Cultivation of Inner heart nature

[Vitalii]

修真 - cultivating perfection / cultivating truth / cultivating reality

[ChiDragon]

修真 - cultivating perfection / cultivating truth / cultivating reality

Would that be suffice which leaves the option to include the other two....???

 

 

@ Stosh....

A Taoist doesn't cultivate for perfection nor reality. For example, one to become an immortal is not a reality.

Edited January 16, 2014 by ChiDragon

[NotVoid]

Because they do not contend,

there is no one to contend with.

[Stosh]

Because they do not contend,there is no one to contend with.

Have you ever witnessed the proverbial schoolyard bully picking on the innocuous? Or on large scale, would Hitler have quit his expansion and exterminations if he hadnt been opposed?

While as a rule of thumb , avoidance of conflict can work in some situations, since not everyone is coming from that same attitude.. acting like prey, or abdicating ones position, doesnt always negate conflict and can even promote it further.

and that is in addition ! to my point that clamming up, changing the subject, avoidance of exchange, offers nothing compared fo honest disclosure interaction etc.

[Stosh]

Would that be suffice which leaves the option to include the other two....???@ Stosh....A Taoist doesn't cultivate for perfection nor reality. For example, one to become an immortal is not a reality.

Im sure for some thats true depending on how one reads that. I dont think there is perfection nor are there immortals, but on the same note I dont choose my opinions in order to comply with dogma , and agree that theres plenty of room for that alternative view to be. considered Taoist.

Now all I expect is for them to extend the same generosity to me and we'll be even. But figure they wont cant and dont.

[Stosh]

this is theory and philosophy, and it not only might not help much, but it may further alienate people from the Path. people can not immediately transcend duality, so they have a routine and holiness.You should not get confused with what should be done at the beginning and what you need to do later. Therefore, the Taoist masters say about the importance of the cultivation of virtue.

Well I prefsr not to treat people like children ,tell fairy tales assuming they cant handle the truth and essentially compromise my honesty in the process .That honesty and respect is what should prevail from the beginning even if it is difficult to handle. The things people best hear are the last thing they want to hear..Would you wantt to be deceived by those you trust rather than have them level with you because it was uncomfortable? eventually you would have to break a few eggs either way... people have illusions because they love them.

[Stosh]

In Vajrayana Buddhism (sorry, thats all i can speak from, being the limit of my practical knowledge) we are often encouraged to unite wisdom (seeing emptiness) with method (cultivating and applying compassion). This is a safeguard against being either too spaced out by emptiness or too embittered by the mundane task of keeping, as much as possible, the precepts and the daily grinds of actual practice. Therefore, one can say, seeing emptiness is the View, and applying compassion is the Conduct. The above must work in unison to avoid a lopsided spiritual development. Nagarjuna said (paraphrased), "Its really sad that some people cling so tightly to reality, but sadder still are those who cling to emptiness." Why did he said it this way? Because its easier to get stuck on the notions surrounding 'emptiness' and hard to climb .back up from inside that literal well. To avoid being caught in extremes, practitioners try to observe uniting View and Conduct. This is very important. Just View alone leads to the potential for not caring at all, and just Conduct alone leads to too much caring, until one gets bogged down by all the misery and stuff one sees each day. Being inherently pure means one is like a garuda, already endowed with filght from before birth, meaning, pure and groundless by nature (groundless means primordially free, without a beginning). But, this nature of being able to fly will be of no use if the garuda refuses to fly, and sits around simply thinking, "Oh, i am Garuda, king of birds. I was already king before i was born, hence i have no need to do anything." This is a common attitude which is the bane of spiritual accomplishment. Hence, the very profound Dzogchen reminder: Swooping down from above, while climbing up from below. In one way of seeing, this means to first recognize one's nature as already perfect, not needing any addition, while at the same time, working on the mundane level according to our capacity, thru relative practices, using relative conditions. Padmasambhava's reminder is always with me. He observed thus, "Even though my View is as high as the sky, i must keep my Conduct finer than barley flour." That is why, it is said that the realization of innate perfection is only one half of the deal. There has to be an on-going performance of deeds and the accumulation of merit to compliment and complete the person. This is the practicality of Vajrayana, for what it is worth. Its about how best we can integrate both wisdom and means. Emptiness and compassion. View and conduct. (My apologies to Vitalii for any harsh words that i may have unknowingly used in this post.) edit: tidied up some words and phrases.

Nicely stated, Im tempted to just leave it be..but the main issue against it os that the position is self negating the philosophy suggests the behaviors are misled and the behaviors suggest the rationale is wrong..this may NOT be the case ..Id expect wisdom lies in resolving the contradictions.

But im not sure how that applies to my question about what thing, not a man ,decides whats good from bad...promotes compassion over dispassion etc.

[Vitalii]

Master Jin Zhenren said:

"If you want true deeds, you should cultivate benevolence and accumulate virtue, by relieving the poor and rescuing those who suffer. When you see people in strife, always put to action your mind [that desires] to help them. At times [you should] persuade good people to enter the Dao and engage in training. In whatever you do, put others first and yourself last. Be selfless [in your interactions with] the myriad things. This is true deeds.”

[C T]

Nicely stated, Im tempted to just leave it be..but the main issue against it os that the position is self negating the philosophy suggests the behaviors are misled and the behaviors suggest the rationale is wrong..this may NOT be the case ..Id expect wisdom lies in resolving the contradictions.

But im not sure how that applies to my question about what thing, not a man ,decides whats good from bad...promotes compassion over dispassion etc.

i think perhaps it is very accurate to assume that the ultimate revelation and realization in Buddhist practice is to see thru the limitations of tendencies to grasp at a self, and by this clinging, which also increases the reflexes of aversion at the same time, it increases the potential for unpleasant and unsatisfactory outcomes to manifest. Your observation that wisdom lies in resolving the contradictions is a really good one, because this self-created state of confusion is a very fundamental cause of emotional upheavals and ignorance in beings' minds.

 

As to your question about what thing decides whats good from bad.. i guess the fundamental good heart of beings decide. Some call it higher nature, wisdom mind, buddha nature etc. It all points to the same thing, that every being wants to be at ease and satisfied, with as little threat to their state of well-being as possible.

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Stosh]

i think perhaps it is very accurate to assume that the ultimate revelation and realization in Buddhist practice is to see thru the limitations of tendencies to grasp at a self, and by this clinging, which also increases the reflexes of aversion at the same time, it increases the potential for unpleasant and unsatisfactory outcomes to manifest. Your observation that wisdom lies in resolving the contradictions is a really good one, because this self-created state of confusion is a very fundamental cause of emotional upheavals and ignorance in beings' minds.

 

As to your question about what thing decides whats good from bad.. i guess the fundamental good heart of beings decide. Some call it higher nature, wisdom mind, buddha nature etc. It all points to the same thing, that every being wants to be at ease and satisfied, with as little threat to their state of well-being as possible.

Would this "good hearted being" with the imaginative capacity for morality,, be a human 'being' , and can we claim agreement that the basis of what is called 'good' is ease and satisfaction of said 'beings' though they be but a situational subset of the cosmos, and therefore subject to the constraints of subsets of the cosmos ? If so, then ,, though we might be considered religious or secular adherents , fundamentally we are on the same page and bridge a potential cause of emotional conflict and upheaval.

[C T]

Jing-->Chi-->Shen-->Tao

 

At the Chi->Shen level, the practitioner has not gotten his monkey mind in control. Ask him to just be. To be transcendent. To stop thinking. Result? Absolutely nothing. In practice, this is the reality I've observed.

 

So the most common method, irrespective of the tradition, is to channel the mind in a one-pointed concentration, in a positive direction. Towards building virtue. Accumulation of merit. Cleaning the mirror of the mind, so to speak. There is a reason why even modern masters like Yan Xin says, "Virtue is the foundation of all qigong methods." Virtue is a practical demand for a serious cultivator -- it burns the yin qi and refines it to cleaner energy.

 

At the Shen-->Tao stage, however, the practitioner must let go even notions of merit and virtue. To gradually learn how to rest in the emptiness. In his own nature. If the previous stage is cleansing the mirror, at this level the mirror no longer exists. This level is absolute.

 

The actual practice is not linear, of course. Both non-action and action can and should be practiced together. Their balance in accordance to the student's development. An experienced teacher can see which stage the student is at and guide her appropriately.

freezing this, just in case you decide to delete it.

 

you must resist the temptation to delete your posts. So many good ones in the past, all gone. Such a waste.

[Stosh]

Jing-->Chi-->Shen-->Tao

 

At the Chi->Shen level, the practitioner has not gotten his monkey mind in control. Ask him to just be. To be transcendent. To stop thinking. Result? Absolutely nothing. In practice, this is the reality I've observed.

 

So the most common method, irrespective of the tradition, is to channel the mind in a one-pointed concentration, in a positive direction. Towards building virtue. Accumulation of merit. Cleaning the mirror of the mind, so to speak. There is a reason why even modern masters like Yan Xin says, "Virtue is the foundation of all qigong methods." Virtue is a practical demand for a serious cultivator -- it burns the yin qi and refines it to cleaner energy.

 

At the Shen-->Tao stage, however, the practitioner must let go even notions of merit and virtue. To gradually learn how to rest in the emptiness. In his own nature. If the previous stage is cleansing the mirror, at this level the mirror no longer exists. This level is absolute.

 

The actual practice is not linear, of course. Both non-action and action can and should be practiced together. Their balance in accordance to the student's development. An experienced teacher can see which stage the student is at and guide her appropriately.

Did you say cleaning the mind is accumulation of merit? that would render animals, the comatose,the dead ,highly meritorious.. so all youd have to do is wait and you'll achieve your goals with no effort at all.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Stosh

[C T]

Would this "good hearted being" with the imaginative capacity for morality,, be a human 'being' , and can we claim agreement that the basis of what is called 'good' is ease and satisfaction of said 'beings' though they be but a situational subset of the cosmos, and therefore subject to the constraints of subsets of the cosmos ? If so, then ,, though we might be considered religious or secular adherents , fundamentally we are on the same page and bridge a potential cause of emotional conflict and upheaval.

Its much more than mere morals involved, kind sir, though that would be a strong factor to consider, relative to the individual, i guess. The desire for ease fans out to cover all sentient beings, not just humans. As such, though there are imagined constraints, such exist only in the minds of the supposedly most intelligent species of them all.

 

Yes, we are basically on the same page in terms of finding a solution to resolve self-caused upheavals spanning the various levels of human existence, which ultimately affect the existential balance of all beings and the ecological soundness they each depend on.

Edited January 17, 2014 by C T

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Stosh]

More so the reverse. Accumulation of merit is cleansing of the mind. The mind is merely a function of our original energy. Merit and virtue can purify this original energy. Cleansed at the root, the mind can then serve its proper function of pure awareness of energy.

Thats sticking to the idea that merit and virtue exist and have a cleansing aspect on a third thing 'original energy'.

That energy can be impure , ???? and

Then there is judgement suggested, that awareness of energy is "proper", according to whom?

[Stosh]

Its much more than mere morals involved, kind sir, though that would be a strong factor to consider, relative to the individual, i guess. The desire for ease fans out to cover all sentient beings, not just humans. As such, though there are imagined constraints, such exist only in the minds of the supposedly most intelligent species of them all.

 

Yes, we are basically on the same page in terms of finding a solution to resolve self-caused upheavals spanning the various levels of human existence, which ultimately affect the existential balance of all beings and the ecological soundness they each depend on.

So ,as you see it, does my cat have merit , which my confusion obscures from me -(mine)?

...

Taoiseasy's opinion , seems expressed ,that an animal is less meritorious, or beyond merit, because its view is not obscured. Which would leave men alone among all creatures as possessing of a trait of impurity relative to some energy. ( thats low religion again, man bad -everything else good ) .....and also that the removal of this impurity is also meritorious! which makes no sense to me.

 

Your stance seems to include humanity on the spectrum of the sentient beasts

,so then to me, this would suggest, that people may be just as clearly- or partly- "beyond" merit just as my cat is.

Which I could agree with because there is no such thing as merit in the first place.

So ,The illusion that there is merit is part of the obstruction to seeing things as they really are.

Thats why they call it an illusion.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Stosh

[C T]

So ,as you see it, does my cat have merit , which my confusion obscures from me -(mine)?

...

Taoiseasy's opinion , seems expressed ,that an animal is less meritorious, or beyond merit, because its view is not obscured. Which would leave men alone among all creatures as possessing of a trait of impurity relative to some energy. ( thats low religion again, man bad -everything else good ) .....and also that the removal of this impurity is also meritorious! which makes no sense to me.

 

Your stance seems to include humanity on the spectrum of the sentient beasts

,so then to me, this would suggest, that people may be just as clearly- or partly- "beyond" merit just as my cat is.

Which I could agree with because there is no such thing as merit in the first place.

So ,The illusion that there is merit is part of the obstruction to seeing things as they really are.

Thats why they call it an illusion.

My apologies, but i cannot see where that particular matter regarding animals having less merit was implied in Taoiseasy's post. If you could point it out would be good, cos i might have missed it somehow.

 

Not sure how other traditions view this subject of merit, but in Buddhism there is no inherent clause within the practice to make the practitioner think that he or she is bad, sinful, guilt-ridden, full of weaknesses to the point that he or she has to do penance as an act of redemption.

 

I think i know what you are saying... since men are inherently pure, why go thru the hardship of accumulating virtue and merit, right? In response, i think what the masters here (mentioned in this thread) and elsewhere in other traditions, namely, Buddhist ones, are saying is that the very act of cultivating merit and performing virtuous deeds is the outpouring of this state of purity. In other words, i think what they are pointing to is that there is a symbiotic process happening all at once.

 

As the cultivation takes on greater meaning, there is a natural enlargement of one's capacity to touch all the hidden, inherent qualities which all beings possess, namely, joy, happiness, goodwill, natural caring, and so on. To put it in another way, the practice of accumulating merit actually happens as a spontaneous outcome of realizing one's own pure nature ~ amazingly, it goes both ways at the same time: realizing one's intrinsically pure nature spontaneously makes one want to participate in a diversity of activities which are positive, self-enhancing and also other-enhancing.

 

Animals also have the same nature but due to their position of sentiency, they are limited in their ways of expression, as each of the other classes of beings are in their own way.

 

Therefore, i would certainly argue that yes, your cat definitely has merit, and just as deserving of love and cherishing as any other being.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Did you say cleaning the mind is accumulation of merit? that would render animals, the comatose,the dead ,highly meritorious.. so all youd have to do is wait and you'll achieve your goals with no effort at all.

 

A mind free of fetters is not necessarily also a mind lacking thought (thoughts aren't a problem, delusion, malice, and clinging are), and any kind of mind is very different from a blank unconscious nothingness.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

Taoiseasy's opinion , seems expressed ,that an animal is less meritorious, or beyond merit, because its view is not obscured.

An animal can have delusions, craving and malice just as a human. The ideas of things having substantial intrinsic nature isolated from other things and things being the one and only reliable source of happiness, exists in animals on an intuitive level.

 

The difference is that humans have more developed mental faculties, so we can put our delusions into philosophical terminology if we wish, consciously recognise and question them, and can also cultivate in ways that undermine our delusion and unveil our Buddha-nature, which is no more developed in a human than an animal.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Seeker of Tao

[Stosh]

My apologies, but i cannot see where that particular matter regarding animals having less merit was implied in Taoiseasy's post. If you could point it out would be good, cos i might have missed it somehow.

 

Not sure how other traditions view this subject of merit, but in Buddhism there is no inherent clause within the practice to make the practitioner think that he or she is bad, sinful, guilt-ridden, full of weaknesses to the point that he or she has to do penance as an act of redemption.

 

I think i know what you are saying... since men are inherently pure, why go thru the hardship of accumulating virtue and merit, right? In response, i think what the masters here (mentioned in this thread) and elsewhere in other traditions, namely, Buddhist ones, are saying is that the very act of cultivating merit and performing virtuous deeds is the outpouring of this state of purity. In other words, i think what they are pointing to is that there is a symbiotic process happening all at once.

 

As the cultivation takes on greater meaning, there is a natural enlargement of one's capacity to touch all the hidden, inherent qualities which all beings possess, namely, joy, happiness, goodwill, natural caring, and so on. To put it in another way, the practice of accumulating merit actually happens as a spontaneous outcome of realizing one's own pure nature ~ amazingly, it goes both ways at the same time: realizing one's intrinsically pure nature spontaneously makes one want to participate in a diversity of activities which are positive, self-enhancing and also other-enhancing.

 

Animals also have the same nature but due to their position of sentiency, they are limited in their ways of expression, as each of the other classes of beings are in their own way.

 

Therefore, i would certainly argue that yes, your cat definitely has merit, and just as deserving of love and cherishing as any other being.

You had said

i guess the fundamental good heart of beings decide

I wanted you to be more specific because beings could mean magical or animals etc. and my premise was that morality was the crreation of man specifically.

 

So I said

Would this "good hearted being" with the imaginative capacity for morality,, be a human 'being'

 

He said

At the Shen-->Tao stage, however, the practitioner must let go even notions of merit and virtue.

 

So I said

that would render animals, the comatose,the dead ,highly meritorious..

Because animals are generally considered to not have merit and virtue.

So a man at Shen --Tao (Level?) would then be similar to an animal as I see it implied.

having no illusions at work.

 

and He said

More so the reverse. Accumulation of merit is cleansing of the mind

Which seems to say animals are beyond merit,, that it is the cleansing (rather than the Shen Tao state) which is attaining merit ,,,,but that having it ! , one is then 'beyond' it.

So to test the boundaries of the implication I brought my cat into it ( shes a great stand in-cat being a short word ,- a natural thing ,-and she doesnt seem to mind : )

 

Whew!

Edited January 17, 2014 by Stosh

[Ish]

 

 

He said

At the Shen-->Tao stage, however, the practitioner must let go even notions of merit and virtue.

 

So I said

that would render animals, the comatose,the dead ,highly meritorious..

Because animals are generally considered to not have merit and virtue.

So a man at Shen --Tao (Level?) would then be similar to an animal as I see it implied.

having no illusions at work.

 

But are animals generally at the Shen -> Tao level?

No, so the instruction to let go of all notions - even of merit and virtue - is not relevant for them.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Ish

[Stosh]

My apologies, but i cannot see where that particular matter regarding animals having less merit was implied in Taoiseasy's post. If you could point it out would be good, cos i might have missed it somehow.

 

Not sure how other traditions view this subject of merit, but in Buddhism there is no inherent clause within the practice to make the practitioner think that he or she is bad, sinful, guilt-ridden, full of weaknesses to the point that he or she has to do penance as an act of redemption.

 

I think i know what you are saying... since men are inherently pure, why go thru the hardship of accumulating virtue and merit, right?

Sorry , thats exactly not what I am getting at,

I am getting at that there is no merit , there is no accumulation of merit

Not for me or you or my cat

 

What there really is ,is what actually happens , the cat is comfortable, she kills and eats mice, cares and raises her kittens in the way of cats etc,, she is what she is ,, its just my judgement that she is pleasantly fuzzy , that she is brutal with her food.. that she is a good cat to have around.

 

 

 

 

 

Animals also have the same nature but due to their position of sentiency, they are limited in their ways of expression, as each of the other classes of beings are in their own way.

 

Therefore, i would certainly argue that yes, your cat definitely has merit, and just as deserving of love and cherishing as any other being.

I do cherish her.

But in that sentence I imply much which is false on one level and true on another..

 

There is no distinct I, there is no distinct her , my emotions are entirely subjective...those are all illusory

 

ACCEPTING the illusory state of being me .. then I accept me as existing , and her likewise , in a cosmos we are distinct in ,

and my emotions which are directly experienced by me , are subjectively true. I attribute her merit , I pet her and feed her and take care of her,, she has importance TO ME.

 

But to the cosmos she is just a vortex in an invisible matrix, a fictional subset of an infinite whole connected to everything and for all time.

[Stosh]

But are animals generally at the Shen -> Tao level?

No, so the instruction to let go of all notions - even of merit and virtue - is not relevant for them.

Well it looked like CT was including both men and animals on a spectrum of merit having , and thats OK ,

( Im just trying to get a view of how they see things, how they link the logics of their faith )

but he'll have to answer to you on that ,because I deny 'merit having' at all!

I think Vitalii was getting me correctly ,(that I am talking about non-duality)

Edited January 18, 2014 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Look guys, The idea isnt exotic at all. Lets say you look at a hot woman..substitute a dide if you like.. and you say she is super attractive because she has... huge tracts of land. Well the dude next to you doesnt think so..it isnt that she doesnt have huge tracts of land.. its just that yall are considering from a personal subjective position. There is no reality to her attractiveness beyond the impression on the viewer. just as right and wrong are subjective opinions ..sometimes agreed upon.