It Is Not Dao

[Mark Saltveit]

Not Dao is Dao.

[Marblehead]

Not Dao is Dao.

True as viewed from a certain perspective.

[thelerner]

We need an F.

 

F. All of the above

 

 

F: All of em

Well F. You .

[zerostao]

Not Dao is Dao.

 

True as viewed from a certain perspective.

somewhat twisted ? or from standing at the corner of not tao and tao?

(mark's avatar)

[Stosh]

True as viewed from a certain perspective.

What perspective is that? Outer Space?

[Marblehead]

Well F. You .

That wasn't my intention. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

somewhat twisted ? or from standing at the corner of not tao and tao?

(mark's avatar)

Hehehe. No. From a non-human prespective. Okay, you have to imagine a little bit.

[Marblehead]

What perspective is that? Outer Space?

That would work, I think.

[ChiDragon]

That would work, I think.

 

No, that wouldn't work is because the outer space is within Tao.

[Marblehead]

 

No, that wouldn't work is because the outer space is within Tao.

True but from out there one could see only a tiny blue dot and wouldn't be deluded by all the delusional imagery.

[Qingtian]

The Dao De Jing talks about what is "budao", literally "not dao" or not following the way:

 

物壯則老，是謂不道，不道早已

 

When things are full grown, they age

This is called not following the dao

Not following the dao they soon perish

 

(Chapter 30 and also Chapter 55)

[Marblehead]

Yep. And I think this speaks to the concept of not following our true nature.

 

Thing is, most of us can never find our true nature because our mind is so polluted by what others have put into it.

[Qingtian]

Yep. And I think this speaks to the concept of not following our true nature.

 

Thing is, most of us can never find our true nature because our mind is so polluted by what others have put into it.

 

I agree.

 

I would also add the same is true of our bodies.

[Stosh]

So what is it that you have found is your true nature Mh ?

 

And what is your pure body like Qingtian?

[Marblehead]

So what is it that you have found is your true nature Mh ?

Peace & Contentment. Simple answer.

 

But, to expound, I know in my heart (deeply rooted in my mind) that I have always been an Anarchist. For the better part of my life I had to do what others wanted me to do even though it likely wasn't something I would do naturally.

 

To live according to one's inspirations (wu wei) is a wonderful experience. I now live that life when I am home to about 95% of the time. But even when I am home I must sometimes do what needs be done whether I am inspired naturally to do such or not.

 

When we look up into the rest of the universe we see things happening naturally, according to the principles of Tao. We humans have modified these principles in order to satisfy the needs of our societies. These man-made principles interfer with many people's naturalness.

 

Now, understand, if I were younger and still in need of employment I would still be playing the game; still doing the will of others even if it conflicted with my inspirations at the time. We need a means of support. Get a job. Get married. Have offspring. And all that other stuff. I have been through most of that.

 

But even now, I still have responsibilities: the fish, the gardens, and my other hobbies. And I still need go out and buy food and other living supplies and materials.

 

Of course, I can say that my true nature is such and such. This is because my true nature is whatever I am doing at any given point in time in most cases. It's like trying to define what "I" am.

[Stosh]

Peace & Contentment. Simple answer.

 

But, to expound, I know in my heart (deeply rooted in my mind) that I have always been an Anarchist. For the better part of my life I had to do what others wanted me to do even though it likely wasn't something I would do naturally.

 

To live according to one's inspirations (wu wei) is a wonderful experience. I now live that life when I am home to about 95% of the time. But even when I am home I must sometimes do what needs be done whether I am inspired naturally to do such or not.

 

When we look up into the rest of the universe we see things happening naturally, according to the principles of Tao. We humans have modified these principles in order to satisfy the needs of our societies. These man-made principles interfer with many people's naturalness.

 

Now, understand, if I were younger and still in need of employment I would still be playing the game; still doing the will of others even if it conflicted with my inspirations at the time. We need a means of support. Get a job. Get married. Have offspring. And all that other stuff. I have been through most of that.

 

But even now, I still have responsibilities: the fish, the gardens, and my other hobbies. And I still need go out and buy food and other living supplies and materials.

 

Of course, I can say that my true nature is such and such. This is because my true nature is whatever I am doing at any given point in time in most cases. It's like trying to define what "I" am.

Thats really a very nice way to retire , and reverberates your sentiment well,

connecting it with wu wei though ,implies an interp of wu wei I am not sure I have heard before.

Would you say this is consistent or inconsistent ,with the general concept as most view it?

and does this dao , fit with the dao of Lao by coincidence ? or intent.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Stosh

[spatha]

Daoism is not Dao.

 

Good )

[Marblehead]

Thats really a very nice way to retire , and reverberates your sentiment well,

connecting it with wu wei though ,implies an interp of wu wei I am not sure I have heard before.

Would you say this is consistent or inconsistent ,with the general concept as most view it?

and does this dao , fit with the dao of Lao by coincidence ? or intent.

I hesitated when the thought of wu wei came to mind while making that post but it felt right so I included it.

 

We wei really is about inspired action or uninspired non-action. I know that in my life living mostly based on inspiration is somehow so natural I can't help likening it to the Way of Tao. A comet heads toward Earth because it is time for the comet to head toward Earth. That's all. Nothing supernatural.

 

I think what I was speaking to is more in line with Chuang Tzu's philosophy than it is with Lao Tzu's. But then, Lao Tzu spoke of wu wei and being natural so I think it would be consistent with his as well. And remember, as the story goes, after he retired he went wandering off into the unknown, following his footprints that he hadn't made yet.

 

You used a key word regarding wu wei and Tao: intent. I will suggest that the greater the intent the less wu wei and the less Tao our actions (or inactions) will be.

[Stosh]

I see, Mh, I had a dream last night which spoke to this idea of non-intent , and in my dream one character was 'passive knower' and the other 'obedient doer' ,, and I wonder if such personification of abstracts is really a type of simplification so that the ideas are easier to relate to.

Do you think Wu wei might be well personified by either the experience of 'passive knower' or 'obedient doer' ? or perhaps you feel that the 'filling of unfinished footprints' or a 'rider of flowing stream' are more potent descriptors to you ? of following dao in a manner of wu wei. ( thusly either way there is an implied curtain between intent and experience.. ( I hope thats a clear enough presentation of the question)

[Marblehead]

Good question. Caused me thought ahd I will be thinking on it while responding as well.

 

I actually like your "passive knower" and "obedient doer".

 

Passive knower - uninspired state of wu wei but yet fully aware.

 

Obedient doer - inspired condition of action, but without alterior intent.

 

The footprint thing was the first time I have ever used that phrase. It just popped into my mind and felt right saying it.

 

I have a hard time being original with going with the flow of water. I have never felt comfortable with the thought. I'm likely adding too much to it thereby making it a contradiction to me.

 

Chidragon spoke well the last time we had a discussion of wu wei regarding action without alterior intent. As I mentioned, the comet heads toward Earth without intent. Sure, it may cause great harm but that really and truely must not be considered. But then again, it may miss Earth and no harm done. For the comet and Tao it doesn't matter. (Beyond good and evil?)

[Stosh]

Good question. Caused me thought ahd I will be thinking on it while responding as well.

 

I actually like your "passive knower" and "obedient doer".

 

Passive knower - uninspired state of wu wei but yet fully aware.

 

Obedient doer - inspired condition of action, but without alterior intent.

 

The footprint thing was the first time I have ever used that phrase. It just popped into my mind and felt right saying it.

 

I have a hard time being original with going with the flow of water. I have never felt comfortable with the thought. I'm likely adding too much to it thereby making it a contradiction to me.

 

Chidragon spoke well the last time we had a discussion of wu wei regarding action without alterior intent. As I mentioned, the comet heads toward Earth without intent. Sure, it may cause great harm but that really and truely must not be considered. But then again, it may miss Earth and no harm done. For the comet and Tao it doesn't matter. (Beyond good and evil?)

Im not crazy with the idea of swishing around like the ty-d-bowl man either , the analogy takes away any impression of having a part to play , you might as well not be there since you dont care, and nothing else does either! ..so though that might be how the perspective might be from the tao or comets or rivers point of view,, we arent the tao, a comet, or a river. Right?

Someone said once ,, that the buddhist message, had to be watered down with inconsistencies otherwise one would potentially go to far with it ,( though the wording was different) , this water thing may be similar.

 

A better water thingie , would be to use it as a metaphor for human endeavor ,rather than a swishing drowning fate.

Water left alone settles down , its 'fine with that' ,, should the bowl be tipped in favor of it continuing onward to its lowest most stable ease,,, without hesitation -it heads thataway.

Its just the nature of water to do that, be flexible ,, and yet with its own thing to do. Self calming and at peace with its circumstance , but not frozen or clinging to the temporary because the night approaches and it still has many miles to go before it fulfuills its destiny and comes to a final rest.

screw everyone elses baboonish tendencies , you have your own way to go.

 

Goodnight. I too need to spend a while longer getting to know my own new perspective which I was in question of earlier, and my impateince was premature.

[Marblehead]

Well, no, I'm not a comet. I care. You know, about myself, my fish, my gardens, even the birds and cats that come over to eat.

 

I think the point I was trying to make is the the universe would still be perfect even if Earth wasn't here.

 

Chuang Tzu used the concept of water very effectively, I think. One of my favorites is that if you leave muddied water undisturbed it will eventually become clear. A testament, IMO, for the need of meditation on occasion.

 

Yes, water will follow its own nature. I'm not water. Therefore I must follow my own nature.