will happen?

 

Nothing.

Is there a permission form people are required to use in order to receive authorization to quote your posts on this forum? I must have missed that memo. Can you provide a link to the form, please, so I can use it in the future?

[Isimsiz Biri]

I see.

 

So its okay to trace civilization to Mesopotamia, but not India.

 

Actually that makes you the racist.

 

I did not say anything about Mesopotamia. It is your imagination again.

[Nungali]

 

Nungali,

 

What you did is unethical. But it suits your character.

 

You stole my post and quoted without my knowledge.

 

If I report you to Mal Stainkey, what will happen?

 

Nothing.

Stole your post did I ??? No, I quoted your post ... like you just quoted me above ... and I credited you for it.

 

And since when do we need to notify people when we quote them .... did you send me a PM saying "Dear Nungali, I am about to quote you?"

 

And you reported me for that did you ? Laughable ! Did you go and tell on me to your mummy too?

 

 

By the way isizsmi I notice there is a report file on you down there ..... hmmmmmm ....????

 

Don't annoy Mal with such trivial childish pawofotas , he has enough to do going through your bad and rude posts and insults to people , collecting evidence on banning you ... besides, its very hot in Townsville today ... he needs siesta .

Edited January 11, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

No migration either.

Okay RF ... I will take your point and open my mind .

 

Outline how this civilisation first started in India, with what people and where they came from. Then outline how it first spread out of India (either to Australia or Mesopotamia ... I don't care which one or way, I am wide open) ... hit me with it.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Nungali

[RongzomFan]

Okay RF ... I will take your point and open my mind .

 

Outline how this civilisation first started in India, with what people and where they came from. Then outline how it first spread out of India (either to Australia or Mesopotamia ... I don't care which one or way, I am wide open) ... hit me with it.

 

All people ultimately come from Africa.

 

Indians then started Mesopotamia and "Indo-European" culture in Europe.

[Isimsiz Biri]

All people ultimately come from Africa.

 

Indians then started Mesopotamia and "Indo-European" culture in Europe.

 

Bullshit.

[Nungali]

 

All people ultimately come from Africa.

 

Indians then started Mesopotamia and "Indo-European" culture in Europe.

THATS your explanation .... not really a thesis is it ?

 

Its a bit like Monty Python's 'How to play the flute.' ; blow in one end and move your fingers up and down the other.

 

Would you like to supply a little more detail ... or is that it ?

Edited January 12, 2014 by Nungali

[Andrei]

 

All people ultimately come from Africa.

 

Indians then started Mesopotamia and "Indo-European" culture in Europe.

 

Bullshit.

Right, this is bullshit!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_civilization

 

The earliest proto-urban settlements with several thousand inhabitants emerged in the Neolithic. The first cities to house several tens of thousands were Memphis and Uruk, by the 31st century BC (see Historical urban community sizes).

Historic times are marked apart from prehistoric times when "records of the past begin to be kept for the benefit of future generations";[8] that is, with the development of writing. If the rise of civilization is taken to coincide with the development of writing out of proto-writing, the Near Eastern Chalcolithic, the transitional period between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age during the 4th millennium BC, and the development of proto-writing in Harappa in the Indus Valley of South Asia around 3300 BCE are the earliest incidences, followed by Chinese proto-writing evolving into the oracle bone script, and again by the emergence of Mesoamerican writing systems from about 200 BC.

 

Ok, if you look into the the neolithic cultures list from wikipedia, the ones originated from Europe, most of them are in the area of Hungary, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria and Ukraine, to give you a list : Cucuteni, Hamangia, Gumelnita, Giulesti-marita, Cernavoda, Dudesti, Turdas-Vinca and more.

Most of them are contemporary to the Ubaid period which is the most ancient of the mesopotamian civilization.

Tartaria tablets dated 5500-5300 BC predates any form of writing found in Egypt or Mesopotamia. Also Gradeshnitsa tablets dated 5000 BC.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tărtăria_tablets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradeshnitsa_tablets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbols_and_proto-writing_of_the_Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

 

Cucuteni culture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Cucutenimalefigure.JPG

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/MotherGoddessFertility.JPG

 

Hamangia culture:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hamangia_Muzeul_din_Constanta.JPG

 

Gumelnita culture:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Gumelnita_Culture_Muzeul_din_Constanta_2013_01.JPG

 

Oldest burial with gold jewelry dated 4600 BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Or_de_Varna_-_Nécropole.jpg

 

"Old European coppersmiths were the most advanced metal artisans in the world. Their intense interest in acquiring copper, Aegean shells, and other rare valuables gave rise to far-reaching trading networks. In their graves, the bodies of Old European chieftains were adorned with pounds of gold and copper ornaments. This include the world's oldest securely dated evidence of copper making at high temperature, from 5,500 BC (found in 2010).[3] And the oldest elite burial and Gold treasure in the world 4600 BC from Varna necropolis (found in 1972). Southeastern Europe were the place for the worlds first major industrial revolution.[4] Their funerals were without parallel in the Near East or Egypt. Southeastern Europe are also the place of the oldest Wooden wheel ever found, the Ljubljana Marshes Wheel were discovered in 2002 and dated to 3,150 BC."

 

Aryan areal:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Centum_Satem_map.png

 

How can be explained names of mountains, rivers and many words in European languages having same roots, sometimes even same meaning as sanskrits words? How can be explained similarities between languages in Europe and Iran and other asian areas?

 

How can be explained large populations of Afghanistan, Iran, and some areas of northern India to have caucasian genetics such as blue or green eyes, blond or red haired?

 

Wtf even means "Caucasian"?

Edited January 13, 2014 by steam

[RongzomFan]

There is no Aryan migration.

 

A scientist from the 2009 Harvard / Nature study told me personally that their study disproved it.