Cultivation of Inner heart nature

[Vitalii]

Master Qiu Chuji said:

Generally speaking, in cultivating Reality and cherishing the Dao, you must rely on the accumulation of deeds and the stringing together of merit. If you do not strain your will power and have a determined heart, it is difficult to transcend ordinariness and enter into sacredness.

 

[Stosh]

The ordinary inner nature of the man must itself be sacred ,

for what else is out there, to assign judgement of merit ?

and his merit must lie in the man reflecting or adjudicating upon himself.

 

So Mr Chuji is quite wrong,

though he is saying something that many want to hear

because people want to believe they have merit ,,

so he has told them of a means to indicate it to themselves.

[C T]

The master's advice is absolutely spot-on.

[Stosh]

So far, I see nothing in your post that can counter the point I posted , so thanks for the implied admission of endorsement.

[C T]

Did the master implied denial of man's inherently pure nature? I didn't pick that up in what he had said. Sorry, but i am not the sharpest tool in the box compared to all the others here.

[Kasuku]

if u can see perceive, remember, experience, or know it... it is not you...

What is merit prior to words,

What is mind prior to language

Where do words come from,

Whos noticing words,

Who are you prior to mind,

 

I say best thing to do is reject all words and concepts and perceptions and beliefs even for just an hour and see all your problems, paths, have to's dissolve away, try sink back into true innate buddha nature.

 

All are appearances on Consciousness/emptiness....

 

Its hard but even that is only a belief

[ChiDragon]

The ordinary inner nature of the man must itself be sacred ,

for what else is out there, to assign judgement of merit ?

and his merit must lie in the man reflecting or adjudicating upon himself.

 

So Mr Chuji is quite wrong,

though he is saying something that many want to hear

because people want to believe they have merit ,,

so he has told them of a means to indicate it to themselves.

Mr. Chuji is not quite wrong but it was only the mistranslation of his words was wrong.

[thelerner]

There is enough need in the world; for food, understanding, simple kindness that I don't care if its done for the sake of accumulating merit points or to soothe a spaghetti god. Its great when its done with a pure unselfish heart but its more important that it gets done. Just because there's need.

 

Personally I believe there are many benefits of karma yoga. It improves character, lessens the ego, strengthens the community but most importantly it (should) help others. Theorists can point to situations where such action does harm, all I can say in such situations find a better way to help 'smarter'.

[Vitalii]

Master Ma Danyang said:

Outer daily sustenance [is as follows]: You are strongly forbidden to see the faults of others, boast of your own virtue, envy the wise and the talented, give rise to ignorant worldly thoughts, [or to commit] the various misdeeds of a desiring mind.

[ChiDragon]

 

Master Ma Danyang said:

Outer daily sustenance [is as follows]: You are strongly forbidden to see the faults of others, boast of your own virtue, envy the wise and the talented, give rise to ignorant worldly thoughts, [or to commit] the various misdeeds of a desiring mind.

I would say all these are part of the cultivation of Xing Kung.

Edited January 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Vitalii]

I would say all these are part of the cultivation of Xing Kung.

 

Of course, Xing = Inner heart nature

[ChiDragon]

 

Master Qiu Chuji said:

 

Generally speaking, in cultivating Reality and cherishing the Dao, you must rely on the accumulation of deeds and the stringing together of merit. If you do not strain your will power and have a determined heart, it is difficult to transcend ordinariness and enter into sacredness.

 

Okay! My question is why does a QuanZhen(全真) Taoist wants to deal with reality? IMHO It seems to me it is contradicting. If a Taoist wants to face reality, then why would one seclude oneself by isolating from the rest of the world and become abstinent?

Edited January 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[C T]

 

Okay! My question is why does a QuanZhen(全真) Taoist wants to deal with reality? IMHO It seems to me it is contradicting. If a Taoist wants to face reality, then why would one seclude oneself by isolating from the rest of the world and become abstinent?

Are these the 3 trick questions, Chi Dragon sir?

 

You said, "If a Taoist wants to face reality..." -- what exactly are you asking? Be very clear, because your question can easily be misconstrued.

[Vitalii]

 

If a Taoist wants to face reality, then why would one seclude oneself by isolating from the rest of the world and become abstinent?

 

because it is a big mistake and misunderstanding of the teaching

[Vitalii]

The ordinary inner nature of the man must itself be sacred ,

for what else is out there, to assign judgement of merit ?

and his merit must lie in the man reflecting or adjudicating upon himself.

 

So Mr Chuji is quite wrong,

though he is saying something that many want to hear

because people want to believe they have merit ,,

so he has told them of a means to indicate it to themselves.

 

What exactly is Qiu Chuji wrong about?

should people not rely on the accumulation of deeds and the stringing together of merit? or should people not strain their will power and have a determined heart?

[NotVoid]

Some people here seem to be trying to compare apples and oranges,

and then judge or come to conclusions based on their personal preference

of apples versus oranges. Qiu Chuji appears to be speaking from practical personal

experience. Some others appear to be trying compare practical personal experience to

intellectual concepts which appear to make 'sense' to them, and to which they personally

hold dear. Personal and practical experience is personal and practical experience. It is what it is.

There is no requirement for it to make sense on an intellectual level in regards to such concepts as

are being discussed here. This is where so many people in these modern times seem to get

tripped up.

Edited January 16, 2014 by NotVoid

[Stosh]

Did the master implied denial of man's inherently pure nature? I didn't pick that up in what he had said. Sorry, but i am not the sharpest tool in the box compared to all the others here.

Sir , Ive seen your posts , you are no dull blade.

Who is smartest, ? I have no idea ,and I dont even consider that to be a clear ,, thingie.

He said ordinariness , was not sacredness and needed to be transcended .

In '"low religion" the state of man is inherently faulty and requires the grace to be attained ( like in Christianity's Adam and eve and all that )

In "high religion" Like the eastern traditions, the general idea is that man himself ,by his nature is an expression of the sacred -whatever.

Anyway , thats second hand speculation to an extent , because I have little to no personal knowlege of what "everyone" believes in either east or west... and also consider these divisions to be sketchy thingies.

 

So thats supposed to be my response to your question-challenge , mine still remains, for you,, and even if its one we disagree on its an opportunity for you to clarify the basis for claiming a thing has merit according to your own tradition.

What is it that can assign merit if not the man himself?

[Stosh]

Mr. Chuji is not quite wrong but it was only the mistranslation of his words was wrong.

Well OK , one can't properly hold my feet to the fire for that though , so do you want to express the other translation for comparison? now that youve spiked my curiosity, giving me a fresh chance to agree with him?

[Jetsun]

 

What exactly is Qiu Chuji wrong about?

should people not rely on the accumulation of deeds and the stringing together of merit? or should people not strain their will power and have a determined heart?

 

If a man is inherently pure and sacred he doesn't need to strain the will power and have a determined heart to become sacred.

[ChiDragon]

Are these the 3 trick questions, Chi Dragon sir?

 

You said, "If a Taoist wants to face reality..." -- what exactly are you asking? Be very clear, because your question can easily be misconstrued.

Yes, they are trick questions. It was meant for those who would understood. Indeed, it is not easy to make it understood with words by anyone.

[Stosh]

 

What exactly is Qiu Chuji wrong about?

should people not rely on the accumulation of deeds and the stringing together of merit? or should people not strain their will power and have a determined heart?

As its written ,, He is is wrong That there is merit ( objectively it doesnt exist ),

and wrong that it can be 'gained' , because 'merit' is purely subjective,, IMO

and wrong that there is some difference between sacred and profane or ordinary in this case

 

Rhetorically speaking ..

Is it really a strain for you to be a decent person? or does it happily feed back to you having gotten on the "right" track.

Karmically, or otherwise, reaping what one has sown.

 

Besides, the logic of the tao path is not to strain , that it is counterproductive.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Some people here seem to be trying to compare apples and oranges,

and then judge or come to conclusions based on their personal preference

of apples versus oranges. Qiu Chuji appears to be speaking from practical personal

experience. Some others appear to be trying compare practical personal experience to

intellectual concepts which appear to make 'sense' to them, and to which they personally

hold dear. Personal and practical experience is personal and practical experience. It is what it is.

There is no requirement for it to make sense on an intellectual level in regards to such concepts as

are being discussed here. This is where so many people in these modern times seem to get

tripped up.

Well , we each can stand on a soapbox and shout out the name of the fruit we like best ,,

But

my opinion is not going to swing by majority vote and neither is Mr Chuji's.

the presentation of the intellectual angle which one finds persuasive

represents an opportunity to others, to perhaps,

find more cohesiveness in their own understanding.

Maybe remove some illusions which are a detriment.

Such explanation represents a bridge to finding more understanding of one another.

 

Just saying " I like oranges better- and you cant make me change my mind" offers nothing.

[C T]

In Vajrayana Buddhism (sorry, thats all i can speak from, being the limit of my practical knowledge) we are often encouraged to unite wisdom (seeing emptiness) with method (cultivating and applying compassion). This is a safeguard against being either too spaced out by emptiness or too embittered by the mundane task of keeping, as much as possible, the precepts and the daily grinds of actual practice.

 

Therefore, one can say, seeing emptiness is the View, and applying compassion is the Conduct.

 

The above must work in unison to avoid a lopsided spiritual development. Nagarjuna said (paraphrased), "Its really sad that some people cling so tightly to reality, but sadder still are those who cling to emptiness." Why did he said it this way? Because its easier to get stuck on the notions surrounding 'emptiness' and hard to climb back up from inside that literal well.

 

To avoid being caught in extremes, practitioners try to observe uniting View and Conduct. This is very important. Just View alone leads to the potential for not caring at all, and just Conduct alone leads to too much caring, until one gets bogged down by all the misery and stuff one sees each day.

 

Being inherently pure means one is like a garuda, already endowed with filght from before birth, meaning, pure and groundless by nature (groundless means primordially free, without a beginning). But, this nature of being able to fly will be of no use if the garuda refuses to fly, and sits around simply thinking, "Oh, i am Garuda, king of birds. I was already king before i was born, hence i have no need to do anything." This is a common attitude which is the bane of spiritual accomplishment. Hence, the very profound Dzogchen reminder: Swooping down from above, while climbing up from below. In one way of seeing, this means to first recognize one's nature as already perfect, not needing any addition, while at the same time, working on the mundane level according to our capacity, thru relative practices, using relative conditions.

 

Padmasambhava's reminder is always with me. He observed thus, "Even though my View is as high as the sky, i must keep my Conduct finer than barley flour."

 

That is why, it is said that the realization of innate perfection is only one half of the deal. There has to be an on-going performance of deeds and the accumulation of merit to compliment and complete the person. This is the practicality of Vajrayana, for what it is worth.

 

Its about how best we can integrate both wisdom and means. Emptiness and compassion. View and conduct.

 

 

 

 

(My apologies to Vitalii for any harsh words that i may have unknowingly used in this post.)

 

 

 

 

edit: tidied up some words and phrases.

Edited January 16, 2014 by C T

[Vitalii]

As its written ,, He is is wrong That there is merit ( objectively it doesnt exist ),

and wrong that it can be 'gained' , because 'merit' is purely subjective,, IMO

and wrong that there is some difference between sacred and profane or ordinary in this case

 

Rhetorically speaking ..

Is it really a strain for you to be a decent person? or does it happily feed back to you having gotten on the "right" track.

Karmically, or otherwise, reaping what one has sown.

 

Besides, the logic of the tao path is not to strain , that it is counterproductive.

 

He said ordinariness , was not sacredness and needed to be transcended .

 

this is theory and philosophy, and it not only might not help much, but it may further alienate people from the Path.

 

people can not immediately transcend duality, so they have a routine and holiness.

You should not get confused with what should be done at the beginning and what you need to do later.

Therefore, the Taoist masters say about the importance of the cultivation of virtue.

[ChiDragon]

Well OK , one can't properly hold my feet to the fire for that though , so do you want to express the other translation for comparison? now that youve spiked my curiosity, giving me a fresh chance to agree with him?

 

Yes, I would if vatilii would give me the quote from its origin. Just based on the word "reality", it seems to be improper translation for "QhanZhen(全真)" as I had indicated before and still holds true for my position.