Why on earth would one practice more than one system?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Because my bum gets sore if I do nothing but seated meditation

 

Then you need BAGUA! lololol

[Taomeow]

My point is how can you mix to different types of alchemy practice at the same time?

 

And if your current alchemy is deep authentic valid and leads to high attainment why would you waste your time with another system

 

Yes there is bruce and famous alchemists in the past who have mixed stuff to create something new.

 

But let me offer these points.

 

Everyone is not bruce lee he was a rare talent. To bank on you or others doing the same isnt to secure...everyone isnt a genius in thier field....

 

Secondly bruce and the others studied one system for years.

 

Finally alchemy isnt the same as martial arts some energies and some types of alchemy are not compatible.

 

To mix systems just because you think your system is lacking is just ignorant. Not every system develops things at the same time.

 

The spiritual attainment in your school or sect could be very powerful more powerful than what you ever thought possible. Some things are reserved for the indoor the most sincere hard working students.

 

And masters do put them thru various tests.

 

Ive had friends give up on authentic alchemy just to go back to being a seeker and still to this day attained nothing......

 

It happens.

 

Most traditional taoist training always included exposure to other systems. Taoism is not to be confused with modalities we are more closely familiar with, ones that discourage contact with slightly, let alone massively, different modalities, seeing them as competition at best, as inferior or "wrong" obligatorily, and as the enemy often enough. A Protestant priest may be frowned upon by his congregation (at the very least) if he routinely goes to Catholic confession, and you can't even enter a mosque if you are not Muslim, so some Westerners extend this habitual state of their spiritual affairs to taoism. A Western scientist will be disqualified if he engages in alchemy (although Isaac Newton's example should have taught them that this can be quite scientifically fruitful), but a taoist alchemist is not precluded from studying Western science. As Dawei mentioned quoting the great Sima Qian, taoists "exemplify the best of every school by assimilating any teaching."

 

My own teachers had several teachers of their own, are spectacularly well-educated and skillful in many endeavors, and do not object to explorations. To do otherwise is only justified when the goal is to recruit to a cult and have the followers adhere to the ironclad party line or else be accused of thought-crime and disowned or punished. Our religious institutions and our scientific ones alike (the latter having been modeled on the former) may be such cults, but taoism is not.

[BaguaKicksAss]

A contented heart has no need for variety. This is not to say one is enough... what it means is to have an attitude of sufficiency, where if nothing worthy of practice is presently available, then be satisfied with what is already there. If something worthwhile comes along, then welcome it if there is suitability, if not don't welcome it. The thing to bear in mind is not to hanker or chase after so many systems. The basic confusion arise not from practicing more than one system, but to have that underlying feeling of lack which keeps prodding one from the inside. If such a feeling is not cut away at the root, then even conquering the whole universe will not bring satisfaction... With perspective, timing, and a good measure of gentleness as guide, its ok to explore what comes one's way, without too much worry.

 

 

 

edit.spelling

 

That is so well put, and definitely true. Thank you for adding to the discussion .

[Aeran]

Then you need BAGUA! lololol

 

LOL. Tbh I don't know anything about bagua except that it involves circle walking

[thamosh]

Most traditional taoist training always included exposure to other systems. Taoism is not to be confused with modalities we are more closely familiar with, ones that discourage contact with slightly, let alone massively, different modalities, seeing them as competition at best, as inferior or "wrong" obligatorily, and as the enemy often enough. A Protestant priest may be frowned upon by his congregation (at the very least) if he routinely goes to Catholic confession, and you can't even enter a mosque if you are not Muslim, so some Westerners extend this habitual state of their spiritual affairs to taoism. A Western scientist will be disqualified if he engages in alchemy (although Isaac Newton's example should have taught them that this can be quite scientifically fruitful), but a taoist alchemist is not precluded from studying Western science. As Dawei mentioned quoting the great Sima Qian, taoists "exemplify the best of every school by assimilating any teaching."

 

My own teachers had several teachers of their own, are spectacularly well-educated and skillful in many endeavors, and do not object to explorations. To do otherwise is only justified when the goal is to recruit to a cult and have the followers adhere to the ironclad party line or else be accused of thought-crime and disowned or punished. Our religious institutions and our scientific ones alike (the latter having been modeled on the former) may be such cults, but taoism is not.

 

Well id say yes that taoists are inclusive when it comes to exploring and researching the phenomenon of the natural law and forces.

 

But

 

Taoists can be exclusive with learning or teaching alchemic practices that come from outside their sect.

 

Part of the exclusivity could be due to politics.

 

Not to get side tracked but im talking about acheiving a high spiritual attainment in ones own alchemic training.

Edited January 15, 2014 by thamosh

[Ya Mu]

Totally agree with this.

 

Many of the great masters I've seen have studied and mastered multiple systems condensing it into one system. Hu Yao Zhen did this when he created stillness movement, and Wang Jue Min studied with 5 different masters of different systems and added to the lineage (in what way I'm not sure). Michael Lomax studied with 2, and added Taoist Medicine to the SM lineage.

 

Ming Pang of Zhineng(chi-lel) studied with a number of masters of different lineages consolidating the practices down to a powerful medical qigong.

 

Even Chun Yi Lin of Spring Forest qigong studied with many masters, although I'm not sure who.

 

So all this said, I think dedicating yourself to a lineage is important, and learning from many others is important as well. From there you can add to the spiritual understanding of qigong. But like anything it takes years of practice, and study.

 

The guys that are part of zhineng qigong are really big about this. It's kind of cool how much they experiment with chi to see to what extent they can do stuff.

 

John

Good point.

 

But actually I have studied many qigong systems and have taken workshops, classes, and one-on-one with probably over 100 different Chinese medicine & Qigong teachers. I just usually only mention the top 2 out of all of them as these top 2 systems presented the highest efficiency of all I studied.

--------------------------------------------

 

In general, it is difficult to say absolutely, as everyone is a bit different, but the argument for taking something and sticking to it has much merit. IMO only when a person has reached a certain point in development can they take other methods to experiment with and know whether it is good to add or not. And if the system they started out with is good and efficient, they will probably find that the newer experimental approach does not do as much as their original system. If the original system is not as efficient, then this would be a reason to switch methodologies. I am speaking from the viewpoint of neigong and not martial arts.

 

And as far as those trying to re-invent the wheel I will point out that the real systems were developed form experimentation over many lifetimes.

Again, IMO ONLY when a person has reached a certain level can they even begin to comprehend as to how to make something more efficient, and to attempt to experiment without knowing what is actually going on can be dangerous when practicing powerful arts.

[BaguaKicksAss]

In general, it is difficult to say absolutely, as everyone is a bit different, but the argument for taking something and sticking to it has much merit. IMO only when a person has reached a certain point in development can they take other methods to experiment with and know whether it is good to add or not. And if the system they started out with is good and efficient, they will probably find that the newer experimental approach does not do as much as their original system. If the original system is not as efficient, then this would be a reason to switch methodologies. I am speaking from the viewpoint of neigong and not martial arts.

 

And as far as those trying to re-invent the wheel I will point out that the real systems were developed form experimentation over many lifetimes.

Again, IMO ONLY when a person has reached a certain level can they even begin to comprehend as to how to make something more efficient, and to attempt to experiment without knowing what is actually going on can be dangerous when practicing powerful arts.

 

So so very true!

Edited January 15, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[liminal_luke]

Something kinda cool can happen when you delve into different systems: they cross-pollinate in your mind and deeper connections reveal themselves.

 

I spent most of my college years exploring Judaism. Some years later at a Kan and Li workshop with Michael Winn he related the alchemical mixture of fire and water to the intersecting triangles in the Star of David. It may not sound like much, but it blew me away.

 

Later, at a SunDo retreat, I was working with the breath, in particular, the still point at the end of the inhalation and exhalation before things turn around again. To me the silence at the bottom of every exhale IS the alchemical fusion of yin and yang IS the mystery hinted at in the geometry of the Star of David, or even--to really go out on a limb here--the Cross.

 

(The Cross connection happened for me while walking on the mostly Catholic pilgramage to Santiago de Compostela in Spain. I wasn't a Christian then and I'm not now, but something clicked for me walking everyday looking at all those Crosses. You've got your horizontal and you've got your vertical, you've got that magic point in the middle where everything comes together. Something beautiful about that too.)

 

Maybe I'm wrong. It's certainly possible that the way I'm putting things together isn't strictly correct, but that isn't the point. My far-ranging investigations have allowed me to glimpse threads that are universal across systems, and perhaps cultures as well.

 

Would I be farther along the path, spiritually speaking, if I'd stuck it out with the Torah? Perhaps. Still, I've carved my own path and it hasn't been all bad.

 

Liminal

Edited January 15, 2014 by liminal_luke

[dawei]

Ultimately, finding your destiny is one's unique journey. It will always be difficult for some to understand another's path, even their own is quite troubling at times.

 

I use a different username on every website I join... at first I did it instinctively as I never thought a singular label had any true meaning... it was only later I realized that people actually use the same name on multiple websites... I thought... how mechanical of us humans...

[dawei]

I thought... how mechanical of us humans...

 

Maybe I am Deckard after all...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hint]: Blade Runner

[joeblast]

-on the contrary my friends, all the greats mastered multiple systems in order to create one system. donhai chaun, bruce lee, chan sen feng, even in the sciences its the same thing. to get something useful you have to add and take away to get the outcome your looking for, also keeping in mind byproducts of the processes involved. its about understanding, if you understand the processes of the system/systems you practice, you will be able to practice multiple systems at once and utilize more of the aspects. the more you advance you will be able to understand the subtleties of any system you practice and may have insight into others as well. -in practicing any system, one or many, you must know your goal and final outcome that you're hoping to attain, then master a system/systems that have been known to produce that outcome. this goes beyond just nei kung, and bleeds over into life as well. -think about how many sciences it takes to send a rocket ship into space! lol!! but like i said know the outcome you seek because "some ppl just want to swim" science and space isnt interesting lol -the greatest peice of advice i could give to anyone looking to practice one system or many know yourself and what you can handle and go from there peace,love, and chi...ps "curiosity didnt kill every cat it made some of them famous"

yup!

and...curiosity only kills the stupid or superlatively careless ones

 

It doesn't matter if you practice one system or fifteen. What matters is if you get the fundamentals. You can apply them to perfecting one art, but if the practice is a fundamental one, it doesn't matter -- the skill is applicable to fifteen others, or more. Just yesterday my taiji teacher was drilling me in directing qi to the hands. This was for taiji, but what would stop me from using this skill for calligraphy? Paining? Healing? Talismanic sorcery? Cooking? Knitting? Stuffing demons in a gourd bottle?..

 

There's fundamental practices and fundamental skills. A fundamental practice is what you may want to give the bulk of your time and dedication. Fundamental skills, however, gained from such practice, can be applied to any other practice you fancy. If you can breathe abdominally, you can reverse breathe abdominally. If you can visualize, you can blank out the screen. If you can open your heart, you can open your joints. If you can open your joints, you can open your meridians. If you can heal yourself, you can heal someone else.

 

If you find that you can't master a fundamental skill doing whatever your current practice is, change the practice. As a potential future immortal from Chen village told us at a workshop, "You don't serve taiji. Taiji serves you."

 

I am no slave to any practice. I do what I love. If love is not there, I won't do it. If I love more than one, I'll do all of them -- provided I don't love being lazy and slacking even more. My heart decides.

reading your first (2) sentence going hah, ya beat me to it!

 

Something kinda cool can happen when you delve into different systems: they cross-pollinate in your mind and deeper connections reveal themselves.

 

yup

 

Later, at a SunDo retreat, I was working with the breath, in particular, the still point at the end of the inhalation and exhalation before things turn around again. To me the silence at the bottom of every exhale IS the alchemical fusion of yin and yang

when I get on about talking about breath, lately I've missed out on a big point I used to make - sure, those points in between contain some great stilness-potential, but the issue is, its unfortunately very unsustainable and hypoxia is just around the corner, along with all the resultant neural alarm-bells that are the opposite result of what you want to neuro-physically accomplish with meditation. so consider the whole breath-count idea, 5-5-5 or what have you - ya know what, take that 5 second pause and put that entire 5 seconds into transitioning in between inhale and exhale. extrapolate that concept and the transitions disappear altogether - with the nerves sufficiently shut up and the body's finger on the pulse of breath having been disconnected - that's the start of where that shiny awareness-orb of utter void is, and with your body still having itself well tethered to those feedbacks, its damn near impossible to really achieve great depths of stillness without doing the proper attenuations and ingraining of muscle memory etc.

Edited January 15, 2014 by joeblast

[Taomeow]

yup!

and...curiosity only kills the stupid or superlatively careless ones

 

reading your first sentence going hah, ya beat me to it!

 

when I get on about talking about breath, lately I've missed out on a big point I used to make - sure, those points in between contain some great stilness-potential, but the issue is, its unfortunately very unsustainable and hypoxia is just around the corner, along with all the resultant neural alarm-bells that are the opposite result of what you want to neuro-physically accomplish with meditation. so consider the whole breath-count idea, 5-5-5 or what have you - ya know what, take that 5 second pause and put that entire 5 seconds into transitioning in between inhale and exhale. extrapolate that concept and the transitions disappear altogether - with the nerves sufficiently shut up and the body's finger on the pulse of breath having been disconnected - that's the start of where that shiny awareness-orb of utter void is, and with your body still having itself well tethered to those feedbacks, its damn near impossible to really achieve great depths of stillness without doing the proper attenuations and ingraining of muscle memory etc.

 

Breath is interesting, and unique, in that it has double controls explicitly built in -- both in the upper brain and lower brain, conscious and unconscious, voluntary and involuntary. Which is why so many practices "work" with breath in the beginning -- you learn to be able to choose which system to use, the boss mode -- "I control this" or the autopilot mode -- "it/something/don't know who or what controls it." But this is one of the fundamental skills I've been talking about earlier that is, down the road, applicable to everything else, every other function, after you've mastered this one. You learn how to create voluntary control centers for heart rate, blood pressure, liver functions, kidneys functions, all that originally involuntary jazz. What you will apply the skill to becomes a choice. To modulating the physical or exploring the nonphysical, or both?

 

The moment you come across a new and different practice, you think, hmm, I can try this, and I don't have to start from scratch, I know some basics that are applicable... And if the new practice is incompatible with what you've been doing before, you'll know that too, often right away -- you don't experiment blindly anymore, you "see" into what this or that mode is about and can predict what it's going to do to you if you take it on board, something good or something atrocious.

 

I do a special seasonal meditation, winter only, for a certain personal modification. It is different from my regular practice, and does not require absolute stillness, sitting in lotus, or reverse breathing. But since I know all these fundamentals are not even remotely incompatible with my Water meditation, I incorporate them with impunity. Just to get an additional benefit, which I know is a benefit, not a transgression. Will it affect my main practice adversely? No. Will my main practice get enriched if I give a special boost to an individual "qi phase need" that is mine specifically, not "universal?" That's quite possible. But if someone else wants to learn this from me, they better know WHY they need it. Chances are they don't, and doing it is going to do damage. So, again and again: get the fundamentals, and applications are your oyster.

[9th]

Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

 

- Anapanasati Sutta

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[joeblast]

 

Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.

 

- Anapanasati Sutta

"The patterns of breath resonate into the higher brain centers"

-Ausin, Zen & the Brain

[C T]

"The patterns of breath resonate into the higher brain centers"

-Ausin, Zen & the Brain

And from there, clarity brews, and slowly drips down to moisten the heart with bodhicitta.

[tao stillness]

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi used to teach us that "the mind always goes to a field of greater charm."

This is the souce of all desire. Not to eradicate natural desire but to reach fulfillment of desires and the only thing that can fulfill desires according to the Vedas is Pure Consciousness. Transcending thoughts and feelings and being with Pure Awarenss.

I have found degrees of this inner fulfillment from TM, but never from chi kung. I do chi kung for health and spiritual reasons.

So I agree with some of the above posts which believe that the chasing of systems, which I also am guilty of doing, is due to something missing inside. I don't seek more food after a satisfying meal. So when I become obsessed with finding the perfect chi kung mehtod for myself, I realize that my meditation for whatever reason is not taking me deep enough. And I have been in that state of mind for the past 3 years. Similar to the drug user chasing the high.

[Aksijaha]

BKA,

 

Because of this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude. Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding."

 

"Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

 

tend to overestimate their own level of skill;

fail to recognize genuine skill in others;

fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;

recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they are exposed to training for that skill."

 

Sounds like they are 20+ year dojo vets don't it?

Edited January 17, 2014 by Aksijaha

[skydog]

pretty picture

Edited January 17, 2014 by skydog

[Taomeow]

What is a system?

 

In spontaneous movements.. the energy moves the body in the perfect way..spontaneously...so What is a form?

 

This can be the same with writing, poetry, stories, nature..

 

What is a system?

 

I am nature, combined of all the parts of the system, becoming into greater harmony.

 

Im sorry, but its just human nature to think one can improve on something, some may take it as an insult, or just a factor of creation...

 

Its creativity

 

Like in a discussion many members offer great views, sometimes completely contradictory

 

What is a system?

 

Something that facilitates full expression of your human potential.

 

Creativity falls short. There's infinitely many ways to wear a pair of shoes creatively -- you can balance them on your head, tie them to your ass, strap them onto your face or your privates, suspend them from your neck, tuck them behind your belt, drag them around on a dog leash, use them as a plate and a spoon, etc. etc.. Now then, that's creativity. A system is putting your shoes on your feet -- the left one on the left foot, the right one on the right foot.

 

There's infinitely many ways "civilized" people are "creatively" discombobulated from the get-go, so when they just express themselves freely, they have absolutely nothing to express other than shades and flavors and degrees of this discombobulated state. One can engage in this neurotic behavior and believe oneself a free spirit, an artist, a part of nature (duh... raised by the TV and video games, nature's native son...). Or one can get lucky and stumble across a system that will start undoing the damage and unfolding the true potentials of natural normalcy. But to get this lucky, one must first get humble and understand that the source of much of his or her self-expression is ignorance of an extreme kind, all-encompassing, body, mind, spirit. Without such realization people tend to instinctively avoid systems that can potentially threaten their inflated self-image by sticking their noses smack into their glaring incompetence in pretty much everything that a "human being" is about.

[skydog]

in a discussion, it is best that people actually know each other, otherwise many misunderstandings occur.

Edited January 18, 2014 by skydog

[BaguaKicksAss]

I recommend reading her post skydog, it was actually quite nice and well thought out, it didn`t feel angry to me at all, and wasn`t putting anyone down, just offering a perspective...

Edited January 18, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[skydog]

I recommend reading her post skydog, it was actually quite nice and well thought out, it didn`t feel angry to me at all, and wasn`t putting anyone down, just offering a perspective...

maybe so..

 

goodnight

Edited January 17, 2014 by skydog

[C T]

i sense unhappiness

 

may all beings, in small and great ways, find hippiness and the causes of hippiness now and always.

[Aksijaha]

i sense unhappiness

 

may all beings, in small and great ways, find hippiness and the causes of hippiness now and always.

 

Gosh darn hippies!! Always trying to spread hippiness around!