Tilopa’s Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in Twenty Eight Verses

[C T]

The quote is referencing beyond male-female energetic tantra. When one has balanced transmission and receiving (male and female), intent and flow is merged. Sort of like pure or raw emptiness. One then permeates or integrates it into the body. The body is a mapping into all existence.

Spot on! Gone, gone, gone beyond... you know the rest.

[Simple_Jack]

Abhisheka, in Vajrayana, does not mean being introduced to non-dual 'Consciousness/Awareness'.

[RongzomFan]

This is real kundalini stuff:

 

http://www.academia.edu/3491519/The_Original_Gorak_asataka

[UTI]

Slowly send down, retain and draw back up the bodhichitta,

And conducting it to the source, saturate the entire body.

 

What does this mean?

 

In my experience:

 

In neidan this is as when joining the male and female principles, fire and water, by circulating them through the ren and du mai. There is another circulation which is initiated: drawing water-essence up births the wooden element, the niwan, which pours over downwards. Drawing the fire-qi element downwards births the metal element, the yuchi, which pours over upwards.

 

These two pure energies of yin and yang are the boddhicitta that are in turn transmitted towards eachother through the central channel. They are a synthesis of the body's pure yin and yang, and the opening up towards this same raw natural energy outwards that is attracted when the upper dantian and lower dantian are open through emptiness. When the two boddhicitta adhere to eachother in harmony the central channel is opened, and the right and left channels are balanced.

 

When the boddhicitta moves from the lower body up to the head it pours over into the meridians from baihui. When the boddhicitta moves from the head to the lower body it pours over inwards from huigen, nourishing the organs. In this way the whole body is filled with pure yin and yang. When their energy exchanges through emptiness they merge as one in the central channel, drawing down the "one" energy which is unseparated, and the two boddhicitta are unified. The upper boddhicitta moves downwards through the central channel and joins with the lower boddhicitta. They then together enter the tailbone and travel up the spine. This pure energy is experienced as complete oneness and emptiness-bliss.

 

This is how I have experienced it when I practice meditation. There are many specifics as to where the different energy centres are located and such, but it is really pointless talking about it. This process seems to me to happen naturally when one has cultivated emptiness and basic MCO practice over a longer period of time. Also, the process described in the mahamudra text happens over and over in more and more pure forms, starting with simply circulating energy together with the breath until it is pure enough that one is completely dissolved into pure consciousness.

 

I haven't gone beyond the merger I speak of lastly, I stop when it starts merging/dissolving up the spine, but up until that I have experienced it personally through my practice before reading about it in books about mahamudra (I have never practiced tibetan yoga/buddhism). SO, I gladly take criticism for this not following exactly how it is supposed to be, or how more experienced and informed practitioners have heard of it, as my understanding of it comes from experience and daoist theory, not the actual yogas of naropa. BUT, I strongly believe they are the same, as all spiritual practices eventually are, especially when they actively step away from intellectualization/worship and move into practice. In daoism this is basically "jing converts to qi, qi converts to shen, and shen returns to unify with the dao".

 

It should be added that when I tell me master about these experiences, he simply says it is too advanced for my current practice, and that I should keep to the basics so that it may be done in completion. I agree with this, and keep to the fundamentals. There is no rush to experience divine union, we all get there sooner or later.

 

peace!

[Jeff]

Spot on! Gone, gone, gone beyond... you know the rest.

 

I think it is also important to note the words of the text "But only if lust and attachment are absent will that awareness arise." It is beyond a meditative state.

 

 

[Simple_Jack]

The methods of Vajrayana practice are predicated on introduction to the 'view' by the guru. An individual then receives instruction, on how to carry out practice predicated on the 'view', that has been introduced by the guru.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tilopa’s Pith Instructions on Mahamudra (The Ganges Mahamudra)

 

I found a link to nine translations of this text.

 

What amazes me is that each translation is somewhat different, and some of the translations don't even mention the tantric instructions.

 

Is Tibetan so hard to translate that a person must resort to artistic license in order to make sense of what Tilopa what trying to say?

 

Why is each translation different?

 

http://www.naturalawareness.net/ganges.html

 

?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Tibetan_Ice

[RongzomFan]

Tibetan is hard.

 

The sentence structure is nothing like English.

[gatito]

Tilopa’s Pith Instructions on Mahamudra (The Ganges Mahamudra)

 

I found a link to nine translations of this text.

 

What amazes me is that each translation is somewhat different, and some of the translations don't even mention the tantric instructions.

 

Is Tibetan so hard to translate that a person must resort to artistic license in order to make sense of what Tilopa what trying to say?

 

Why is each translation different?

 

http://www.naturalawareness.net/ganges.html

 

?

 

Hi TI

 

This problem usually arises because translations are frequently made by someone who's not established in the Truth.

 

Even when they are thus established and the translator is bilingual, difficulties arise because the world is seen differently when thinking in different languages.

 

That's why there are so vanishingly few reliable source texts around (and one of the reasons why DIY doesn't usually work )

 

For example, although Krishna Menon translated Atma Darshan and Atma Nirvriti into english himself from a source text which he wrote himsef, he pointed out in the preface that his own translation lacks the force of the original Malayalm verse format (which is one of the reasons that it should be studied with the help of a teacher established in the Truth and/or the help of the more detailed explanation of his Self-realised disciple John Levy).

 

Anyway.....I hope life's good TI

 

Best Wishes

 

g

[yabyum24]

some of the translations don't even mention the tantric instructions.

I suspect that some of them prefer not to mention it.

[rex]

Translators missing out the good bits?

 

Try this:

http://www.keithdowman.net/books/sd.htm#Tsogyel%27s%20Karmamudra%20Instruction

 

Taken from:

Vajra Love

 

Edit: duplicated link removed

 

 

Edited January 13, 2014 by rex

[Simple_Jack]

Although, Malcolm, was mentioning this in regards to translations of Dzogchen texts: I think this applies to the majority of Vajrayana texts being translated into English.

 

http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=600

 

Most of the misconceptions about Dzogchen that people have comes about from making philosophical commitments to translations. You must understand that at this point the translation of seminal texts are in a very embryonic state.

At this point it, those of you who do not know Tibetan should reply more on oral instructions than on texts, in my opinion. I am not saying "do not read translations". I am saying that you must understand that translations are very provisional at best at this stage of the game when it comes to Dzogchen. The ground is firmer in terms of sutra and tantra.

But what I mostly wanted to address is the idea that merely because one has cited some translations, that one's point is well-backed up. It isn't. If one's citation is not well translated, one's point will be skewed.

 

Relying foremost on the instructions of a guru should be a no-brainer for a Vajrayana practitioner.

[C T]

Some instructional points to bear in mind relating to actual practice:

 

2. The basic principles or nature of the Body.

In the center of the Transformation-Wheel (Chakra) at the navel and the other main Wheels in the body is pivoted the Central Channel; the upper end and the lower end of

p. 158

it, together with other points of the Wheels, are the most important centers. These centers are viewed as vital points and are emphasized in the Skill-in-Yoga-Teachings of Tantra.

According to the pith-instructions of Marpa, one should put emphasis on the Heart and Throat Centers during sleeping, and should know the critical teachings on the Navel and Forehead Centers during the practice of Heat Yoga and Karma Yoga in the awakening stage. This is because during these different times the Thig-le upon which the consciousness relies concentrates at these four different centers. According to the teaching of Dus-akor (Kalachakra) the Head Center and Navel Center produce the Thig-le in the awakening stage; the Throat and the Secret Center produce the Thig-le in dreaming stage; the Heart and the Precious Center produce the Thig-le in the deep-dreaming stage. This agrees approximately with the saying that at the end of the navel and genital center, the Thig-le is produced in the four different times.

At the time of falling into sleep, the pranas will gather at the Heart Center and the Precious Center. When they are heavily concentrated, one will fall into sleep; thereafter, the pranas in these two parts gradually become thinner and thinner. When (most of) the pranas come to the Secret Center and Throat Center the fleeting dreams will appear; when the pranas have gathered in these two parts for some time the actual dreams (or steady dreams) will arise. When the pranas rise up to the Center Head and Navel Centers, one will awake. From the Head Center the Thig-le drops to the end of the precious organ; as it reaches the different

 

p. 159

centers as mentioned above it will produce the various blisses (or so-called Four Blisses).

This is the meaning of the four times:

Through the power of the prana the Yogi manipulates in exercise, the Downward-Bliss produces the Dim Innate when it reaches the center of the navel; when it reaches the end of the precious organ the Bright Innate is produced.

That these four centers are very important in the meritorious exercises of dream and sleep by no means implies that they are not essential points upon which the exercises of mental concentration should be carried out during the daytime. Among all the centers in the body, the Navel Center is the one upon which the Yogi should begin. One should also know that to concentrate upon the different centers will produce different effects and specific advantages.

 

 

 

* I have a detailed link to the preparatory stages and actual practice ritual for the secret yogas of Naropa. Due to the fact that its classified as a mahayoga practice, i cannot post it here, but can do so selectively via PM. Of course this is not my exclusive knowledge as it can be accessed via the net, just that i cannot post the link openly in line with vows taken. Those who know will understand. Maybe its already been posted here in the past, not sure, and i wont be searching anyways.

Edited January 13, 2014 by C T

[RongzomFan]

 

Hi TI

 

This problem usually arises because translations are frequently made by someone who's not established in the Truth.

 

Even when they are thus established and the translator is bilingual, difficulties arise because the world is seen differently when thinking in different languages.

 

That's why there are so vanishingly few reliable source texts around (and one of the reasons why DIY doesn't usually work )

 

For example, although Krishna Menon translated Atma Darshan and Atma Nirvriti into english himself from a source text which he wrote himsef, he pointed out in the preface that his own translation lacks the force of the original Malayalm verse format (which is one of the reasons that it should be studied with the help of a teacher established in the Truth and/or the help of the more detailed explanation of his Self-realised disciple John Levy).

 

Anyway.....I hope life's good TI

 

Best Wishes

 

g

 

Again, with the John Levy shit.

[RongzomFan]

i cannot post it here, but can do so selectively via PM.

 

samaya breaker. And you accuse others of breaking samaya.

[C T]

samaya breaker. And you accuse others of breaking samaya.

I have checked prior to mentioning the offer, for one. Two, its not classified as Ati. Thirdly, anyone can buy a book on Naropa's 6 Yogas (i just thought someone who might be interested to learn can save a few dollars this way), and lastly, thank you for the reminder.

[RongzomFan]

Two, its not classified as Ati.

 

Is only Atiyoga covered by samaya??!!

[C T]

Is only Atiyoga covered by samaya??!!

your comprehension skills are quite staggering.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Hi TI

 

This problem usually arises because translations are frequently made by someone who's not established in the Truth.

 

Even when they are thus established and the translator is bilingual, difficulties arise because the world is seen differently when thinking in different languages.

 

That's why there are so vanishingly few reliable source texts around (and one of the reasons why DIY doesn't usually work )

 

For example, although Krishna Menon translated Atma Darshan and Atma Nirvriti into english himself from a source text which he wrote himsef, he pointed out in the preface that his own translation lacks the force of the original Malayalm verse format (which is one of the reasons that it should be studied with the help of a teacher established in the Truth and/or the help of the more detailed explanation of his Self-realised disciple John Levy).

 

Anyway.....I hope life's good TI

 

Best Wishes

 

g

Hi Gatito

You know, I agree with you. I think if successful practitioners would translate texts within the context of their experiences rather than scholarly interpretations, they would write totally different words. The problem with most Buddhists is that they don't talk about their experiences or practices, being bound by samaya.. Funny though, the accomplished Buddhist practitioners write about their experiences and practices in formal books and sell them for money.

 

What is "DIY"?

 

Life is good, thank you for the wish.

I wish for you the same. You are a brave soul presenting your views in this subforum of marauders and bandits..

 

To Yabyum24 and Rex:

 

I don't miss the tantric part of that Mahamudra pith instruction in some of those translations.

I find it curious how one can present pure Mahamudra instruction and then, as if to cop out, present tantra as an alternative for less intelligent individuals. (their words, not mine)

 

At best, I see tantra as a diversion. The main instruction in Mahamudra is to remain relaxed without a focus, without a goal, rest in naturalness without conceptual mind.. Tantra is none of those..

 

11

Mind without projection is mahamudra.

Train and develop this and you will come to the deepest awakening.

12

You don’t see mahamudra’s sheer clarity

By means of classical texts or philosophical systems,

Whether of the mantras, paramitas,

Vinaya, sutras or other collections.

13

Ambition clouds sheer clarity and you don’t see it.

Thinking about precepts undermines the point of commitment.

Do not think about anything; let all ambition drop.

Let what arises settle by itself, like patterns in water.

No place, no focus, no missing the point —

Do not break this commitment: it is the light in the dark.

 

I don't see how practising Tantra can be something without a focus.

 

Further, the story about Ponchen Lhundrub Muthur in "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud" by Lopon Tenzin Namdak, who was known for his Tantric abilities, did not achieve rainbow body..

 

Here is an easy quote:

http://yungdrung-rignga-ling.forums-free.com/from-kuntu-zangpo-to-gurib-lhajin-t291.html

 

 

When Ponchen Lhundrub grew older, did he regret 3 things:

 

1) That he was too quick satisfied with the teachings of his Guru Ponchen Tsampo and not had asked for more detailed Dzogchen teachings.

This formed the reason that he missed the transmission teachings.

2) He regretted that he did practiced in his youth more Tantra then the practice of Dzogchen and the experience of the Upadeshas.

3) He got only Tantric realizations because he did practiced This snags. His realization of the Natural State was not stable enough.

 

The above mentioned 3 points, formed the reason why he did not obtained at the end of his live the Rainbow Body.

 

Luckily, having no Buddhist lama to whom I am bound, I can talk about my practices freely.

 

The parts that interested me about the multiple translations are these:

 

 

The dedicated practitioner

experiences the spiritual way

as a turbulent mountain stream,

tumbling dangerously among boulders.

When maturity is reached,

the river flows smoothly and patiently

with the powerful sweep of the Ganges.

Emptying into the ocean of Mahamudra,

the water becomes ever-expanding light

that pours into great Clear Light --

without direction, destination,

division, distinction or description.

 

 

At first the yogi feels his mind to be turbulent like the upper course of a rushing river.

In the middle stage it becomes smooth like the broad Ganges.

In the end it is like the Ganges entering the ocean, meeting of son and mother.

 

 

In beginners, this is similar to water [gushing down] a gorge.

In between, it is the gentle flow to the river Ganga.

Finally, all waters meet like a mother and her child.

 

 

For a beginner it is like a river with a fast current running through a narrow bed or a narrow defile. In the middle or after that, it becomes like the gentle current of the River Ganges. In the end, it is like the flowing of all rivers into the mother ocean, or it is like the meeting of mother and child of all the rivers.

 

 

At first a yogi feels his mind

Is tumbling like a waterfall;

In mid-course, like the Ganges

It flows on slow and gentle;

In the end, it is a great

Vast ocean, where the Lights

Of Son and Mother merge in one.

 

 

Those part interest me because I have found that center where I can rest my 'heart knowing' attention like a wet noodle flopping down and remain there. As I remain there, the torrents of thoughts and visions begins and it is like a very strong water fall, a pouring out of massive amounts of visions, thoughts, colors, visions, winds.. It is like the waterfall mentioned. It is like a river with fast current. It requires effort to remain there. It is like the turbulent mountain stream lines with boulders as mentioned in all those translations.

 

This point where you relax into and rest seems to be in the center of the back of the head, just behind the ears. If I focus there, making an effort to relax and keep the attention there, settled with no objective other than to remain there, that is when the flow or current of thoughts/visions begins. Periodically, I'm getting to the point where all of a sudden something 'clicks' and the speed of the flow dramatically slows down, as if in slow motion.

 

I interpret this practice and effect from it as the burning or dissolving of karma, of imprints in the mind... the settling of the mind. I interpret this to mean that when one 'rests' the mind in exactly the right position, the process of thoughts/visions being created, existing for a moment and then dissolving commences. When you don't grasp at the thoughts or visions, the process speeds up.

 

It is kind of deceptive because, according to Mahamudra instruction and Dzogchen too, one would think that resting the mind in naturalness is leaving the mind wide open, without bounds or focus. However, leaving the mind open and free, without bounds or focus does not produce the swift flowing river of thoughts and images, not like the practice of resting the attention at the source.

 

So, you can see the reason for my interest in the subject and the many varied translations of Tilopa's instructions.

 

[RongzomFan]

All of Mahamudra is tantric.

 

There is not a "tantric part."

[RongzomFan]

It is kind of deceptive because, according to Mahamudra instruction and Dzogchen too, one would think that resting the mind in naturalness is leaving the mind wide open, without bound

 

Mahamudra is about recognizing unfabricated awareness.

[RongzomFan]

At best, I see tantra as a diversion. The main instruction in Mahamudra is to remain relaxed without a focus, without a goal, rest in naturalness without conceptual mind.. Tantra is none of those..

 

Tantra means based on a class of literature called tantras and dohas, with specific characteristics such as direct introduction.

 

Tantra does not mean sexual practice. Mahamudra is tantric.

[Simple_Jack]

@ TI

 

1. Why don't you like what Buddha teaches?

 

2. Mahamudra practice coincides with the 2 stages i.e creation & completion stage.

 

3. You should seriously consider receiving instructions from a guru.

 

4. Opportunities to receive teachings on Mahamudra are much more common in comparison to Dzogchen. There are cases where sanghas sell DVDs on Mahamudra teachings.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[idiot_stimpy]

This is not in the spirit in which I hoped this thread would go.

 

 

Judging other people, high or low, shows arrogance.

[yabyum24]

To Yabyum24 and Rex:

 

I don't miss the tantric part of that Mahamudra pith instruction in some of those translations.

I find it curious how one can present pure Mahamudra instruction and then, as if to cop out, present tantra as an alternative for less intelligent individuals. (their words, not mine)

Hi TI

No idea there. The tantric component does seem oddly out of place, like an afterthought. The two systems are very different but are said to yield the same result, so I don't judge them in terms of intelligence etc. even if the text appears to.

 

Both are good and consort practice is only an aid to tummo for some people and does not even need to be a flesh and blood woman. Tantra is a massive topic.